Abortion Clinics on Edge After Manifesto

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sweetchuck:
I think part of the reason pro-deathers feel so threatened is because according to their own philosophical train of thought Rudolph’s manifesto is logically flawless. For years, the utilitarian justification of abortion is that too many people will suffer if one person is born, so, make one suffer for the sake of many. This is Eric Rudolph’s logic. It is completely legitimate if you are a utilitarian, and is a sound and rational response, as pro-deathers may realize.

(In other words: “THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS.”)

(Both reasons demonstrate, of course, why Catholics should not be utilitiarians.)
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No, I think Rudolph is not saying “the end justifies the means” and if he is then I would have to reject that. Catholic doctrine teaches that one may never commit sin in the effort to combat sin. Catholic doctrine teaches that the end does not justify committing sin.

What Rudolph is saying is that it is not sinful to use force to defeat evil. This is in accord with Catholic doctrine that teaches that the use of deadly force to defend one’s person or the person of another from a deadly attack is morally justified and is not sinful. Rudolph is saying that a government that sanctions the killing of innocent human beings has no moral authority and should be brought down, by force if necessary.

It is not sinful to use deadly force to defend against unjust deadly force. Were this not true then noone would be able to defend their own life from those who would take it.
 
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Trelow:
Legitimate defense by miliitary force requires:

. . . .]
“–there must be serious prospects of success.”
Here is where we the conditions are not met as far as taking up martial action against the government. This condition was met as the others for entrance into World War 2.

. . . .]
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Perhaps this condition is not met at this time, but it need not remain so. As I recall the race riots of the '60’s they were pretty effective in getting the government to pay attention to the needs of the people at that time. The force used does not have to actually defeat the government military force, it only has to cause a sufficent level of disturbance to cause the government to change the injustice that is being perpretrated on the downtrodden. If our founding fathers held the view that the pacifist hold today regarding fighting abortion, we would be bowing down to the King of England even today.

There is a saying that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results. We have be fighting abortion for 30+ years in the courts and in the legislatures and we have gotten nowhere. Are we going to continue doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results? Are we insane?

Rudolph knowingly placed his life on the line to save the lives of others. He took up the sword when the pen failed to correct the wrong. I cannot say that he was wrong in that, although I can say that some of his targets were wrong.
 
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All4lifetoo:
Perhaps this condition is not met at this time, but it need not remain so. As I recall the race riots of the '60’s they were pretty effective in getting the government to pay attention to the needs of the people at that time. The force used does not have to actually defeat the government military force, it only has to cause a sufficent level of disturbance to cause the government to change the injustice that is being perpretrated on the downtrodden. If our founding fathers held the view that the pacifist hold today regarding fighting abortion, we would be bowing down to the King of England even today.

There is a saying that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results. We have be fighting abortion for 30+ years in the courts and in the legislatures and we have gotten nowhere. Are we going to continue doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results? Are we insane?

Rudolph knowingly placed his life on the line to save the lives of others. He took up the sword when the pen failed to correct the wrong. I cannot say that he was wrong in that, although I can say that some of his targets were wrong.
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And the race riots were wrong. Just because something works doesn’t mean that it is the right thing to do. The founding father simply declared independence, therefore a war was unjustly brought against them.

The people want abortion! That is why we get nowhere. Bombing and assassinating folks doesn’t help.
 
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abcdefg:
How many times do I have to tell you the goverment isn’t the enemy?😉
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:banghead:

Ok, go and start shooting people at an abortion mill. If a civilian engaging in baby slaughtering activities shoots you, you win. If an official of the government shoots you, I win.
 
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Trelow:
And the race riots were wrong. Just because something works doesn’t mean that it is the right thing to do. The founding father simply declared independence, therefore a war was unjustly brought against them.

The people want abortion! That is why we get nowhere. Bombing and assassinating folks doesn’t help.
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You are 100% correct when you say the people want abortion. If they did not we would elect representatives and senators who would eliminate legal abortion by Constitutional amendment. That is probably the strongest argument against Rudolph and violence. It is not simply the “government” that is in the wrong. It is we the people!
 
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All4lifetoo:
You are 100% correct when you say the people want abortion. If they did not we would elect representatives and senators who would eliminate legal abortion by Constitutional amendment. That is probably the strongest argument against Rudolph and violence. It is not simply the “government” that is in the wrong. It is we the people!
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For the sake of my sanity I shall withdraw from this discussion. I feel like the kindergarden teacher how has to keep telling Johnny why he can’t eat paste, only to hear him say, “But it’s so nice and minty!”

Church teaching is clear. And while your zeal is admirable, you are blinded by it.

Heh. I was called a pacifist today! First time ever, I usually get warmonger.
 
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Trelow:
Thank you for the clarification.

What then? What would be the next recorse after removing her form the home? Where woudl they go? How would they mantain control of the situation? Would there be serious prospects for sucess?

Don’t get me wrong, I think it is a noble idea. But I cannot forsee a circumstance where it would be sucessful. It would be for vanity more than not, and paint the pro-life community in a negative light to those we could win over throught other recourse. Civilization abhors chaos.
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Better than letting an innocent dehydrate to death. I’d be looking to take her out of the state/country. Obviously, great planning would have to be involved. An honest attempt would be much better than what we essentially did - which was little to nothing. All of this is hypothetical. I still maintain that Jeb Bush should have intervened under the law using his executive powers. The reason he did not is he didn’t believe he had enough popular support.
 
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Brad:
Better than letting an innocent dehydrate to death. I’d be looking to take her out of the state/country. Obviously, great planning would have to be involved. An honest attempt would be much better than what we essentially did - which was little to nothing. All of this is hypothetical. I still maintain that Jeb Bush should have intervened under the law using his executive powers. The reason he did not is he didn’t believe he had enough popular support.
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I don;t think that would have been feasible given the amount of media coverage, you wouldn’t have been able to make it out. Think OJ white bronco.

And I agree regarding Governor Bush.
 
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Trelow:
I don;t think that would have been feasible given the amount of media coverage, you wouldn’t have been able to make it out. Think OJ white bronco.

And I agree regarding Governor Bush.
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It would have been feasible if done well before the national media got it’s grubby hands on it.
 
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