Abortion Analogies

[JMartyr73340]

I saw a thread today which was asking whether it was valid to compare abortion to the Holocaust. I’m not a big fan of this comparison. Although, I do think there are aspects of it that are valid, especially if you consider an unborn child a human being.

I find Catholics often have trouble debating this issue in an effective way. Some Catholics take a very cerebral approach to the issue. They state the Church’s position well, but often fail to convey the magnitude and/or horror of what is going on. Other Catholics go to the other extreme and compare it to the Holocaust, as I mentioned.

I was thinking that a better comparison would be abortion and paedophilia. I think there are some very good things about this analogy:

1. In both cases, the heinous act is being done to a child.
2. In both cases the act is being done for selfish reasons. In the case of abortion, the motivation is (often) convenience. A woman has premarital sex, and accidentally gets pregnant. The woman does not want to go through the pain of having a child and raising it, so she decides to kill it instead. In the case of paedophilia, the person (usually a man) is doing it to gratify some perverse sexual desire. Both motivations are equally selfish and disturbing.
3. The comparison helps to convey the horror of what is being done in abortion.Our society has no trouble understanding the horror of a man abusing a child for his own pleasure, but it seems to have a lot of trouble understanding the horror of a woman killing a child for her own convenience. Logically, this does not make any sense. I suppose it is a testament to the effectiveness of feminist propaganda that our society can see the evil in the one act but not in the other.
4. Women often justify abortion by citing external and/or personal factors such as poverty and poor parenting. But the same circumstantial justification can be given for paedophilia. In fact, the circumstantial justifications for paedophilia are more compelling, since it has been psychologically proven that men who were abused often become abusers themselves. Yet, we have no problem condemning them and putting them in prison (as in the case of the Church scandals). If our society was logical, it would do the same to women who have abortions

What do you guys think? Offensive? Unfair? Not logical? Just looking for your opinion. Personally, I think political correctness is destroying our society, and Catholics need to get a little tougher if they’re going to make any real difference, especially on this issue.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I think it’s sound - except for one thing:

Your second explanation is where the problem occurs. Pedophilia when carried out to the point of abusing a child is done for selfish gratification. Pro-abortion people believe (in many cases, rightly) that abortion is not done for pleasure but because the woman legitimately has no other choice. It is a painful and horrible thing she has to go through so comparing a child molester to a woman who has an abortion is won’t work and is (in most cases) unfair.

I have found my best success comes when asking people to describe to me what happens in an abortion. After they describe the process (especially effective in a D&E or a saline flush abortion) I then tell them to fast-forward development to a two year old. How is it happening to a two year old any different than it happening to a two month (gentationally) old child? I always draw comparisons from pre-born to born, since one isn’t “more alive” just because they were privileged enough to pass through a vagina.

 

[John21652]

I saw a thread today which was asking whether it was valid to compare abortion to the Holocaust. I’m not a big fan of this comparison. Although, I do think there are aspects of it that are valid, especially if you consider an unborn child a human being.

I find Catholics often have trouble debating this issue in an effective way. Some Catholics take a very cerebral approach to the issue. They state the Church’s position well, but often fail to convey the magnitude and/or horror of what is going on. Other Catholics go to the other extreme and compare it to the Holocaust, as I mentioned.

I was thinking that a better comparison would be abortion and paedophilia. I think there are some very good things about this analogy:

1. In both cases, the heinous act is being done to a child.
2. In both cases the act is being done for selfish reasons. In the case of abortion, the motivation is (often) convenience. A woman has premarital sex, and accidentally gets pregnant. The woman does not want to go through the pain of having a child and raising it, so she decides to kill it instead. In the case of paedophilia, the person (usually a man) is doing it to gratify some perverse sexual desire. Both motivations are equally selfish and disturbing.
3. The comparison helps to convey the horror of what is being done in abortion.Our society has no trouble understanding the horror of a man abusing a child for his own pleasure, but it seems to have a lot of trouble understanding the horror of a woman killing a child for her own convenience. Logically, this does not make any sense. I suppose it is a testament to the effectiveness of feminist propaganda that our society can see the evil in the one act but not in the other.
4. Women often justify abortion by citing external and/or personal factors such as poverty and poor parenting. But the same circumstantial justification can be given for paedophilia. In fact, the circumstantial justifications for paedophilia are more compelling, since it has been psychologically proven that men who were abused often become abusers themselves. Yet, we have no problem condemning them and putting them in prison (as in the case of the Church scandals). If our society was logical, it would do the same to women who have abortions

What do you guys think? Offensive? Unfair? Not logical? Just looking for your opinion. Personally, I think political correctness is destroying our society, and Catholics need to get a little tougher if they’re going to make any real difference, especially on this issue.

