Abortion Doctor Geroge Tiller Murdered this morning

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Neither the moral or legal doctrine of self-defense and defense of others applies here. If you are convinced that your next door neighbor is planning to kill someone on Monday, you cannot just go next door and kill him on Sunday. That is not defense of others in either the legal or moral sense of the term.
 
Neither the moral or legal doctrine of self-defense and defense of others applies here. If you are convinced that your next door neighbor is planning to kill someone on Monday, you cannot just go next door and kill him on Sunday. That is not defense of others in either the legal or moral sense of the term.
Thanks for clarifying this. Personally, I know nothing about the various doctrines mentioned here, but what you are saying certainly makes sense to me.
 
I quite agree with the first and the third, but, fraternally, I question the second. According to our faith, if a man shows up at your house with the intent to kill you, you have the right to apply all necessary force–up to and including lethal force–to prevent him from succeeding. This operates under the principle of double effect: as the Catechism writes, borrowing from Aquinas, “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.” (CCC 2263)

Similiarly, if a gunman comes to your house with the intent to kill your children, you may apply necessary (perhaps lethal) force to prevent that, as well. Similarly, if you encounter a gunman on the street who intends to mug and kill a hobo, you have a right and duty to defend the hobo, too. If you are at a friend’s house and that friend tries to shoot his own children, you have the right and duty to apply necessary force–up to and including lethal force–to act in the child’s self-defense. If you are a spy operating behind enemy lines and you see a duly appointed local law enforcement officer preparing to execute a Jewish baby, you have the right and duty to act in the child’s self-defense–and, because local law is against you, this will very possibly (and regrettably) mean no less than lethal force. If you are a citizen of a nation in which you see a duly appointed local law enforcement officer preparing to execute a Jewish baby, you still have the right and duty to act in the child’s self-defense, just as the spy would. If you are a citizen of a nation where you see a private citizen legally preparing to carry out the execution of a Jewish baby, you have the right and duty to act in the child’s self-defense. If you are a citizen of a nation where you see a private citizen legally preparing to carry out the mass execution of Jew babies, you have the right and duty to act in the children’s self-defense. And, finally, if you are a citizen of a nation where you see a private citizen legally preparing to carry out the mass execution of unborn babies, Jewish or otherwise, you have the right and duty to act in the children’s self-defense.

This does not mean that Mr. Roeder’s assassination was legitimate. While defense of the innocent is the right and duty of all Catholics, the Church holds that five conditions must be met before violence or lethal force may be permitted in defending against local civil law:

Those conditions were clearly not all met in this case, and so Mr. Roeder’s decision to take the life of Mr. Tiller was illegitimate and immoral. However, I take issue with the claim that Mr. Roeder was unequivocally in the wrong. It seems to me that he was not. It appears to me that the teachings of the Church (as well as sound common sense) clearly illustrate that, in slightly different circumstances, in slightly different times, conducted in the right mindset, Mr. Roeder’s actions could have been condoned. Dr. Tiller of course had the inalienable right to life, and our Church is not about “an eye for an eye,” but the Holy Church does show us how Mr. Tiller’s life could nonetheless have justifiably been taken under the related principles of double effect, the right to self-defense, and the right to armed resistance. Armed resistance in such cases is not vigilantism; it is a defense of natural human law against those in power who assail it. It is a restoration of the fundamental rights upon which all valid civil law, all legitimate civil authority, is founded.

I do not condone Mr. Roeder’s actions, nor am I advocating further acts of violence against abortionists. Such acts clearly fall short of the high standards the Church sets for such acts of armed resistance, and will undoubtedly cause great setbacks for the anti-abortion movement with few repercussions for the pro-abortion-rightsers. I do, however, object to those who condemn Mr. Roeder with a too-broad brush, or who equate his unjustified killing with the brutal murders which provoked it.
**
Thank you.** Someone was*** finally able*** to articulate, in a** very reasoned way**, all of the*** complexities of this case***-it just isn’t as "cut and dried" as so many of these well-meaning posters make it out to be.
Thank you again.
 
