Abortion Analogies

[wynnejj]

I’m glad the priests in America have enough fortitude and courage to address the issue directly.

Unfortunately the priests in America have a serious credibility issue with non-Catholic Americans. The bishops in America have a serious credibility issue with some Catholic Americans. It is precisely due to the topic of this thread.

The Pro-Life cause in America is surfing the wave of Tea Party sentiments focused on the crucial need for fiscal responsibility and no more feeding the alligator with additional tax revenues, coupled with the inadequacies of the current national healthcare plan that needs serious revision or to be scrapped entirely. It has given some Catholics and Christians in general the courage to speak out openly where they were unwilling heretofore.

The prime focus of Catholic Pro-Life advocates should be to restore integrity to the Catholic Church at the national, diocesan, and parish levels in drilling home the idea that we must restore our Catholic integrity which requires that Catholic voters must vote against abortion policies first and foremost as the first principle of social justice.

The clerical scandals in America are not related first and foremost to the hiding of clerical abuse related to born children which is only the tip of the iceberg, but the hiding of clerical abuse related to unborn children by neglect of a strong focused Pro-Life message taught from the Sunday pulpit. All our far-fetched analogies should be directed at restoring Catholic voting integrity and the primacy of the Pro-Life cause as the first principle of social justice. The strong Pro-Life message must be heralded in spite of our past abuses.

 

[mangy_dog]

I saw a thread today which was asking whether it was valid to compare abortion to the Holocaust. I’m not a big fan of this comparison. Although, I do think there are aspects of it that are valid, especially if you consider an unborn child a human being.

I find Catholics often have trouble debating this issue in an effective way. Some Catholics take a very cerebral approach to the issue. They state the Church’s position well, but often fail to convey the magnitude and/or horror of what is going on. Other Catholics go to the other extreme and compare it to the Holocaust, as I mentioned.

I was thinking that a better comparison would be abortion and paedophilia. I think there are some very good things about this analogy:

1. In both cases, the heinous act is being done to a child.
2. In both cases the act is being done for selfish reasons. In the case of abortion, the motivation is (often) convenience. A woman has premarital sex, and accidentally gets pregnant. The woman does not want to go through the pain of having a child and raising it, so she decides to kill it instead. In the case of paedophilia, the person (usually a man) is doing it to gratify some perverse sexual desire. Both motivations are equally selfish and disturbing.
3. The comparison helps to convey the horror of what is being done in abortion.Our society has no trouble understanding the horror of a man abusing a child for his own pleasure, but it seems to have a lot of trouble understanding the horror of a woman killing a child for her own convenience. Logically, this does not make any sense. I suppose it is a testament to the effectiveness of feminist propaganda that our society can see the evil in the one act but not in the other.
4. Women often justify abortion by citing external and/or personal factors such as poverty and poor parenting. But the same circumstantial justification can be given for paedophilia. In fact, the circumstantial justifications for paedophilia are more compelling, since it has been psychologically proven that men who were abused often become abusers themselves. Yet, we have no problem condemning them and putting them in prison (as in the case of the Church scandals). If our society was logical, it would do the same to women who have abortions

What do you guys think? Offensive? Unfair? Not logical? Just looking for your opinion. Personally, I think political correctness is destroying our society, and Catholics need to get a little tougher if they’re going to make any real difference, especially on this issue.

Here’s another mangy dog perspective:

The angel Gabriel announces to Mary that she will concieve a child and His name will Jesus…you know the story.
Mary rejoices over the wonder of this miraculous thing that has happened to her and decides to go accompany Elizbeth whom the angel Gabriel told her was 6 months pregnant.

Mary take off to the mountainous region of Judea. In those times you travelled by caravan so, her trip up there may have taken a day or two…maybe three days.

She arrrives at Elizabeth’s, enters and greets her. At that moment both John the Baptist (6 months) is filled with the Holy Spirit and Elizabeth is also overwhelmed by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Was it because of Mary’s presence? or because of the child she was already carrying? Surely Mary is the God-bearer but, it is the presence of Jesus Christ, already 2 or 3 days old, that brings about the Joy of the Holy Spirit. Mary wasn’t even showing yet.

Moral of the story…life begins at conception - which is the simple teaching of the church.

That’s my analogy and more than analogy…it is the proof that life begins at conception.

 

[Holly3278]

Personally, I see nothing wrong with comparing abortion to the holocaust. The holocaust was genocide in which millions were killed. Abortion is infanticide in which probably billions have been killed.

 

[Sancta_Caecilia]

I think the only circumstance that is contentious is if the mother was raped. If someone makes a mistake, drunk night, casual sex and doesnt feel they can support a baby, are too young or have enough money or are psychologically scarred then that is sad and terrible, but it is not fair to then abort the child becasue of it.

