Abortion and Separation of Church and State

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Not all the participants in our early government held that life began at conception (not all were christians either). A common belief was that it was ok for a woman to abort until “quickening”–when the baby begins to move in the womb. Funny thing, when I was an agnostic, I came to very much the same position by my own reason.
Generally, women feel the baby move sometime between 16 and 22 weeks. You are saying that abortion is not okay AFTER that, correct? But is IS acceptable before that time, right?
Okay, what happened between week 15 and week 16 that turned this non-person into a person? What specific event can you identify that happened during that one week in utero that fundamentally changed the rights of this fetus?
Ultrasounds, by the way, detect fetal movement at around 7 or 8 weeks.

Y’know what I find strange. If you ask anyone about any other species - frogs, for example, and you say ‘When does the life of a new frog begin?’ people say it begins when the egg and sperm are joined. It’s that simple. Suddenly, when you are talking about humans, we can’t specifically recall when life begins.
Weird, huh?
 
Before I begin, I would just like to point out that I am in no way pointing fingers, criticizing, or any such thing. I am merely curious and opening a discussion.
Well of course we all know that separation of church and state is an important value in our country. But I am curious: Many Christians opposed to the woman’s right to an abortion, say things such as “It is against God to have one.” But I must wonder: If it is against God, than why can’t Christians just do what is right for them and what they believe, and why can’t other people choose what is right for them? Now I do know that people should believe and vote for what they believe is right, but should hoping and voting to change laws really be a part of that believe?
I know that many non-religious people are against abortion as well, and that there are Catholics that are pro-choice, so perhaps I’ve titled this thread wrong. Then again, America is a country with many religious followers. And I wonder how many senators and representatives are part of a religion.
I guess I may be pointing out very fine lines, or perhaps a line that isn’t there at all. I’m not looking to start an argument, or criticize.
Although on an end note: Nobody is pro-abortion. It’s proper name is “pro-choice”, meaning the person who is pro-choice believes a woman should have the ability to choose what is right for her in a pregnancy. Very few people go around saying “I want babies to die! Pro-abortion!”

As an edit I’d like to say that I know that abortion is a very, very bad act. I am just asking whether we should put it onto other people to believe what we do.
Relativism, liberalism, and materialism has perverted society to the point were man-made “Positive Law” is an affront to God’s Natural Law. This make those laws and the “rights” attributed to them unjust and thus the Church has the right and obligation under God’s Natural Law to oppose and ignore such laws.

In addition, we as Catholics also have the same responsibility to oppose and ignore such unjust “Positive Law”.
 
Here’s the issue: Who is to be protected? The mother or the baby? Prolife asserts that the rights of the baby trump the rights of the mother; Prochoice asserts that the rights of the mother trump the rights of the baby. Both assert powerful arguments that have remained unchanged over the decades. The state has tried to regulate, but neither side is happy with the result.
 
… The most basic right of all is that of life, especially innocent life. …

Furthermore, if the right to life is not protected, what meaning do any other rights have? …

Also, remember that not all rights are protected. Slander is not protected speech. Libel is not protected press. Neither is child pornography. Felons may not own firearms. Religous cults can have practices restricted if they harm others. Likewise, a woman’s right to choose is superceded by the infant’s right to life. The point that scares me is thst if infants within the womb are considered sub-human, who is next? The termanally ill? The mentally disabled? The blind? Stutterers? Christians?

… Rape and incest are horrible crimes, but the infant is not the perpetrator. The infant is the victim as well. Why should he or she be executed? …

For the argument that this is pro-choice, not pro-abortion, this argument makes no sense! Because the only choice involved is the choice to kill babies! …
CWBetts, Thanks for posting this! You said everything I wanted to say! :blessyou: 👍
 
The argument of rape, incest, or life of the mother also are fallicous. Rape and incest are horrible crimes, but the infant is not the perpetrator. The infant is the victim as well. Why should he or she be executed? As far as the life of the mother, when is it acceptable to murder one to save the life of another? I’m not talking about somone giving their own life to save another. When it comes down to it, this is murdering an innocent who has no say in the matter. Besides, I know of no parent who would not sacrifice thier own life to save their child.
how true. i know of a family, the woman was pregnant with her 4th child. they discovered she had leukemia while she was pregnant. abortion and treatment for herself was recommended. she did neither. she gave birth to her child and then sought treatment. sadly, the mother died before the baby was a year old, but she carried a healthy child to term. she gave him life.