In my opinion abortion can be compared to the holocaust. Not because of any numbers that may be involved, but because in both cases, the normal moral judgements of ordinary humans are suspended, even abrogated, under a propaganda that hides the true meaning of what is being done.

I have just finished reading a book called Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, by Harvard Professor of history, Timothy Snyder.

The book focuses on Poland and the Ukraine as a massive killing field under the brutal regimes of Stalin and Hitler. If you think Hitler’s holocaust was horrific, Snyder quotes figures from Stalin’s famines and atrocities that make Hitler’s Nazis seem positively amatuerish. However, what was common under both regimes was the suspension of morality and even the suspension of commonsense as ordinary people took part in the liquidation of other humans on a massive and brutal scale. The striking thing was how people rationalised away the reality of what they were doing. As an example, prior to World War II, Stalin inroduced collectivisation into the Ukrainian farmlands. Its associated inneficiencies caused a massive drop in output at a time when Stalin was demanding more and more grain that he could export for hard currency. His solution to the falling output was to demand more and more so that the peasants who produced the food eventually starved. Things became so bad and so rediculous that a starving peasant caught with food was summarily shot for stealing from the state. Those who did the shooting turned their eyes away from the fact that people were starving and declared that they were ‘enemies of the state’. This was going on even when Ukraininas turned to cannibalism to assuage their hunger. The Soviet state was able to produce all sorts of euphemisms that described the starving peasants as traitors and for describing the mass killings as necessary for the good of the state. The ability that people have for camoflauging what was really happening was quite chilling.

As an example, let me use a Marxist trick I learnt from the book.

Giving women the right to choose abortion when and as they desire has created a class of human beings who are denied the right to speak for themselves before a sentence of death is passed.

 

[JMartyr73340]

I think it’s sound - except for one thing: Your second explanation is where the problem occurs. Pedophilia when carried out to the point of abusing a child is done for selfish gratification. Pro-abortion people believe (in many cases, rightly) that abortion is not done for pleasure but because the woman legitimately has no other choice. It is a painful and horrible thing she has to go through so comparing a child molester to a woman who has an abortion is won’t work and is (in most cases) unfair.

I think I see the problem. It has to do with my use of the words “circumstances” and “motivation”. They are very similar. You confused my second and last point.

What you are actually trying to say is that in most cases of abortion **the circumstances ** of the woman are so bad that they compel her to kill her unborn child. I already answered this in my last point.

In the very few cases where there *are *extremely difficult circumstances, such as rape or extreme poverty (which is what you are actually talking about when you say “the woman has no choice”) - even these circumstances do not justify the taking of the child’s life, just like being sexually abused does not justify a person abusing a child.

A pro-choice person arguing that a woman has “no other choice” but to kill her unborn child is as absurd as saying that a paedophile has “no other choice” but to abuse a child because he was abused when he was young. In both cases, the tragic circumstances do not justify the later act. That was my last point.

Now let’s talk about motivation. As I said in my original post, the motivation(circumstances) for abortion is often inconvenience. Most women in North America who have an abortion see the child as a burden. They do not have the time, money or desire at that moment to raise the child, so they decide to kill it. In many other countries, women have abortions simply because the child is a girl instead of a boy, or because the child is mentally handicapped.

For these women who kill their unborn child simply because it is inconvenient (and I believe they are the majority) I argued that their motivation is as selfish and self-centered as the sexual-gratification motivation of paedophile who was not abused when he was young.

To summarize,

For both paedophilia and abortion, there are the extreme cases where the perpetrator actually has extreme circumstances which are compelling him or her to do the sin, and there are the non-extreme cases where the people are just being selfish and evil. In the extreme cases, the tragic circumstances don’t justify the act whether you are talking about paedophilia or abortion. In the non-extreme cases the people are just acting selfish and evil (actually demonic). In both cases, the comparison is fair, in my opinion.