The only situation that i can accept is If someone was bullied into it and has sought forgiveness then so be it- it was against there will OR if a child under the age of 14 or a mentally impaired person who had a similar brain development around that age (at that age i think we are smart enough to know consequences of actions and deal with them for the sake of the unborn life) not whose life will be affected but who for medical reasons may be at great risk of their own lives if they were to deliver the baby (granted some oelder woman are in the same risk but they entered into what they did with knowledge of consequences) lastly, the other situation i find it may be acceptable is if it was Rape. Thoughts?

 

[mangy_dog]

I think the only circumstance that is contentious is if the mother was raped. If someone makes a mistake, drunk night, casual sex and doesnt feel they can support a baby, are too young or have enough money or are psychologically scarred then that is sad and terrible, but it is not fair to then abort the child becasue of it.

The only situation that i can accept is If someone was bullied into it and has sought forgiveness then so be it- it was against there will OR if a child under the age of 14 or a mentally impaired person who had a similar brain development around that age (at that age i think we are smart enough to know consequences of actions and deal with them for the sake of the unborn life) not whose life will be affected but who for medical reasons may be at great risk of their own lives if they were to deliver the baby (granted some oelder woman are in the same risk but they entered into what they did with knowledge of consequences) lastly, the other situation i find it may be acceptable is if it was Rape. Thoughts?

Your conclusion is correct, it’s like condemning two people for the crime: the rapist and the baby. As if the baby was an accomplice.

Even in these so called “contentious circumstances”, we cannot include the baby as an accessory to the fact or crime. The baby is innocent.

Trial (or lack thereof) and death sentence for this innocent human person is tantamount to mob lynching during our early american history of the blacks…just for being black.

 

[Sancta_Caecilia]

Your conclusion is correct, it’s like condemning two people for the crime: the rapist and the baby. As if the baby was an accomplice.

Even in these so called “contentious circumstances”, we cannot include the baby as an accessory to the fact or crime. The baby is innocent.

Trial (or lack thereof) and death sentence for this innocent human person is tantamount to mob lynching during our early american history of the blacks…just for being black.

i think you mis-read part of my answer or i did not articulate clearly. I am completely against abortion except am unsure about two situations. The two situations where i feel there may be exception is a particularly young person who wasnt educated/informed/able to judge what they were doing (a 9 , 10 year old) and finds their lives in mortal danger …and rape- while my earlier beliefs still apply, i can see how this is one situation is contentous- where there is no fault whatsoever of the mothers (or the babies).

 

[mangy_dog]

i think you mis-read part of my answer or i did not articulate clearly. I am completely against abortion except am unsure about two situations. The two situations where i feel there may be exception is a particularly young person who wasnt educated/informed/able to judge what they were doing (a 9 , 10 year old) and finds their lives in mortal danger …and rape- while my earlier beliefs still apply, i can see how this is one situation is contentous- where there is no fault whatsoever of the mothers (or the babies).

As a general rule - 1) Life begins at conception. B) It is a human person from the time of conception. III) This human person cannot become collateral damage or convenience casualty. 4th) to proactively or reactively kill the unborn baby is to put the penalty of the crime or “unplanned mistake” on the unborn.

When is it the unborn baby’s fault??? When?

Is there a situation (this is rhetorical) where we can say, " oh this is the baby’s fault, lets abort or kill [it]".

 

[JReducation]

I think the only circumstance that is contentious is if the mother was raped. If someone makes a mistake, drunk night, casual sex and doesnt feel they can support a baby, are too young or have enough money or are psychologically scarred then that is sad and terrible, but it is not fair to then abort the child becasue of it.

The only situation that i can accept is If someone was bullied into it and has sought forgiveness then so be it- it was against there will OR if a child under the age of 14 or a mentally impaired person who had a similar brain development around that age (at that age i think we are smart enough to know consequences of actions and deal with them for the sake of the unborn life) not whose life will be affected but who for medical reasons may be at great risk of their own lives if they were to deliver the baby (granted some oelder woman are in the same risk but they entered into what they did with knowledge of consequences) lastly, the other situation i find it may be acceptable is if it was Rape. Thoughts?

This is contrary to Catholic dogma. The case is sad and we don’t know why God has allowed it to happen. But we must accept it as it is. Therefore, all efforts to protect both lives must be made and at no time is morallly permissible to choose one life over the other, not even to save a life.

Bl. John Paul was absolute on this point. I am surprised that Catholics are still discussing it when it has been decreed to be as it is, as an infallible statement, invoking the authority of Peter and the Apostles.

Once the pope invokes the authority of Peter, what he has said can never be revoked. It can be explained, clarified or built upon by a future pope, but not revoked. Even popes cannot revoke what has been stated using the Petrine Authority, it is as Pilate said, “What I have written, I have written.” A future pope can point to an exception, if there is one. In this case, Bl. John Paul said there was none.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sancta_Caecilia]

As a general rule - 1) Life begins at conception. B) It is a human person from the time of conception. III) This human person cannot become collateral damage or convenience casualty. 4th) to proactively or reactively kill the unborn baby is to put the penalty of the crime or “unplanned mistake” on the unborn.

