Abortion Automatically a Mortal Sin?

[LittleSoldier]

**This really is at the root of the reason for your starting this thread. **

NO! Please do NOT presume to tell me why I started a thread. You are not my therapist (I don’t even have one), my spiritual advisor, my priest, or God. You cannot look into my heart or my soul. You are making an assumption and you are WRONG. Please don’t do that to me. I would never do that to you. It appears rather snarky, condescending, and patronizing, especially with a smiley face. I had a headache (and still do) because I am in two threads which are difficult for me and I have TMJD. OK? Please. I want to remain charitable but please don’t play “therapy” with me. That is a very dangerous game.

Mortal Sin = Grave sin= Serious sin (both in terms of the “nature” of the action/omission in itself (abortion is a mortal sin/grave sin/serious sin) and in terms of the “committing” and thus requirement to “confess” of the personal sin)

Nope. A mortal sin is a grave sin. Of course it is a grave sin! But it is a grave sin with conditions; two of 'em: one must KNOW it’s a grave sin, and one must commit this grave sin with FULL CONSENT. Of course it’s a grave sin!

A Few Examples:

CCC1385: “Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.”

Of course! Because if a person has full knowledge of the grave sin and has committed the grave sin with full consent, one has committed a mortal sin! You know though, that is an ambiguous sentence. I am aware that abortion is a grave sin. There are lots of grave sins I am conscious of. So does that mean I can’t receive Communion until I receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation? Sorry, but it does say that - it really does. But that is not what it means, is it? The word “conscious” is the tricky part here. What does “conscious” mean? Commonly used, it means “aware of.” And the reason I am pointing this out is because it shows the ambiguity in parts of the CCC.

From: The Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI

"304. Which sins must be confessed?

1456

All **grave sins **not yet confessed, which a careful examination of conscience brings to mind, must be brought to the sacrament of Penance. The confession of serious sins is the only ordinary way to obtain forgiveness." (see also Canon Law …the term is used there too).

(one sees in the above the use of “grave sin” for what was actually *committed *–with full knowledge and deliberate consent–for we know one is not obliged to confess that which did not have the three aspects needed)

Of course! And that is because a careful examination of conscience that brings to mind any grave sin that was committed with full knowledge and consent would mean that the person has committed a mortal sin - that is what the examination of conscience is for!

1. What is required to receive Holy Communion?

1385-1389

1415
To receive Holy Communion one must be fully incorporated into the Catholic Church and be in the state of grace, that is, not conscious of being in** mortal sin**. Anyone who is conscious of having committed a grave sin must first receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before going to Communion.

(note that one used BOTH to mean the same thing in the same paragraph…)

(note that the words "anyone who is conscious of committing a grave sin…) If I commit a grave sin and know I have done so then of course I have committed a mortal sin! I don’t understand why you don’t see this! All mortal sin is grave sin. Of course it is! But not all grave sin is mortal sin. Let me give an example, using abortion. Let’s say I have a direct abortion. It is a grave sin. It is a grave act. It is a grave matter. I know this and I do it anyway and I do it with full consent. Nobody is pressuring me. I know it’s wrong but I did it. I have committed a grave sin. I have committed a mortal sin. I have met all three criteria needed for a sin to be mortal.

Now let’s say I have a direct abortion but I didn’t know that it is a grave sin and someone forced me into having the abortion. I haven’t committed a grave sin! I haven’t committed a mortal sin. I have not met the three criteria for committing a mortal sin.

---

“However, it must be remembered that the church, guided by faith in this great sacrament, teaches that no Christian who is conscious of** grave sin** can receive the eucharist before having obtained God’s forgiveness.”

Pope John Paul II Reconciliatio et Paenitentia 17

Please see above.