By the way, my intention is not to attack women. I just think the abortion arguments on both sides (the Catholic holocaust comparers and the moderates) have become “stale”. I mean, they are not progressing, and they both have their defects. One offends Jews and the other is too soft. We need to shock, but without being extreme. I think my comparison works in that regard.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I think I see the problem. It has to do with my use of the words “circumstances” and “motivation”. They are very similar. You confused my second and last point.

What you are actually trying to say is that in most cases of abortion **the circumstances ** of the woman are so bad that they compel her to kill her unborn child. I already answered this in my last point.

In the very few cases where there *are *extremely difficult circumstances, such as rape or extreme poverty (which is what you are actually talking about when you say “the woman has no choice”) - even these circumstances do not justify the taking of the child’s life, just like being sexually abused does not justify a person abusing a child.

A pro-choice person arguing that a woman has “no other choice” but to kill her unborn child is as absurd as saying that a paedophile has “no other choice” but to abuse a child because he was abused when he was young. In both cases, the tragic circumstances do not justify the later act. That was my last point.

Now let’s talk about motivation. As I said in my original post, the motivation(circumstances) for abortion is often inconvenience. Most women in North America who have an abortion see the child as a burden. They do not have the time, money or desire at that moment to raise the child, so they decide to kill it. In many other countries, women have abortions simply because the child is a girl instead of a boy, or because the child is mentally handicapped.

For these women who kill their unborn child simply because it is inconvenient (and I believe they are the majority) I argued that their motivation is as selfish and self-centered as the sexual-gratification motivation of paedophile who was not abused when he was young.

To summarize,

For both paedophilia and abortion, there are the extreme cases where the perpetrator actually has extreme circumstances which are compelling him or her to do the sin, and there are the non-extreme cases where the people are just being selfish and evil. In the extreme cases, the tragic circumstances don’t justify the act whether you are talking about paedophilia or abortion. In the non-extreme cases the people are just acting selfish and evil (actually demonic). In both cases, the comparison is fair, in my opinion.

By the way, my intention is not to attack women. I just think the abortion arguments on both sides (the Catholic holocaust comparers and the moderates) have become “stale”. I mean, they are not progressing, and they both have their defects. One offends Jews and the other is too soft. We need to shock, but without being extreme. I think my comparison works in that regard.

I’m sorry I think you misunderstood me. I don’t disagree with your comparison I think it has great points. However, my money is on the fact that based on my experience with pro-aborts, they will immediately jump to what I said and invalidate your comaprison based on that. In my experience it’s better to avoid comparisons to other crimes because every sin is unique in many different ways. “its as bad as” and “it’s worse than” don’t really help things in this case IMHO because people need to see the error of abortion in and of itself.

Again, the comparison as you laid it out seems very reasonable to me. I don’t think that, despite that, it will get your very far with pro-aborts for the reason I gave.

 

[Warrior1979]

I really, really am disturbed by these analogies. Do people really sit around and learn about these subjects in great detail, then try to make analogies between them? Take my word for it…the general public finds these types of comparisons disturbing (as do I), and verbalizing these things to the general public does a grave disservice to the pro-life cause.

 

[manualman]

Yes, people ARE disturbed. This occurs because they’ve been conditioned to think of abortion as “an issue” rather than a horrific genocide. They don’t like to be disturbed from keeping abortion in its nice, sanitized “issue” box in their minds. Tiny ripped human body parts are NOT what comes to mind for most people today when you say “abortion.” That’s why we haven’t stopped it yet.

That said, Nazis are a far overplayed card to be useful in discussion.

Slavery is a superb analogy in many ways because even slavery’s supporters used EXACTLY the same argument as abortionists do (State’s rights / pro-choice on slavery versus Women’s rights / pro-choice on abortion). Slavery even produced a divided approach to opposing it. You had John Brown who tried to use violence to end slavery. Some today propose Brown as a hero, but in his own day even most abolitionists considered him a dangerous loon harmful to the cause. He was the clinic-bomber of his day. Pro-lifers shouldn’t consider Brown or bombers as heros as violence does detriment to the cause.

Abortion will never be outlawed until and unless people stop being distracted by smokescreens and face what abortion IS.

