Abortion and politics

[tjm190]

No dmelosi, I am concerned about many things. But I am also concerned with trying to effectively balance my faith and beliefs on abortion with living in a democracy of plural faiths and beliefs in which I have no right to force my beliefs onto others.

Person A believes that African Americans are entitled to all the rights that white people are. He forces that belief on those who disagree.
Person B believes that women are entitled to all the rights that men are. He forces that belief on all who disagree.
Person C believes that Muslims are entitled to all the rights other religious groups are. He forces that belief on all who disagree.
Person D believes that the homeless are entitled to all the rights the rest of the general population is. He forces that belief on all who disagree.
Person E believes that the unborn are entitled to all the rights that the born are. Why can’t he force that belief on those who disagree, while everyone else can?

 

[CathFaith1]

Person A believes that African Americans are entitled to all the rights that white people are. He forces that belief on those who disagree.
Person B believes that women are entitled to all the rights that men are. He forces that belief on all who disagree.
Person C believes that Muslims are entitled to all the rights other religious groups are. He forces that belief on all who disagree.
Person D believes that the homeless are entitled to all the rights the rest of the general population is. He forces that belief on all who disagree.
Person E believes that the unborn are entitled to all the rights that the born are. Why can’t he force that belief on those who disagree, while everyone else can?

Unfortunately because some are ignorant to the fact it’s not an issue of the RIGHT TO LIFE. They confuse RIGHT TO LIFE with being a theocracy?

Also properly catechized Catholics understand, “Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.” (CCC 2271 ).

 

[CMatt25]

You guys seem to totally miss the difference of faith and belief vs what is knowledge. Trying to compare different beliefs on what for certain occurs at the moment of conception with the soul or not, with things like the existence of homelessness, is like comparing apples to oranges. The former a grayer area as it is faith based while the latter’s existence black and white. But you don’t get it because on something faith and belief related you only see black and white. But then on issues that are black and white you only seem to see gray. You appear to have your colors mixed up as to what is black and white and what isn’t. All the best and God bless. Peace.

 

[CathFaith1]

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Abortion is a crime of aggression not only against the unborn, but also against society, Pope Benedict XVI said.

“Children have the right to be born and to grow in the midst of a family founded on matrimony, where the parents are the first educators of children in the faith and where they can grow to full human and spiritual maturity,” the pope said Dec. 3.

Meeting with the presidents of Latin American bishops’ committees for the family and for life, the pope urged them to work together, sharing the programs and approaches that are most successful in their countries.

“Children are the major richness and the most precious good of a family,” he said.

“For this reason, it is necessary to help all people to be aware that the intrinsic evil of the crime of abortion, which attacks human life at its beginning, is also an aggression against society itself,” the pope said.

Abortion is crime against society, says Pope Benedict

 

[dmelosi]

You guys seem to totally miss the difference of faith and belief vs what is knowledge. Trying to compare different beliefs on what for certain occurs at the moment of conception with the soul or not, with things like the existence of homelessness, is like comparing apples to oranges. The former a grayer area as it is faith based while the latter’s existence black and white. But you don’t get it because on something faith and belief related you only see black and white. But then on issues that are black and white you only seem to see gray. You appear to have your colors mixed up as to what is black and white and what isn’t. All the best and God bless. Peace.

I am confused by this post.

Can you please be specific?

 

[CMatt25]

I am confused by this post.

Can you please be specific?

Not really anymore than I have been. God bless you all and peace to each of you always.

 

[CathFaith1]

Hopefully your nation remains committed to right to life of the unborn child, as we hope to make ours. One day.

 

[PeteZ28]

Who came up with those definitions? You have to look deeper than one issue. Pro life certainly does not entail life only when found in the womb. And it is a misnomer to label everyone pro choice as pro abortion.

Pro choice means just what it says. Pro choice. And “pro life” as you define it should actually be called anti choice.

Believe it or not and I know you don’t believe it. But there are actually folks who while believing abortion should be safe and legal in certain cases for various reasons, would themselves never have an abortion and who believe in working to make them rare. That of course though partly entails making certain there are programs intact for life after birth. But one must get away from the Catholic Church’s rigid idea of “pro life” and look beyond the womb for that to occur. God bless you and peace.

That whole line about “pro-choice not being for abortion” and “I support a womans right to choose but I would never get one” is the biggest line of rubbish ever to come out of the mouth of anyone.

Remember, Jesus said, “He who is not with Me, is against Me.”

Let me make that clear. If you are not opposing abortion, you are supporting it!