---

In MISERICORDIA DEI he also noted:

“Individual and integral confession and absolution are the sole ordinary means by which the faithful, conscious of grave sin, are reconciled with God and the Church; only physical or moral impossibility excuses from such confession, in which case reconciliation can be obtained in other ways”

and

Since “the faithful are obliged to confess, according to kind and number, **all grave sins **committed after Baptism of which they are conscious after careful examination and which have not yet been directly remitted by the Church’s power of the keys​

And in a speech from Pope John Paul II

“The sacrament of Penance is meant to take away personal sins committed after Baptism: first of all mortal sins, then venial. If the penitent has committed more than one mortal sin, they can only be remitted all at once. In fact, the remission of serious sin consists in the infusion of the sanctifying grace which has been lost, and grace is incompatible with any and every** serious sin**. Venial sins are to be regarded differently…”

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[LittleSoldier]

-----continuation of last post-----

and in ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA

“If a Christian’s conscience is burdened by serious sin, then the path of penance through the sacrament of Reconciliation becomes necessary for full participation in the Eucharistic Sacrifice.”

Yes! Mortal sin is very serious! It removes us from God and if we die while in a state of mortal sin we have committed a sin against the Holy Spirit and have chosen to be damned for eternity. That’s about as serious as one can get, at least on a personal level. But it doesn’t mean that all grave sin is mortal sin, or as I wish it were worded, not all grave matter is mortal sin. You still need those three criteria. And if a Christian’s conscience is burdened by serious sin, it probably is mortal sin. Otherwise why would his/her conscience be burdened? I suppose it could be because of venial sin but I think it’s also quite possible that a burdened conscience, especially one that has been examined in preparation for the Sacrament of Reconciliation, knows about mortal sin.

---

In another place he said in 2007:

And Pope Benedict XVI in his Catecheses with Children said:

"Only in that case, when you are in a state of “mortal” sin, in other words, grave (sin), is it necessary to go to confession before Communion. This is my first point. " In 2005

“The faithful, in their turn, must seek to receive and to venerate the Most Holy Sacrament with piety and devotion, eager to welcome the Lord Jesus with faith, and having recourse, whenever necessary, to the sacrament of reconciliation so as to purify the soul from every grave sin.”

His Holiness misspoke. That is a shame. Fortunately I know he is a fallible human being unless he is speaking ex cathedra.

And I found this:

These definitions of mortal and venial sin are pretty straightforward enough; which is why we remember them. What we forget often is that we were most likely taught about another type of sin: grave sin (another common name for this is ‘serious sin’). What! You might be asking; I have never heard of that. Well, there is a good chance that you were taught this at an age where you probably didn’t understand the difference between mortal sin and grave sin. If on the other hand you were never taught this in CCD or in your religion class then you are the victim of something that has plagued the Church for the past 30 years: bad catechesis.

(ASIDE: As I often say, I am very poorly catechized. In fact, I am beginning to think that I am the most poorly catechized Catholic in the entire world. Thanks, Sisters! Oh, sorry, back to the article ):

So what is grave sin? In order to understand what grave sin is you have to understand completely what mortal sin is. Mortal sin is deadly; it literally kills our relationship with God. Mortal sin is the worst possible thing EVER. Why is this? Mortal sin destroys our relationship with God, and if we persist in mortal sin, it eventually will kill our very own conscience. Our conscience tells us what is ‘right’ and ‘wrong’? But if we commit mortal sin we are in effect telling our conscience that ‘wrong’ is ‘right’ and after a while we can make our conscience believe ‘wrong’ is ‘right’.

Think about a person who is a murderer. That person most likely began treating other people badly a long time before they became a murderer; but after treating people badly for so long the person decided that other people had no worth and thus was able to justify killing another person. This is often the case although not always this drastic. The murderer has in effect killed his conscience and severed his relationship with God. Now Christ pours grace perpetually upon that murderer trying to bring him back to him offering forgiveness; but it will be very difficult for that man to accept Christ’s forgiveness because for him he has done nothing ‘wrong’ and he is not sorry because his conscience is telling him that what he has done is ‘right’. His belief in ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ is reversed. When the murderer first started out abusing people he knew it was wrong somewhere deep down, but he choose to continue doing so, until his conscience was so desensitized that it no longer knew ‘right’ from ‘wrong’.

This is what mortal sin is. This is what mortal sin does to us. So how can you tell if you have committed a mortal sin? What is the point where a sin goes from being venial to mortal? There are three conditions for a mortal sin to be a mortal sin.