**
Thank you.** Someone was*** finally able*** to articulate, in a** very reasoned way**, all of the*** complexities of this case***-it just isn’t as "cut and dried" as so many of these well-meaning posters make it out to be.
Thank you again.
I agree with Gabriella here. Thank you Wowbagger for your post.
 
Frankly, wowbagger, your post is a contradiction in terrms.

How can you say on one hand, “Roeder’s actions were justified” and on the other hand “Roeder’s actions were immoral”? It’s one or the other.
 
This person is only a suspect, and so the OP is jumping the gun by saying that this man killed the abortion doctor.
 
God’s law and the** natural law are what man’s laws* are based on***-or should be. That’s why man’s law punishes men for murder…and why good men sometimes violate an unjust man’s law to obey a Higher law-God’s law/.(in the case of slavery, abortion, torture, etc.)
And sometimes God’s wrath is manifested through natural disasters(ie.floods-see Genesis)
and often times through out salvation history, when the “faithful” broke faith with God, He allowed their enemies to overtake them. Some
striking similarities
** here,no?
No.

You’re putting your own spin on Tiller’s murder. If you don’t like abortion, that’s fine, but as long as it’s the law of the land, Tiller’s murder was illegal.

Obeying your “higher law” is arbitrary and capricious - you’re not a judge appointed by God or anyone else. Protest is acceptable. Murder is not. This is a no-brainer.

God gave man a free will. There’s absolutely no evidence that He’s interferring in selective acts of man.

Tiller is dead, but his clinic opens up again this week. Nothing accomplished by Mr. Roeder except making pro-lifers look bad.
 
I quite agree with the first and the third, but, fraternally, I question the second. According to our faith, if a man shows up at your house with the intent to kill you, you have the right to apply all necessary force–up to and including lethal force–to prevent him from succeeding. This operates under the principle of double effect: as the Catechism writes, borrowing from Aquinas, “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.” (CCC 2263)

Similiarly, if a gunman comes to your house with the intent to kill your children, you may apply necessary (perhaps lethal) force to prevent that, as well. Similarly, if you encounter a gunman on the street who intends to mug and kill a hobo, you have a right and duty to defend the hobo, too. If you are at a friend’s house and that friend tries to shoot his own children, you have the right and duty to apply necessary force–up to and including lethal force–to act in the child’s self-defense. If you are a spy operating behind enemy lines and you see a duly appointed local law enforcement officer preparing to execute a Jewish baby, you have the right and duty to act in the child’s self-defense–and, because local law is against you, this will very possibly (and regrettably) mean no less than lethal force. If you are a citizen of a nation in which you see a duly appointed local law enforcement officer preparing to execute a Jewish baby, you still have the right and duty to act in the child’s self-defense, just as the spy would. If you are a citizen of a nation where you see a private citizen legally preparing to carry out the execution of a Jewish baby, you have the right and duty to act in the child’s self-defense. If you are a citizen of a nation where you see a private citizen legally preparing to carry out the mass execution of Jew babies, you have the right and duty to act in the children’s self-defense. And, finally, if you are a citizen of a nation where you see a private citizen legally preparing to carry out the mass execution of unborn babies, Jewish or otherwise, you have the right and duty to act in the children’s self-defense.

This does not mean that Mr. Roeder’s assassination was legitimate. While defense of the innocent is the right and duty of all Catholics, the Church holds that five conditions must be met before violence or lethal force may be permitted in defending against local civil law:

Those conditions were clearly not all met in this case, and so Mr. Roeder’s decision to take the life of Mr. Tiller was illegitimate and immoral. However, I take issue with the claim that Mr. Roeder was unequivocally in the wrong. It seems to me that he was not. It appears to me that the teachings of the Church (as well as sound common sense) clearly illustrate that, in slightly different circumstances, in slightly different times, conducted in the right mindset, Mr. Roeder’s actions could have been condoned. Dr. Tiller of course had the inalienable right to life, and our Church is not about “an eye for an eye,” but the Holy Church does show us how Mr. Tiller’s life could nonetheless have justifiably been taken under the related principles of double effect, the right to self-defense, and the right to armed resistance. Armed resistance in such cases is not vigilantism; it is a defense of natural human law against those in power who assail it. It is a restoration of the fundamental rights upon which all valid civil law, all legitimate civil authority, is founded.