As a Catholic we believe that abortion is murder, plain and simple. It is our DUTY to oppose any and all murderous acts. Would you, or any “pro choice” people feel the same way if the law was different, say, if one could “choose” to kill their spouse, or “choose” to kill their post birth children, or “choose” to kill their neighbor? Of course not, yours, mine, and anyone who is not a complete sociopath would have to agree that the above are not a valid direction on anyones moral compass. But the unborn are just as much human and that is completely legal, and to many, perfectly acceptable behavior.

Yet somehow even many Catholics separate themselves from the truth by saying “it’s not my place to make that moral decision for someone else”, or “it’s not right for me to impress my morals on someone else”.

Guess what? You’re half correct. It’s not our right to do so. It is our DUTY to do so. If we are not the shepherds of these children, then WHO is?

 

[CMatt25]

That whole line about “pro-choice not being for abortion” and “I support a womans right to choose but I would never get one” is the biggest line of rubbish ever to come out of the mouth of anyone.

Would you, or any “pro choice” people feel the same way if the law was different, say, if one could “choose” to kill their spouse, or “choose” to kill their post birth children, or “choose” to kill their neighbor? Of course not, yours, mine, and anyone who is not a complete sociopath would have to agree that the above are not a valid direction on anyones moral compass. But the unborn are just as much human and that is completely legal, and to many, perfectly acceptable behavior.

Of course killing your spouse, post birth children or neighbor is not on the moral compass. Ensoulment has obviously occured. Whether that occurs at conception however is subject to one’s belief. In a democracy of plural beliefs not run by the Catholic Church or any church, the govt, courts or what have you, must come up with a law of the land. Not all of us are going to be pleased. Peace.

 

[elts1956]

First let me state that I am against abortion of any kind… but being a recent Catholic convert (Well, 6-7 years, anyway) One thing puzzles me about politics and abortion.

Abortion is legal: This does not change whether there is a Republican or Democrat in office… so what is the difference? What did a vote for Bush (Against abortion) do? It didn’t change anything… you could still have a legal abortion in this country during his administration.
Yes, he kept certain stem cell research at bay, but that’s a pretty tiny part of the picture.

You are right, neither Bush nor Kerry (during the 2004 POTUS election?) were saints when it came to the abortion issue. How ever, Bush was less pro abortion than Kerry. We were told we must support the candidate who is most likely to keep the evil of abortion from spreading. This was Bush. In the likelihood both candidates were equally pro abortion, we could look at other issues and using prudence vote for the candidate who most likely supported the issues we favored.

 

[PeteZ28]

Of course killing your spouse, post birth children or neighbor is not on the moral compass. Ensoulment has obviously occured. Whether that occurs at conception however is subject to one’s belief. In a democracy of plural beliefs not run by the Catholic Church or any church, the govt, courts or what have you, must come up with a law of the land. Not all of us are going to be pleased. Peace.

You’re missing the point. As a Catholic, what is YOUR belief? I can tell you what it should be.

Now, knowing what you KNOW to be the TRUTH, not your “Catholic belief”, how can you stand by and allow abortion any more than you could turn a blind eye to a law that allowed you to kill anyone post birth? The key word here is KNOW, this isn’t your belief, this is KNOWLEDGE.

As Catholics we have a moral responsibility to do everything in our power to choose leaders that align themselves with our moral code. To do anything else only encourages the propagation of evil.

Think strongly about the following; “…in what I have done, and what I have failed to do…”.

What I have failed to do… an oft overlooked side of our sinful nature.

If you saw a man bleeding to death in the street, and did not do something to help him, even simply call 911, you have failed, and mortally sinned. As a Catholic, and unborn fetus deserves the same protection, the same help, the same support, as the bleeding, dying man. We do that by voting in people who will protect their rights, not the so called “rights” of the secular to commit murder.

Americans enjoy a unique privilege in this world, one almost unmatched anywhere else. We have the sole authority to elect leaders that suit our moral beliefs. In many ways, that is an absolute blessing. There are more than enough Catholics in this country to seriously influence elections, yet year after year we fail.

Don’t just take my word for it: priestsforlife.org/columns/columns2008/08-02-25-what-i-have-failed-to-do.htm

…and what I have failed to do. Do not take those words lightly.

 

[Geremia]

You guys seem to totally miss the difference of faith and belief vs what is knowledge.

[T]he argument from authority based on human reason is the weakest, yet the argument from authority based on divine revelation is the strongest.

—Summa Theologica Iª q. 1 a. 8 ad 2​

What part of “Thou shalt not kill” is “gray?”