1. It has to be of ‘grave’ matter.
2. You have to know it is of ‘grave’ matter.
3. You have to actually act with your full consent (thinking about murder vs. actually committing murder).

(ASIDE: See those three criteria again? Ooops, back to the article):

**So it has to be a ‘grave sin’, you have to know it is a ‘grave sin’, and you have to actually commit the grave sin.

So what is a grave matter/sin? Simply put, a grave sin is seriously breaking any one of the Ten Commandments. Well, you might ask isn’t all sin venial and mortal breaking one of the Ten Commandments? No. Venial sin covers a large multitude of things not included in the ten commandments; personal failings and faults due to our human nature, acts of laziness, acts of omission; things not covered by the ten commandments, as well as breaking the Ten Commandments in less serious ways; white lies, stealing paper clips and pens from the office, etc. Mortal sin is always involved in breaking one (or more) of the Ten Commandments in a serious way with full knowledge and full consent.**

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[LittleSoldier]

-----continuation of last post-----

The link to the above article follows:

sites.google.com/a/stpaulcatholic.net/parish/sacraments/eucharist-liturgy-of-he-eucharist/questions-about-the-liturgy-of-the-eucharist-holy-mass/is-it-a-mortal-sin-to-miss-mass-on-sunday (bolding and underlining and asides added by this poster for emphasis)

Note that those three criteria keep popping up. You know, grave matter (or sin), FULL KNOWLEDGE, FULL (deliberate) CONSENT? Why would those even be listed in the CCC if it makes no difference? If a 13 year-old girl is literally dragged into an abortuary and an abortion is forced upon her and her child, she has committed a mortal sin? Uh uh. Is the abortion a grave matter? Yes. Is it a grave sin? Yes. Has this girl committed a mortal sin? Probably not and that is the reason I started the thread - because God is merciful and does not punish His precious lambs by damnation for actions for which they are not FULLY culpable and culpability includes full knowledge and consent.

And THAT is what was missing in the apologist’s response and it’s dangerous to mislead people. I have been misled too many times. You have used “mortal,” “grave,” and “serious” as synonyms but they really aren’t synonyms. It is not that simple.

I know I have presented only one source and it is not official. However, I found it within 30 seconds of googling, so I’m fairly sure I can find more. And as this is the longest post I have EVER written, I think I’d better stop it here (with the three or four posts this is going to take) before I introduce anything else.

And yes, I still have a headache. A TMJD headache exacerbated by stress.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Do not get into this discussions with Bookcat if you do not want a headache.
I went through your same experience a few months ago by PMing back and forth with him, it was frustrating but a really good learning experience.

My Mom (who has now passed on, God rest her soul) used to say that I was stubborn. I would always say “Mom, you know I’m not stubborn! I’m tenacious.” And then I would smile. I used to work for the health department and we had a joke about how arguing with the inspector is like wrestling with a pig in the mud; after awhile you realize the inspector is enjoying it. It wasn’t always true but once in awhile…

Thanks for the warning, though. I’m very poorly catechized but I’ve been reading and studying and lurking and posting for awhile now (I changed my user name and lost about 800 posts and all my time) and I feel more secure in Church teaching. I’m always willing to concede because I want to know truth. I’ve conceded twice now and it turned out that the first time I had actually been right and shouldn’t have conceded. So I’m reversing that one and my first real concession was in this thread and it turns out that I was right when I said that abortion was murder, even when I got slammed so many times when I said it. It is murder, and slaughter, and torture for both child and mother and I loathe the thought of it. My Mom’s doctor wanted to abort me, so this is personal for me.

 

[Bookcat]

NO! Please do NOT presume to tell me why I started a thread. You are not my therapist (I don’t even have one), my spiritual advisor, my priest, or God. You cannot look into my heart or my soul. You are making an assumption and you are WRONG. Please don’t do that to me.

I was not reading your heart or soul or telling you what your intention was in starting the thread.

I was simply noting that the root of the question of your thread is that the terms are used interchangible.