99.9% of the time a woman makes a choice to have sex. she knows what the consequences of sex are. making the choice for abortion after her initial choice is murder. women should consider the first choice first.
 
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But I am curious: Many Christians opposed to the woman's right to an abortion, say things such as "It is against God to have one." But I must wonder: If it is against God, than why can't Christians just do what is right for them and what they believe, and why can't other people choose what is right for them?
For the same reason we cannot allow murder after the child is born. One way to look at this is to ask, if the baby is colicky, or does not have the right color, why not put it to death after birth? If it is not healthy or “whole”, why not just put it out of it’s misery?

Why is it not ok to eliminate those from society that I do not think deserve to live? Why should their be a law against killing people? If I think society should be limited only to persons of color, and I want to eliminate all those of caucasian extraction, why can’t people just let me do what is right for me, and they can choose what is right for them?
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Now I do know that people should believe and vote for what they believe is right, but should hoping and voting to change laws really be a part of that believe?
I know that many non-religious people are against abortion as well, and that there are Catholics that are pro-choice, so perhaps I’ve titled this thread wrong.
No, there are no Catholics that are pro-abortion. They have become Protestants, and don’t realize it, or they have excommunicated themselves, and don’t care.
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Then again, America is a country with many religious followers. And I wonder how many senators and representatives are part of a religion.
I guess I may be pointing out very fine lines, or perhaps a line that isn’t there at all. I’m not looking to start an argument, or criticize.
Although on an end note: Nobody is pro-abortion. It’s proper name is “pro-choice”, meaning the person who is pro-choice believes a woman should have the ability to choose what is right for her in a pregnancy. Very few people go around saying “I want babies to die! Pro-abortion!”
I think you are right about people not wanting to take innocent life. Many of those who seek an abortion fall into the lie that what they are “terminating” is really only “the by products of pregnancy”, and not a person.

I also agree that a woman should have the ability to choose what is right for her in a pregancy. Since the taking of innocent life is always wrong, and the protection of innocent life is always right, then every woman should be free to exercise this right in her pregnancy. No woman should be forced to kill the life inside her.
As an edit I’d like to say that I know that abortion is a very, very bad act. I am just asking whether we should put it onto other people to believe what we do.
Really. Rape is a bad act too. I wonder whether we should put our values onto other people by having laws against it? Stealing is also wrong. But, why don’t people just let me steal whatever I want,and allow their own values to govern themselves?
 
The pro-life movement’s focus is entirely on the mother, the suffering, the physical burden of pregnancy, the embarassment if the mother is unwed, the financial burden in the present and the future, the fear of a life of parenthood. All of these are things deserving of our empathy, caring, help. It only demonstrates that they place the mother’s “rights” above that of another. Indeed, it’s poignant to see a young girl pregnant, who cannot afford to raise a child, hasn’t had advanced schooling, hasn’t enjoyed the freedom of youth, etc.
This is true. One should not be “punished” with a child. :rolleyes:
 
Here’s the issue: Who is to be protected? The mother or the baby? Prolife asserts that the rights of the baby trump the rights of the mother; Prochoice asserts that the rights of the mother trump the rights of the baby. Both assert powerful arguments that have remained unchanged over the decades. The state has tried to regulate, but neither side is happy with the result.
Abortinon advocates assert that it is a “right”. OK, for the sake of discussion, let’s say that it actually is. So, the baby becomes a baby only if the mother says it is. What kind of logic is that? Baby - keep it. Not a baby - abort it. Remember that we are talking about the exact same baby (or “tissue mass” - if you must). What power over life or death have we given to girls and women under immense stress…

It would be instructive to examine the unplanned pregnancy rate both before and after Roe v. Wade. Anyone have stats here?

What you protect is human life at all stages. Anything less is immoral. In virtually no cases is it a matter of saving one or the other. It is a matter of irresponsible or immoral behavior leading to an innocent human life being subjected to the death penalty due to being “inconvenient”.

Thank God that neither you nor I were held to be inconvenient.
 