Trying to compare different beliefs on what for certain occurs at the moment of conception with the soul or not, with things like the existence of homelessness, is like comparing apples to oranges. The former a grayer area as it is faith based while the latter’s existence black and white.

Maybe you should watch A Silent Scream; one does not need to have faith to believe that what is happening in an abortion is an abortionist attacking and dismembering a live human being. You can see it with your very eyes.

In the case of homelessness, sure it exists, but some people also choose it. Being homeless is not an intrinsically evil act as is abortion. So you are right in that homelessness and abortion are like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[elts1956]

Pro life means against abortion.
Pro choice means for abortion.

No matter how those that are so married to their political party they try to change what it means to ease their guilt on what they are really doing, promoting abortion.

dmelosi and others trying to respond to this fellow, forget it. He is a troll having placed the same arguments and answers on several other threads regarding abortion, law, bible, etc. He has created his own Church with his own belief system. Entirely delusional.

 

[CMatt25]

You’re missing the point. As a Catholic, what is YOUR belief? I can tell you what it should be.

Now, knowing what you KNOW to be the TRUTH, not your “Catholic belief”, how can you stand by and allow abortion any more than you could turn a blind eye to a law that allowed you to kill anyone post birth? The key word here is KNOW, this isn’t your belief, this is KNOWLEDGE.

No it’s not. That’s why we call it faith. But many of you are so convinced you know more than someone else, the lines become blurred for you and you mix up faith with knowledge. We know the grass is green. At least I hope most of you wouldn’t say it’s red if Benedict so pronounced it red tomorrow. Or if he pronounced your neighbor not human, you wouldn’t believe him. Because you know your neighbor is human. But we believe the soul enters the body and becomes human life when we believe it to do so. And thanks but you don’t need to tell me what anything should be. Peace.

 

[PeteZ28]

No it’s not. That’s why we call it faith. But many of you are so convinced you know more than someone else, the lines become blurred for you and you mix up faith with knowledge. We know the grass is green. At least I hope most of you wouldn’t say it’s red if Benedict so pronounced it red tomorrow. Or if he pronounced your neighbor not human, you wouldn’t believe him. Because you know your neighbor is human. But we believe the soul enters the body and becomes human life when we believe it to do so. And thanks but you don’t need to tell me what anything should be. Peace.

Don’t take it from me, talk to your priest. As Catholics we KNOW Jesus is God, we KNOW Mary was a virgin, we KNOW he died for our sins, descended into hell, rose on the third day and ascended into heaven, and we KNOW that life begins at conception.

If you don’t accept that as something you KNOW, than you only THINK the Catholic belief is true. That isn’t faith, that is lack of faith.

 

[CMatt25]

Don’t take it from me, talk to your priest. As Catholics we KNOW Jesus is God, we KNOW Mary was a virgin, we KNOW he died for our sins, descended into hell, rose on the third day and ascended into heaven, and we KNOW that life begins at conception.

If you don’t accept that as something you KNOW, than you only THINK the Catholic belief is true. That isn’t faith, that is lack of faith.

Why would I do that? He taught in a homily his answer to the poor is to get a job. In what has been the worst recession since the Great Depression. So why would I talk to him about knowledge? He seemingly by that statement doesn’t even know Christ taught to serve the poor. God bless you on your faith journey and peace to you always.

 

[PeteZ28]

Why would I do that? He taught in a homily his answer to the poor is to get a job. In what has been the worst recession since the Great Depression. So why would I talk to him about knowledge? He seemingly by that statement doesn’t even know Christ taught to serve the poor. God bless you on your faith journey and peace to you always.

Are you actually Catholic?

 

[CMatt25]

Are you actually Catholic?

According to some on CAF or according to the Church? I find there sometimes can be a difference.

 

[WatchingMedia]

Yeah because they were missing the point that the Hyde amendment still rules the land.

The sooner the CC begins to understand we do not live in a theocracy the better for the unborn. I pray with all my heart for a time when we can finally begin to** move to a more common middle ground** and begin to work further to help make abortion, while safe and legal in a free society of many faiths and beliefs on this issue, even rarer. This will take not demanding an all or nothing approach of returning to the back alleys pre - Roe. But instead working to make sure there are the needed social programs in place to provide care for the children when born. Individuals and the Church, while great to try, can not do it alone. If the Catholics today were half as ardent in supporting government social programs as they are in banning all abortion, what a better start God’s little children would have.
God bless you and peace.

Life and death issues when presented to any hospital emergency room in the US are automatically taken care of in the US. Let’s not play games.