Child molestation will never be an effective analogy because untrue as it is, our culture today thinks child molestors are a catholic problem.

 

[beafedor]

In my opinion, this is a terribly bad analogy. Do you know how many abortions are forced on teenage girls by their parents or adult boyfriends, and pushed by health care professional on parents of a disabled child? People talk about “unwanted pregnancy” but they never tell the truth about “unwanted abortions”.

I’m one of many who had casual sex as you described that ended up in a pregnancy (a surprise but not a bad one). But was followed by an unwanted abortion pushed on me by my older boyfriend and the doctor who supported his decision. Nobody asked me/cared about my opinion.

I became pregnant a second time 7 years later. The father was abusive, a drug addict and twice my age. It might be very hard for some people to understand but I never wanted to abort that second baby either. But I did because I was scared of the father and yes you are reading the following words correctly: I HAVE ABORTED MY SON TO PROTECT HIM FROM HIS ABUSIVE FATHER. No mother in her right mind would do that. No woman in her right mind would date drug addict, old abusive men either. Thank God I know that now but I couldn’t see it then. I’m not trying to excuse myself for what I did, abortion is often followed by a chain reaction of bad decisions. We need God’s grace, we need healing and forgiveness, we need love. We need your compassion to help us all heal as a community, especially as the Church. After my 2 abortions, I was totally broken inside and it took me years to accept to face my sins and to seek God’s face. If you haven’t been involved in an abortion, you can’t imagine the guilt and the shame that women like me experience every day of their lives.
When I speak publicly about abortion, I always say that ‘abortion is a violent act that takes a life and harms a mother’. I don’t think that pedophilia nor any other sin can compare to that. It is a complex emotional issue for the post abortive woman and men. My boyfriend that i was talking about at the beginning who pushed the abortion on me told me a year later: “we have made a mistake. We have killed our daughter”. His eyes were filled with tears. As for me, I hated him for forcing the abortion and I hated him (and myself) even more for saying that. I was totally lost. That’s how I started to sleep with married men and abusive men. I needed to find some comfort, some “human warmth” and at the same time reenacting the trauma and abuse of aborting the children I loved. Life didn’t make any sense. What I just shared is pretty typical of post abortive women. Peace be with you.

 

[JReducation]

We would be unable to use Catholic moral theology or canon law to sustain the analogy between abortion and pedophilia. In moral theology there is a hierarchy of evil. Both of these are grave evils. However, abortion is more evil than pedophilia. That’s why we excommunicate for abortion and not for pedophilia.

In abortion you are taking an innocent life. In pedophilia you are doing grave harm to an innocent child, but you are not taking his life.

Pedophilia is an act against justice (the right of the child to be safe and treated with respect) and act against purity.

Abortion is an act against life.

That’s why it’s compared to the Shoah. In the Shoah, innocent lives were taken.

The highest moral crime that you can commit against man is to take the life of an innocent who is unable to defend himself.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[valentino]

It kind of amazing that out of seeming necessity our society can change long held definitions of words or the fundamental understanding of a word(s) to be defined differently.For centuries it was understood that life began at conception.But since we need a justification for abortion life can be changed to mean anything from conception to the birth of a baby.You no longer kill a baby when its 1 day after conception because its not a baby but a small mass of tissue.Homosexuality can be justified by saying a person has a genetic defect and has no control over his behavior therefore its acceptable.I’ll bet society will have a hard time justifying murder when the scietists find the genetic defect which causes a person to be born a murderer.I’ll believe I read somewhere that scientists have located a gene or genes which cause people to become murderers.Do you think they will put all the murderers in separate jails treat them as normal people with an inherited deformity and then tried to correct the gene?Or not allow them to have children because they might pass on the gene?Outlaw the death penalty once and for all because its the gene and not there fault?Scientists won’t believe that they is something in man that’s not material.His conscience must also be found to be in his genes and eventually we will discover it.

 

[JMartyr73340]

Hey Everybody:

beafedor:
Look, I don’t want you or anyone else here to think I don’t have compassion for women who have had abortions or that I can’t empathize with their situation. My intention was to present a theoretical argument to wake ordinary people from their moral indifference on this issue. It was not directed at repentant women like you who deeply regret their decision.