Here’s the issue: Who is to be protected? The mother or the baby? Prolife asserts that the rights of the baby trump the rights of the mother; Prochoice asserts that the rights of the mother trump the rights of the baby. Both assert powerful arguments that have remained unchanged over the decades. The state has tried to regulate, but neither side is happy with the result.
I disagree. The issue is ““What” is to be protected?” ie, What rights are to be protected? It seems that the vast majority of abortions are perpetrated to protect some “right” of the mother (father? parents? family?) that comes nowhere near the gravity that the baby’s right to life should carry.
 
Two things I would like to bring up.
First - The constitution does not create a separation of church and state, it says that the government shall not establish a state religion, and protects our rights to worship without government interference.

Second - abortion is killing an innocent human being.
The fetus is not a spotted owl, coho salmon or old growth redwood, it is a human being. They all are protected, except the unborn human.

I liken this issue to that of slavery which divided our country a little over 140 years ago.
Slavery was considered a question of state rights, or the individual slaveholder rights. The slaves were not given full personhood and therefore didn’t have rights.

There were many people who insisted that this was their right to hold slaves, and didn’t want other people to interfere and most definitely didn’t want government to interfere by taking away their rights.

What I find interesting is that we find the same political parties taking the same side on the right issues.
The democrats were for the state and individual rights to determine if they wanted to have slaves or not, and it was the republican party which said that the slaves themselves had rights.

Either abortion is murder or it isn’t.
It can’t be both ways.

Sort of like what the slaveholders said derogatorily about the people who wanted slaves to be freed and have rights, you can say about me because of my views on the unborn.

I am a fetus lover.
 
I believe that this may have been said before in other threads, but I’ll risk repeating it again. The question about abortion is about human rights. Every human being has the right to be born unless his or her life is take by God through natural means.

The pro-life position is not an imposition of a religious belief on the voter or the legislator. It is a defense of human rights, which this nation along with the civilized nations of the world has promised to protect.

This is not to say that one cannot vote for a pro abortion candidate for because one is conscious of a good that can be achieved, without comprimising one’s commitment to human rights. But this is a very difficult choice to make given what it happening in modern politics.

There are apologists who believe that it is impossible to vote for a pro-abortion candidate without sacricing orcompromising one’s belief in human rights. Then there are apologists and theologians like Archbishop Charles Chaput, OFM Cap. who have explained this well. The right to life is the fundamental issue of all time. Every other issue trumps this one, even capital punishment. The reason for this is that the human being who is still in the mother’s womb is innocent and defenseless. Civilized society owes it to defend the right to live of every human being who cannot defend himself.

Render Unto Caesar by Archibishop Chaput, OFM Cap should be required reading for everyone before voting, Catholics and non Catholics. Chaput puts this into the conext of human rights and takes the question out of the context of religious belief. He uses pure reason and history to show that the State does not have all of the rights that it claims to havae, even in its attempt to protect and represent the rights of all its citizens.

The idea of a State that protects the rights and freedoms of its citizens is a moral good that must be promoted. But the means by which the State does so are often a violation of the State’s own rights. The State does not have the right to rewrite natural law, because it is not its orignal author. Therefore, it cannot edit it to meet the needs of its constituents.

Here is where the Church’s teaching of Religious Freedom enters into the picture. When the State rewrites natural law, it violates religioius freedom. Religious freedom is based on natural law. Citizens have the right to defend the rights of the unborn. It is their moral right. If the State says that the unborn has no rights, then the citizens’ right to defend it is curtailed abrogated.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
JR, I would agree with what you’re saying. Abortion is indeed the taking away of human life.

So why is it allowed? It’s not so much it’s allowed but rather where is the definite line between not human and human. Some believe that the sperm itself is the human or the egg is the human. Some don’t see a human until they actually see something that resembles a human. The Church defines it to be at the moment of conception but some would push scientific evidence that this moment is impossible within 24 hours of intercourse. And so the Church takes it one step further. No BC pill of any kind to kill any potential human life. It takes the position that those that take the pill can potentially abort many human lives within their lifetimes. Yet most politicians would not consider them abortions, therefore they may fall into the “pro-life” camp. This “pro-life” label can be even extended to certain exceptions like aborting because of rape or incest or killing pregnant women in times of war. There seems to be some political game that is made from all this and it isn’t right.

I’ve gone down the list of 3rd and 4th party candidates and note one who considers himself a “pro-life” candidate even though his wife had an abortion several years ago. I assume she made it public at the time. So how would the bishop feel about voting for this candidate, I would wonder.
 