The Apologist in stating:

"Dear friend,

Of course, it’s a sin; a mortal sin! Once the sperm and egg have united, a new person exists with an immortal soul. To deliberately kill it is to take innocent human life.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P. "

He is referring to the fact that abortion is a mortal sin --on the objectively level.

He was not addressing if a particular person was guilty of mortal sin. But the sin in itself.

When one looks at the way the Church uses the terms “Mortal sin” “Grave sin” and “Serious sin” --they are used to stand in for each other both on an objective level (the kind of sin in itself) and on the subjective level (if the person is culpable for committing such).

 

[Bookcat]

**This really is at the root of the reason for your starting this thread. **

Mortal Sin = Grave sin= Serious sin (both in terms of the “nature” of the action/omission in itself (abortion is a mortal sin/grave sin/serious sin) and in terms of the “committing” and thus requirement to “confess” of the personal sin)

A Few Examples:

CCC1385: “Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.”

From: The Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI

"304. Which sins must be confessed?

1456

All **grave sins **not yet confessed, which a careful examination of conscience brings to mind, must be brought to the sacrament of Penance. The confession of serious sins is the only ordinary way to obtain forgiveness." (see also Canon Law …the term is used there too).

(one sees in the above the use of “grave sin” for what was actually *committed *–with full knowledge and deliberate consent–for we know one is not obliged to confess that which did not have the three aspects needed)

1. What is required to receive Holy Communion?

1385-1389
1415

To receive Holy Communion one must be fully incorporated into the Catholic Church and be in the state of grace, that is, not conscious of being in** mortal sin**. Anyone who is conscious of having committed a grave sin must first receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before going to Communion.

(note that one used BOTH to mean the same thing in the same paragraph…)

---

“However, it must be remembered that the church, guided by faith in this great sacrament, teaches that no Christian who is conscious of** grave sin** can receive the eucharist before having obtained God’s forgiveness.”

Pope John Paul II Reconciliatio et Paenitentia 17

---

In MISERICORDIA DEI he also noted:

“Individual and integral confession and absolution are the sole ordinary means by which the faithful, conscious of grave sin, are reconciled with God and the Church; only physical or moral impossibility excuses from such confession, in which case reconciliation can be obtained in other ways”

and

Since “the faithful are obliged to confess, according to kind and number, **all grave sins **committed after Baptism of which they are conscious after careful examination and which have not yet been directly remitted by the Church’s power of the keys

---

And in a speech from Pope John Paul II

“The sacrament of Penance is meant to take away personal sins committed after Baptism: first of all mortal sins, then venial. If the penitent has committed more than one mortal sin, they can only be remitted all at once. In fact, the remission of serious sin consists in the infusion of the sanctifying grace which has been lost, and grace is incompatible with any and every** serious sin**. Venial sins are to be regarded differently…”

and in ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA

“If a Christian’s conscience is burdened by serious sin, then the path of penance through the sacrament of Reconciliation becomes necessary for full participation in the Eucharistic Sacrifice.”

---

And Pope Benedict XVI in his Catecheses with Children said:

"Only in that case, when you are in a state of “mortal” sin, in other words, grave (sin), is it necessary to go to confession before Communion. This is my first point. " In 2005

In another place he said in 2007:

“The faithful, in their turn, must seek to receive and to venerate the Most Holy Sacrament with piety and devotion, eager to welcome the Lord Jesus with faith, and having recourse, whenever necessary, to the sacrament of reconciliation so as to purify the soul from every grave sin.”

This is the way the Church uses the terms…sometimes in the very same paragraph …to indicate the very same thing.

 

[Bookcat]

Here is another example from the Catechism:

“The sexual act must take place exclusively within marriage. Outside of marriage it always constitutes a grave sin and excludes one from sacramental communion.” (2390)

Note that the Catechism is not making here any reference to if the person is doing so with full knowledge and complete consent. –Just as the Apologist did.

Because it is referring the kind of action in itself. The the moral object.

It is always and everywhere a mortal sins/grave sin/serious sin. Such is referring to what it is in itself. An intrinsically gravely sinful action.