Your particular situation was clearly one of those extreme cases that I talked about. I think the Church would agree that in your case the circumstances lowered your moral culpability for the act. Two years ago there was abortion protest in Ottawa, Canada. At the protest there were women who, like you, deeply regretted their choice to have an abortion and were trying to convince women not to have one. But there were other pro-choice women at the rally who said that they felt no regret about having an abortion and were happy about their decision. I saw one of them on the news when I came home after the protest. Not all women regret their decision like you do.

Regarding punishment and judgment, I believe we always need to take a person’s situation and circumstances into account when pronouncing sentence, regardless of what sin we are talking about. We also need to take into account how remorseful/repentant the person is. Court judges in America are pretty good at doing this.

Whiteacre_Girl:
You’re right, I misread what you wrote. I had a long day at work yesterday and I was kind of tired when I replied.

**Warrior1979: **
Disturbing people may or may not be correct depending on the issue and the extent to which one goes. I agree, in a few cases, these analogies may drive abortion supporters deeper into the “pro-choice camp”, but those people would probably never have changed their minds anyway. One the other hand, if the analogy is made well, it may “wake people up” from their moral indifference on this issue.I agree with John21652. I feel our society has become indifferent about this issue. Part of our job as Christians is to “shine a light” on the sins of our society, even if it leads to condemnation and persecution. As one great nun put it, “if you are not a thorn in somebody’s side, you are not a true Christian.” To be clear, I am against talking about specific woman who have had abortions since only God knows the extent of their suffering and repentance.

You should also remember that while disturbing arguments may be counter-productive in some cases, completely non-disturbing arguments often fail to produce any change at all.

ManualMan:

"Child molestation will never be an effective analogy because untrue as it is, our culture today thinks child molesters are a catholic problem. "

Good point. It probably won’t work and it will look hypocritical in some way. It’s too bad that in our modern times rhetoric always wins over logic and facts. However, when some radical church-hater starts spouting off about how the Pope should be arrested because of the Church scandals, you can politely remind them that our government, for decades now, has supported the mass slaughter of children in the womb.

** JReducation**:

We would be unable to use Catholic moral theology or canon law to sustain the analogy between abortion and pedophilia. In moral theology there is a hierarchy of evil. Both of these are grave evils. However, abortion is more evil than pedophilia. That’s why we excommunicate for abortion and not for pedophilia.

Thanks Brother. It’s good to know these things. I suppose it’s not that great an analogy. Although, most people think the opposite. Most people think pedophilia is worse than abortion, which is why they find the analogy disturbing.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Whiteacre_Girl:
You’re right, I misread what you wrote. I had a long day at work yesterday and I was kind of tired when I replied.

Hey, no worries!! I myself am running on 2.5 hours of sleep!

 

[TEPO]

Holocaust is the only accurate analogy for abortion. The legal elimination of the undesirable’s in a society.

Both equal in being heinous crimes against God’s Natural Law.

 

[John21652]

In my opinion, this is a terribly bad analogy. Do you know how many abortions are forced on teenage girls by their parents or adult boyfriends, and pushed by health care professional on parents of a disabled child? People talk about “unwanted pregnancy” but they never tell the truth about “unwanted abortions”…

I HAVE ABORTED MY SON TO PROTECT HIM FROM HIS ABUSIVE FATHER. No mother in her right mind would do that. …

We need your compassion to help us all heal as a community, especially as the Church. After my 2 abortions, I was totally broken inside and it took me years to accept to face my sins and to seek God’s face. If you haven’t been involved in an abortion, you can’t imagine the guilt and the shame that women like me experience every day of their lives.
When I speak publicly about abortion, I always say that ‘abortion is a violent act that takes a life and harms a mother’…
Life didn’t make any sense. What I just shared is pretty typical of post abortive women. Peace be with you.

Thank you to beafedor for telling us what abortion truly is and what it does. There is a lot of evidence around about the effects of abortion on women, but the supporters of this moral expediency sweep it under the carpet, just as the murderous henchmen of Hitler and Stalin managed to do.

 

[John21652]

Holocaust is the only accurate analogy for abortion. The legal elimination of the undesirable’s in a society.

Both equal in being heinous crimes against God’s Natural Law.