JR, I would agree with what you’re saying. Abortion is indeed the taking away of human life.

So why is it allowed? It’s not so much it’s allowed but rather where is the definite line between not human and human. Some believe that the sperm itself is the human or the egg is the human. Some don’t see a human until they actually see something that resembles a human. The Church defines it to be at the moment of conception but some would push scientific evidence that this moment is impossible within 24 hours of intercourse. And so the Church takes it one step further. No BC pill of any kind to kill any potential human life. It takes the position that those that take the pill can potentially abort many human lives within their lifetimes. Yet most politicians would not consider them abortions, therefore they may fall into the “pro-life” camp. This “pro-life” label can be even extended to certain exceptions like aborting because of rape or incest or killing pregnant women in times of war. There seems to be some political game that is made from all this and it isn’t right.

I’ve gone down the list of 3rd and 4th party candidates and note one who considers himself a “pro-life” candidate even though his wife had an abortion several years ago. I assume she made it public at the time. So how would the bishop feel about voting for this candidate, I would wonder.
Frist, the Catholic Church and other religious denominations never allow abortion.

Second, there is a political game played by politicians, but abortion is not the only toy they play with.

Third, the Church defines human life using the rules of metaphysics. Human life begins the moment that the egg and the sperm cell fuse. The rest is just a biiological process common to all mammals.

The issue is that the State does not have the right to change the laws of nature or overrule natural law.

When voting, one does not vote for a candidate, one votes for the whole good of a nation. When you threaten the very foundations of life or you say that you’re not opposed to someone else doing harm to the very foundations of life, then you disqualify yourself from office. By moral law, only those who are going to protect the good of the State are qualified to lead the State. The right to be born is part of the good of the State. Politicians have not successfully proven that it’s not part of the good. Until they do so, we must continue to believe what classical philosophy has taught us regarding the Republic (See Plato).

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
NTOT,
An abortion is no more a sacrificial rite than having your appendix removed. It is cold-blooded murder. Nothing more, nothing less.
Then you disagree with the Church when it calls murderers, fornicators, adulterers, and murderers idolaters?
Again, there is enough to say about abortion withot making things up.
There is a lot to say about the evil of abortion. No need to deny one of the many things that make it evil.
 
I am convienced that those who say such things as the OP did have no idea what abortion really is. Here is a video that I think all those who are pro abortion should see. It is very graphic but I am now convienced that this is the only way this horrendice crime will ever end. These are people who are being butchered and only a few are speaking out about it. I see no difference in these images than those we say at Rwanda. Horrific and its happening here in our backyards.

I will start a new thread with this same topic.

Again very graphic so only watch if you can.
 
A common belief by whom?
Just do a quick search on quickening. At various times throughout history it has been used as the legal standard for when a human life begins. Some of our forefathers thought this was the appropriate point to give a baby legal protections.
Even in the early Church, much earlier than our early governments, when fetal development was not well understood, it was not “ok” to abort before quickening. It was considered a grave sin of its own rather than the sin of murder as it was classified after quickening.
I don’t doubt that. The Church has the mind of Christ. But we were talking about the separation of Church and state in the US.
 
But we were talking about the separation of Church and state in the US.
Which the majority of the population do not understand. Especially the liberals, mainly because they do not care to understand. They get mad if leather and wood is used to make the Bible.
 
Generally, women feel the baby move sometime between 16 and 22 weeks. You are saying that abortion is not okay AFTER that, correct? But is IS acceptable before that time, right?
I said my former self came to those same conclusions. My former agnostic “reason-guided” self.
Okay, what happened between week 15 and week 16 that turned this non-person into a person? What specific event can you identify that happened during that one week in utero that fundamentally changed the rights of this fetus?
Good question. That’s why it is so hard to argue that we should place some arbitrary point after which abortions are no longer legal.

However, I have heard that some religions teach that the soul does not enter the body at conception but at quickening. I think I recall having read on this forum–somebody please correct me if I’m wrong on this very serious issue–that some Muslim and Jewish circles believe that the soul enters the body at quickening or some other point. Don’t take my word for it though. But I think it would be possible for a religious person to come to that sort of conclusion.
 
Maybe liberals are smart so you could try intelligent speech?
 
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