As to if a particular person is guilty of grave sin if they engage in such action --they would need to look at the knowledge and consent involved.

One needs full knowledge and deliberate consent.

The Apologist was getting at there the fact that abortion is always and everywhere a grave sin/mortal sin. He is only discussing the object “abortion”. Not a particular persons state.

 

[Bookcat]

. I have been misled too many times. You have used “mortal,” “grave,” and “serious” as synonyms but they really aren’t synonyms. It is not that simple.

.

They are certainly synonyms and are used as such in by the Church (in the Latin too).

Is sex outside marriage (or abortion and other intrinsically gravely evil actions etc) always and everywhere mortal sin? -grave sin? -serious sin? Yes. In their nature.

But does that mean that all you have to do is do them and you have committed a grave sin? No. As you and I noted one needs also full knowledge and deliberate consent in order to commit a mortal sin.

Hence the Catechism and Compendium states that one needs to have a grave matter and full knowledge and complete consent to commit a mortal sin (grave sin…and thus be in need of confession).

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I believe the poster was referring to the sin of obtaining an abortion.

I understand, but others reading the thread may be more literal and may think that the response was literally that the young girl had committed NO SIN whatsoever.

 

[Bookcat]

Now could the apologist continued the answer beyond “if abortion at an early stage is a sin” …and got into if the particular couple are guilty of mortal sin…going into the kind of knowledge and consent one needs to commit a mortal sin…sure. But his answer there was directed towards the objective “is early abortion a sin?” -stating that it is a sin and is in fact a mortal sin (grave sin). I guess with all the questions they answer they sometimes could be too brief for some of us readers…So I understand the desire to see the subjective aspect brought into the answer.

My posts here have been to seek to throw some light on what he did answer. That the language was valid for the intrinsic evil of abortion at any time.

That one can say truly “abortion is a mortal sin”.

That the terms “grave sin” and “mortal sin” are interchangable and can be used in the way he did.

They are indeed synonyms.

And there is an objective use and a subjective use of the same terms.

 

[Bookcat]

A(

Now could the apologist continued the answer beyond “if abortion at an early stage is a sin” …and got into if the particular couple are guilty of mortal sin…going into the kind of knowledge and consent one needs to commit a mortal sin…sure. But his answer there was directed towards the objective “is early abortion a sin?” -stating that it is a sin and is in fact a mortal sin (grave sin). I guess with all the questions they answer they sometimes could be too brief for some of us readers…t I am sure the apologist has wrote about in other places. But I certainly understand the desire to see the subjective aspect brought into the answer.

My posts here have been to seek to throw some light on what he did answer. That the language was valid for the intrinsic evil of abortion at any time. Thats what he was getting at there.

That one can say truly “abortion is a mortal sin”.

That the terms “grave sin” and “mortal sin” are interchangable and can be used in the way he did.

They are indeed synonyms.

And there is an objective use and a subjective use of the same terms.

Your point though that in order to* commit *a grave sin (serious sin/mortal sin) one needs not only a grave “matter” but also full knowledge and complete consent is certainly very important.

 

[Brendan]

abortion is always a sin.

A sin is an offense against God. Abortion is always offensive to God, ergo it is always, with no exceptions, sinful. It is grave matter, and thus always gravely sinful.

What comes into question is a persons CULPABILITY to the sin, to what extent that the person’s soul is damaged.

It is possible for a person to engage in a gravely sinful act, but do so in a way that does not imping guilt on their soul. A person who misses Mass on Sunday because they got the current day of the week wrong. God does not impinge guilt on such a person.

So the key quetion is not if abortion is mortally sinful. It is. The question is the level of culpability the person has.

 

[Bookcat]

All mortal sins are grave sins but not all grave sins are mortal sins. I’m having a problem understanding what you are saying. Abortion is a grave sin - that is ONE criterion. But all three criteria must be present for abortion to be a mortal sin. The objectivity is inherent in the first criterion only.

In a way you are correct because abortion is objectively grave. But the other two criteria are not objective but subjective.

Is this what you are saying? Are we talking past each other?

I have a headache.