The Government could have made simple changes to insurance laws regarding preexisting conditions, rather than a socialist 1000 page bill that forces taxpayers to pay for abortions on demand, and will support euthanasia for the infirm and elderly due to cost containment. Killing some innocents so others can have insurance is corrupt.
No one said that our previous system was perfect and did not need minor changes that everyone could support, - but our new system will be far worse and morally corrupt, and far more expensive to implement. Money that could go to help those really in need will go to administration.

Regarding the death penalty in the US, it usually takes many many years to take place from the date of conviction. It is not an overnight process. And inmates have time to ask for God’s forgiveness.
It is usually much much more serious than one eye for one eye. Depending on the crime, if put in the general jail population, convicted criminals would be dead much faster -if that is what one prefers - no more discrimination for the safety of the convicted criminal on death row.

Mixing all these issues together is just an excuse to support government socialism.

Read all definitions on “SUBSIDIARITY” in the CCC. We are supposed to help those unable to help themselves.
Not cripple people’s incentives or desire to work - with government socialist programs.

If you don’t like the Faith, you have a free choice. God gave you that free will.
“The Catholic Church is not a salad bar. You can not pick and choose what you want to believe.” - Cardinal John O’Conner.

What I read from your post is - that you support abortion (even though you have said previously you don’t). If you are really Catholic, you need to go to confession prior to recieving communion.
Read CCC - 2271 through 2273.

Supporting the killing of any innocents is a slippery slope.
Hilter started a little at a time with those unable to defend themselves.
ehd.org/movies.php?mov_id=44

 

[CMatt25]

Life and death issues when presented to any hospital emergency room in the US are automatically taken care of in the US. Let’s not play games.

The Government could have made simple changes to insurance laws regarding preexisting conditions… but our new system will be far worse and morally corrupt, and far more expensive to implement. Money that could go to help those really in need will go to administration.

Regarding the death penalty in the US, it usually takes many many years to take place from the date of conviction. It is not an overnight process. And inmates have time to ask for God’s forgiveness.
It is usually much much more serious than one eye for one eye. Depending on the crime, if put in the general jail population, convicted criminals would be dead much faster -if that is what one prefers - no more discrimination for the safety of the convicted criminal on death row.

Mixing all these issues together is just an excuse to support government socialism.

If you don’t like the Faith, you have a free choice. God gave you that free will.

What I read from your post is - that you support abortion (even though you have said previously you don’t). If you are really Catholic, you need to go to confession prior to recieving communion.
Read CCC - 2271 through 2273.

Excuse me. Games? Waiting for a near death ER visit is hardly what Christ meant when He said to care for the sick.

The govt **could have **tweaked around the edges on healthcare. But funny how the Republicans never seemed to get around to the simple changes you advocate when they held power prior to 2007. Actually the govt did not go far enough. Forcing everyone to buy private insurance without a more competitive public option actually may fall short of providing everyone affordable quality care.

Alrighty so many many yrs waiting makes it ok then to kill an obvious human being? Actually the price we might have to pay is life imprisonment away from the general population if we indeed shall not want to kill an obvious human being.

Funny but typical how you balk at expenses related to healthcare and prisons. That’s the problem. Many so-called “pro lifers” didn’t squack when the previous regime was spending tons of $$$ for 2 wars all the while giving tax breaks to the wealthiest. But let some be spent on actual people Christ taught us to care for when the Church and individuals fail at doing it all themselves, and then we hear from you. Money under our present system btw goes towards administration too. Some of it even goes to corporate decisonmakers turning away sick people from coverage or from receiving affordable quality care prior to ending up in that ER you’re so fond of. Not to mention who do you think is paying for those ER visits? One thing I can assure you of, it’s not the tooth fairy.

No mixing all these things is not an excuse for anything. I make no excuses for spreading those things Christ actually spoke of the most.

The Catholic Church also claims free will to define who is called a Catholic. And I fit the definition whether you agree with the Church’s teaching on who is Catholic or not.

You apparently read incorrectly. I however know the difference between a faith belief and 100% absolute actual certain knowledge. And how in a democracy of plural beliefs I do not have the right to force my faith onto everyone else. Society as a whole attempts to mold a law for a land.

Finally I know this is not from the CCC. But I discern Christ’s Sacrifice in giving up his body for us. And when I pray “Lord I am not worthy but only say the word and I shall be healed”, if I am healed and He calls me, then **I follow Jesus **Who when his Father calls someone, told us in Jn 6:37, He will turn away no one.

God bless and peace.