When is it the unborn baby’s fault??? When?

Is there a situation (this is rhetorical) where we can say, " oh this is the baby’s fault, lets abort or kill [it]".

never the babys fault ever. we can never say that. (well i cant anyway) but some do. i posted to promote pro-life. i do not believe in abortion. I dont understand why people dont understand that it isnt the innocent babies fault, EXCEPT i can sympathise with why people might find it hard to avoid abortion if they have been raped or they have a very young daughter- both of these cases are where not only is the baby not at fault (it never is ) but the mother isnt either. I know of people who have been in both these positions and i sympathize and was just wondering how catholics help other catholics who may come into one of these two situations.

 

[Sancta_Caecilia]

This is contrary to Catholic dogma. The case is sad and we don’t know why God has allowed it to happen. But we must accept it as it is. Therefore, all efforts to protect both lives must be made and at no time is morallly permissible to choose one life over the other, not even to save a life.

Bl. John Paul was absolute on this point. I am surprised that Catholics are still discussing it when it has been decreed to be as it is, as an infallible statement, invoking the authority of Peter and the Apostles.

Once the pope invokes the authority of Peter, what he has said can never be revoked. It can be explained, clarified or built upon by a future pope, but not revoked. Even popes cannot revoke what has been stated using the Petrine Authority, it is as Pilate said, “What I have written, I have written.” A future pope can point to an exception, if there is one. In this case, Bl. John Paul said there was none.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thankyou for your post. Just wanted to clarify that i personally do not find abortion acceptable in any circumstance. I was not suggesting it be revoked or make an exception to catholic law, what i meant was can people justify it to themselves. I know people who have.(catholics) I think its wrong but i can understand why they would do it. I am not discussing the legitamacy of the law but catholic womens perceptions.I can make a personal exception when someone acts in this way. While i do not condone it, i can empathize and understand in a ’ we can save the mother or save the baby’ situation. And sadly, if the child is the product of a rape, the family is even more likely to say ‘save the mother’. I am not saying that to save one over the other is better or worse- these are two equal lives- but that if you were faced with this kind of choice then the origins of the pregnancy would play in a decision.

Thankyou for your wisdom Brother

 

[JReducation]

Thankyou for your post. Just wanted to clarify that i personally do not find abortion acceptable in any circumstance. I was not suggesting it be revoked or make an exception to catholic law, what i meant was can people justify it to themselves. I know people who have.(catholics) I think its wrong but i can understand why they would do it. I am not discussing the legitamacy of the law but catholic womens perceptions.I can make a personal exception when someone acts in this way. While i do not condone it, i can empathize and understand in a ’ we can save the mother or save the baby’ situation. And sadly, if the child is the product of a rape, the family is even more likely to say ‘save the mother’. I am not saying that to save one over the other is better or worse- these are two equal lives- but that if you were faced with this kind of choice then the origins of the pregnancy would play in a decision.

Thankyou for your wisdom Brother

It is always important to remain compassionate in these situations. There are times when people act driven by emotion rather than reason. In those cases, their judgment is impaired. The Church is always ready to embrace them and extend both her light and her forgiveness.

That being said, it is equally important that we inform people that they cannot ride on the coat tails of mercy. God is infinitely merciful, but his mercy is not to be abused. Often, we think that we can push the envelop one more time or just in this situation, etc. That is not fair to God.

Thank you for your clarification. I truly appreicate it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[MillTownCath]

Consent was given when the act of sex was engaged in.
One should accept the consequences of ones actions.

However, I take exception with the idea that they “don’t seem to see the fetus as a valuable human life”
Very often they simply have not thought it through.

Those that have the knowledge and still insist that the human is not as valuable as other human life are guilty of the same thinking as found throughout history wherever atrocity occurs.
In Germany, the Nazi party convinced everyone that Jewish people were not human.
In the US, slaveholders convinced others that slaves were not really human.

Throughout history, every genocide (or attempted one) is preceded by a group convincing people that a given group of people are not really human.

Perhaps that is the key. Prove the humanity that is in the womb and keep pounding the point.

Good point. I often say that, you can’t kill a fetus just because it isn’t fully developed yet. Humans are not fully developed until at least 18, does that mean we should be able to kill 10 year old’s? No.

But then they often say that, “well is sperm human then?”

I don’t know what to say at this point.

 

[vz71]

But then they often say that, “well is sperm human then?”

I don’t know what to say at this point.

Easy. The answer is no.
A sperm is part of the Father. It is a product of the father, and has the same genetic information as the father.

It is not until sperm and egg combine that conception occurs and a unique DNA sequence appears…a unique and seperate human life appears.

The effort to push the argument ‘ad absurdum’ is really a great opportunity to teach.