The term best used in getting into the “three criteria” in order to commit a grave sin/mortal sin is the phrase used there in the Catechism.

One needs “grave matter” full knowledge and deliberate consent in order to commit a mortal sin (grave sin).

Abortion is a grave sin in itself. But when one is getting into what is needed to commit a grave sin --the helpful term to avoid confusion is “grave matter” (not that you have not used it in some of your posts above…just that I think that helps to bring clarity here)

 

[Bookcat]

Sometimes there can be a confusion among readers and they write or think things like:

A. There is venial sin and grave sin and mortal sin.

There are only two basic categories of actual sin --that is grave sin (mortal/serious) and venial sin

B. Grave sin does not = mortal sin (as if they where two different things)

Grave sin and Mortal sin are interchangable terms not meaning two different things -they only bring out qualities such as the seriousness of the sin or the effects of the sin. Grave sin = mortal sin. But not all sins “committed” by persons that have “grave matter” are grave sins (mortal sins/serious sins) for in order to commit a grave sin (to incur grave guilt) one needs full knowledge and deliberate consent)

C. Murder is not a grave sin unless one has full knowledge and complete consent.

Murder is always a grave sin. The full knowledge and complete consent come into play when it is a question of is the person “guilty” of grave sin.

 

[sw85]

If a young girl is forced against her will into an abortion clinic I don’t think she has committed a mortal sin. She is lacking free will at this point.

This is true. I also doubt it’s very common, at least outside the Third World. Even so, at that point the mortal sin is on the parents. So it’s still always a mortal sin, in that the burden must always be placed on someone – but it’s not always on the woman who gets the abortion.

There are also circumstances involved here. Obviously a woman compelled to get an abortion at gunpoint, who is dragged kicking and screaming into the clinic and must be sedated before the abortion can be administered, is free of all guilt because consent of the will is totally lacking. But less compulsion means less mitigation. A woman who is told she’ll be kicked out of the house if she doesn’t get one is less free of guilt; in such a case, it is almost certainly still a mortal sin. Her consent is not impaired.

At any rate, it is always true that one cannot say “I didn’t know abortion was a sin” and expect to be let off the hook. It doesn’t take much rational reflection to know killing your baby is wrong. Full knowledge pertains to knowledge of one’s participation in the act, not knowledge of the graveness of the act.

In the scenario I outlined in my posts above there is a 13 year-old girl who is forced to go through an abortion. With all due respect, it is not always true that a person is always free not to get an abortion. A 13 year-old may be physically able to become pregnant and carry that pregnancy to term but she is not an adult when it comes to cognitive processing and decision making. She is still a child and she is a minor child. And her father can literally drag her to the car, throw her in, and take her to an abortion clinic where an abortion will be forced on her - against her will. “Doctors” who perform abortions are not the most ethical of physicians and many aren’t even doctors at all.

The third criteria for a mortal sin is “deliberate consent.” It is my understanding from what I have been told by priests that this means full consent. Mitigating factors that reduce culpability to less than deliberate consent result in the abortion not being a mortal sin. It is God and priests who are able to determine whether mitigating factors are sufficient - not you and not me.

As for “everyone knowing,” does that include the mentally retarded and the insane? What about the rare 10 year-old girl who becomes pregnant? Does she know?

It seems that you think this 13 year-old girl would be guilty of a mortal sin. Do you?

See my words above. Re: the mentally retarded, I imagine the capacity to discern goods is pretty seriously impaired there so they are largely incapable of sin (not a theologian so I can’t say for sure). As for the insane, I have always understood extreme mental illness to impair consent.

All mortal sins are grave sins but not all grave sins are mortal sins. I’m having a problem understanding what you are saying. Abortion is a grave sin - that is ONE criterion. But all three criteria must be present for abortion to be a mortal sin. The objectivity is inherent in the first criterion only.

In a way you are correct because abortion is objectively grave. But the other two criteria are not objective but subjective.

Is this what you are saying? Are we talking past each other?

I have a headache.