In the book I quoted above, Bloodlands, by Harvard history professor Timothy Snyder, the salient point of the entire book is how ordinary people cannot rationalise away an extraordinary breach of basic human morality. The book centres on those parts of Poland and the Ukraine which saw a see sawing in the occupation both by the nazis and the Communists under Stalin. Both sides shot jews and other classes of people like it was nobody’s business. The numbers quoted by Snyder are breathtaking in their enormity. However, it was striking how what was a crime under one regime became morally acceptable under another, according to the basic inclinations of those involved. It was moral relativity writ large.

When it suited the Communists the Poles were allies and both shot Jews. When it suited the Communists otherwise, the Poles were lined up and shot and a lot of jews were in the higher ranks of Stalins NKVD (Secret Police) and they shot Poles. Along came the Nazis and both they and the Poles shot Jews and when it suited the Nazis, they shot the Poles too. In other words, morality was made subservient to expediency. In all cases, either Communist or Nazi propoganda tapped into the prevailing sentiments of the population and turned the victims into non-persons. Snyder’s account is an horrific account of how morality, when made relative, can mean anything it’s required to mean. Making a class of people to be non-persons requires some pretty deft mental gymnastics, but once done it can be hidden behind all sorts of euphamistic wordplay and the real meaning of what is being done is not mentioned, talked about, or recognised.

TEPO is correct when he states that it is the legal elimination of undesirables. The contrast TEPO makes is between what is Legal and what is right, objectively. because something is sanctioned by the law of the land does not make it morally right, but only expedient.

I really, really am disturbed by these analogies. Do people really sit around and learn about these subjects in great detail, then try to make analogies between them? Take my word for it…the general public finds these types of comparisons disturbing (as do I), and verbalizing these things to the general public does a grave disservice to the pro-life cause.

Warrior tells us these analogies disturb people. So they should. It is reality that people in Snyder’s book failed to face and it the reality of what abortion is and does that people in contemporary society fail to acknowledge. The truth is truly confronting.

Yes, people ARE disturbed. This occurs because they’ve been conditioned to think of abortion as “an issue” rather than a horrific genocide. They don’t like to be disturbed from keeping abortion in its nice, sanitized “issue” box in their minds. Tiny ripped human body parts are NOT what comes to mind for most people today when you say “abortion.” That’s why we haven’t stopped it yet.

That said, Nazis are a far overplayed card to be useful in discussion.

Slavery is a superb analogy in many ways because even slavery’s supporters used EXACTLY the same argument as abortionists do (State’s rights / pro-choice on slavery versus Women’s rights / pro-choice on abortion). Slavery even produced a divided approach to opposing it. You had John Brown who tried to use violence to end slavery. Some today propose Brown as a hero, but in his own day even most abolitionists considered him a dangerous loon harmful to the cause. He was the clinic-bomber of his day. Pro-lifers shouldn’t consider Brown or bombers as heros as violence does detriment to the cause.

Abortion will never be outlawed until and unless people stop being distracted by smokescreens and face what abortion IS.

Child molestation will never be an effective analogy because untrue as it is, our culture today thinks child molestors are a catholic problem.

Manualman tells us the Nazi card has been overplayed. I say God help us all if the lessons of what humanity is capable of, as demonstrated by the Nazi regime, are forgotten. We need to add in what Stalin was capable of making people do. If we are not on guard against moral relativity, of which abortion is just one more example, then we are doomed to repeat the failures of history.

In my opinion, this is a terribly bad analogy. Do you know how many abortions are forced on teenage girls by their parents or adult boyfriends, and pushed by health care professional on parents of a disabled child? People talk about “unwanted pregnancy” but they never tell the truth about “unwanted abortions”…

I HAVE ABORTED MY SON TO PROTECT HIM FROM HIS ABUSIVE FATHER. No mother in her right mind would do that. …

We need your compassion to help us all heal as a community, especially as the Church. After my 2 abortions, I was totally broken inside and it took me years to accept to face my sins and to seek God’s face. If you haven’t been involved in an abortion, you can’t imagine the guilt and the shame that women like me experience every day of their lives.
When I speak publicly about abortion, I always say that ‘abortion is a violent act that takes a life and harms a mother’…
Life didn’t make any sense. What I just shared is pretty typical of post abortive women. Peace be with you.