No, an abortion is “grave matter.” A sin is not a sin unless it is knowingly and freely chosen. Otherwise it is merely disorder or evil. A “grave sin” is, by definition, a “mortal sin,” which is to say, it is a sin pertaining to grave matter.

 

[Bookcat]

No, an abortion is “grave matter.” A sin is not a sin unless it is knowingly and freely chosen. Otherwise it is merely disorder or evil. A “grave sin” is, by definition, a “mortal sin,” which is to say, it is a sin pertaining to grave matter.

Right - A “grave sin” is, by definition, a “mortal sin,” which is to say, it is a sin pertaining to grave matter.

One can use the term “grave sin” or “mortal sin” or “serious sin” to refer to the act itself (though it is best to use “grave matter” when discussing culpability). In using such terms here the Church and Moral Theology are referring to the objective nature of the act. In itself.

By definition one can thus say: “abortion is a grave sin” “abortion is a mortal sin” “abortion is a serious sin”.

When it gets into if a person has committed a grave sin (mortal sin /serious sin) then one by definition needs to have full knowledge and complete consent.

So then one would further say that by definition one does not commit a mortal sin (grave sin/ serious sin) unless one has grave matter, full knowledge and complete consent.

 

[PeterGStanley]

So if someone who gets an abortion and does not believe it to be a sin - does not commit a mortal sin - so only by knowledge and consent one can only commit a mortal sin.If your not catholic , don’t believe in God , you can’t commit a mortal sin because you don’t know the seriousness of your sin.Hmmm something seems wrong with this - some people are accountable and others are not depending on your knowledge of sin.So knowledge can condemn you .
This seems to apply to fully practicing Catholics who have full knowledge of their faith and sin ( many don’t have full understanding ) and have read the CCC. You can’t say they have sinned by not trying to understand the faith as they don’t know any better.
The more knowledge you have of the faith the more accountable you are for your sins - which does make sense - I’m not really liking this but what can I do.

 

[Bookcat]

So if someone who gets an abortion and does not believe it to be a sin…

God alone knows absolutely for certain.

And a person can commit a mortal sin without being Catholic and certainly without knowing the terms we use…or knowing this aspect of moral theology…

(and it is not full understanding but full knowledge…)

We can know many things --like the horror of killing ones child --by natural law.

 

[LittleSoldier]

This is where the terminology comes in. It IS a mortal sin *always and everywhere *-- on the objective level of the thing itself. The grave intrinsic evil. This is what they were getting at.

As to if someone “committed” a mortal sin – that is another matter.

I know! And I am not going to get into this with you. I wrote one sentence in one of my posts incorrectly but it was a long post and I missed the deadline for editing. If she has an abortion she *has *committed a grave sin. But she has not committed a mortal sin. She has not removed herself completely from God. She has NOT DAMNED HERSELF. If she commits a grave sin (grave matter, grave act) without full knowledge and consent she has not committed a mortal sin. If you disagree with this I can’t help you.

A person cannot accidentally damn herself. God is omniscient and omnibenevolent and He does not send people to hell who have committed a grave sin but have not committed a mortal sin because they have not met the three criteria (remember, they have to meet ALL of them) that are necessary. The emphasis should ALWAYS be on God’s love. ALWAYS - not ridiculous ambiguous terms used without realizing that they are not clear to the average person. I will never believe that is the intent of the Magisterium.

I think we are talking past each other. And I see no point in discussing this in post after post after post or with mega-posts or with uncharitable remarks about why I started a thread ( ). The apologist’s response was not clear; it was at the very least ambiguous and when someone is asking about the life of a human being snuffed out via abortion (or any other part of the Catholic Faith) an apologist must be clear.

 

[Bookcat]

If she has an abortion she *has *committed a grave sin. But she has not committed a mortal sin.

No. A person who has done something which is “grave matter” (what is objectively also called a grave sin/mortal sin/serious sin --as in “murder is a grave sin”)-- but does not have the full knowledge or complete consent then they have NOT committed a grave sin.

They have committed a venial sin --if they have committed a sin at all.

(I presume for discussion here that the person does not have either the needed knowledge or needed consent- I am not addressing any particular fictional or real event here)