Thank you to beafedor for telling us what abortion truly is and what it does. There is a lot of evidence around about the effects of abortion on women, but the supporters of this moral expediency sweep it under the carpet, just as the murderous henchmen of Hitler and Stalin managed to do.

 

[nordskoven]

When I pray outside an abortion clinic, I fill my heart with love for those women and men. I can’t imagine comparing abortion to the Shoah will make their hearts more tender. I was an abortion supporter and am grateful that God brought me to love life and forgave my foolishness. But I don’t think calling me a NAZI would have converted me any sooner, do you? What is, after all, the point of our witness? To save two lives. That takes action, not just words of hate. Let’s all make a special point to stock those shelves in the local pro-life clinic or woman’s shelter. Lots of girls are thrown out when finding themselves pregnant. Give them a hand. It’s better to turn our attentions to helping those in need than in condemning when love is called for.

 

[St_Francis]

Analogies are interesting… I think that the Holocaust analogy doesn’t work so well anymore for two reasons: 1. I think that people do not really fully understand that the Nazis regarded the Jews as non-human just as abortion suppprters now regard the unborn as non-human. Nowadays people see the Jews looking so fully human and cannot fathom that they were really considered non-human.

That is why I prefer the analogy of chattel slavery in the US. Most people here have a fuller understanding of slavery, they see that it was unjust power of one individual over another (unlike the Holocaust which seems sort of corpoate and more isolated to the military). And they see that there were people defending slavery using some of the same methods now used to defend abortion.

However, I believe that Whitacre Girl os right about our needing to freshen up our arguments. The pro-choicers spend a lot of time and money responding to what we say. We say abortion is wrong, they say the unborn are just blobs of cells. We say they are not like appendixes; they say they are not alive…

What’s beginning to come out now is what Pope Paul said in Humanae Vitae, the connection between sex, abc, and abortion.

I think that what helped us the most recently is pictures of babies in the womb. I think if we focus on the positive, people will have a position to move towards, rather than a position to move from… rather than simply averting their eyes from what they believe to be a necessary evil, they will look to be in a position of positive good, but I think the message of the connection between sex and babies, abstinence and no unwanted babies, is made, there will be a hurdle. Remember that people think sexual activity is a meaningless activity to be enjoyed, not the means of procreation.

 

[Muze]

IMHO, the key to the abortion debate is estabilshing the consent of the mother to become a mother by engaging in sexual activity. Even the act of attempting to prevent pregnancy is an acknowledgement that the sexual act is a consent to incubating a child.

Not to say that the intent is ALWAYS procreative, but the possibility for any fertile couple is always there, and inherent in that known possibility is the consent of both to raise a child until such time as another responsible party can take that responsibility.

Once you’ve established that, the the pro-“choice” side loses its argument to the woman having a “right” to her body, becaus she consented to the child coming to be there.

It also eliminates analogies where one person becomes dependent upon another without their consent.

Once you establish that sex=consent to pregnancy, the pro-“choice” argument falls apart.

 

[beafedor]

IMHO, the key to the abortion debate is estabilshing the consent of the mother to become a mother by engaging in sexual activity. Even the act of attempting to prevent pregnancy is an acknowledgement that the sexual act is a consent to incubating a child.

Not to say that the intent is ALWAYS procreative, but the possibility for any fertile couple is always there, and inherent in that known possibility is the consent of both to raise a child until such time as another responsible party can take that responsibility.

Once you’ve established that, the the pro-“choice” side loses its argument to the woman having a “right” to her body, becaus she consented to the child coming to be there.

It also eliminates analogies where one person becomes dependent upon another without their consent.

Once you establish that sex=consent to pregnancy, the pro-“choice” argument falls apart.

Ok but what about sexual assault?

 

[wynnejj]

The abortion issue is a uniquely Catholic issue. The primacy of man over the animals is not his intellect and reason, but the very existence of his soul. The existence of the soul begins at conception.

Just as the Real Presence of Jesus - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity - begins at the Consecration of the Host, so does the real presence of Man begin at Conception - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity (that is, the spirit of God in Man).

Once the Catholic Church takes the abortion issue as the central over-riding issue of the day, all other Christian religions will be closer to our understanding of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.