I do not condone Mr. Roeder’s actions, nor am I advocating further acts of violence against abortionists. Such acts clearly fall short of the high standards the Church sets for such acts of armed resistance, and will undoubtedly cause great setbacks for the anti-abortion movement with few repercussions for the pro-abortion-rightsers. I do, however, object to those who condemn Mr. Roeder with a too-broad brush, or who equate his unjustified killing with the brutal murders which provoked it.

I am, as ever, open to fraternal correction by my brothers and sisters here at CAF. Because this is a fairly radical position by mainstream American standards, and I am not comfortable with holding radical positions, I would be grateful to anyone who is able to show me that I have gone wrong somewhere in my chain of reasoning or in my understanding of Church teachings. (I would appreciate it, however, if responses consisted of more than, “You’re an example of everything that’s wrong with the anti-abortion movement!” or “I am shocked and horrified that anyone who professes to be Catholic could say such a thing!” I am open to convincing, but such statements are unhelpful.)
You may not be actively condoning Roeder’s actions, but you certainly are trying very hard to find a way around it. Your “chain of reasoning” isn’t a chain; it’s more of an attempt to rationalize an illegal act.

If you’re not sorry that Tiller was murdered, then just say so - it’s okay. But don’t try to philosophize about something that is a clear-cut case of murder.

Abortion is legal. And until it is illegal, all violent acts to stop abortion are also illegal. This should be clear in everyone’s mind.
 
Neither the moral or legal doctrine of self-defense and defense of others applies here. If you are convinced that your next door neighbor is planning to kill someone on Monday, you cannot just go next door and kill him on Sunday. That is not defense of others in either the legal or moral sense of the term.
You left out the fact that you know for a fact that your neighbor is a serial killer.
 
Whether or not we consider Dr. Tiller a criminal deserving of capital punishment, he deserved like anyone a fair trial.

Shooting him was indefensible, not justice, “vigilante” or any other kind.
:confused:

But how do you know it was not justice or indefensible? After all, his alleged shooter deserves a fair trial too, doesn’t he?
 
Killing Tiller was wrong and murder.
When I heard I said a prayer for his soul.
But I have 60,000 reasons to be glad he
is gone.
 
I saw his ex-wife interviewed this AM. She referred to the day following Friday as the Sabbath, and her ex-husband as suffering periods of mental illness.
So, there’s some info.
 
I

PS And just some good common sense advice on abortion and language: While we may objectively understand abortion as murder, it seems some people here also don’t seem to understand that it’s not viewed that way by most pro-choicers. The majority of people are not murderers, and the majority of pro-choicers view abortion not as murder or even killing, but as an extension that is terminated before it becomes human. So if you wanna convince choicers to switch views, don’t act like a fool and assume they are pro-murder or view it as such. You are just making yourself sound like an idiot, and you probably are one if you hold to that.
:newidea: Here’s a fact to ponder, friend…no “pro-choicer” (translation-one who “chooses death rather than life for unborn babies) denies that the “fetus” (latin word meaning: “little one”) is a** living human** being-that would be denying science; good common sense; and right judgment***-no matter*** your” views."
Denying that scientific fact is clearly what should be considered "idiotic" to use your word.
I’m not of the opinion that “language” alters the Truth anyway, nor do I feel that this incident will “hurt” the “movement”. God will exact His Supreme Justice. We just need to pray that we are living in a state of grace, and pray to remain there.
 
Neither the moral or legal doctrine of self-defense and defense of others applies here. If you are convinced that your next door neighbor is planning to kill someone on Monday, you cannot just go next door and kill him on Sunday. That is not defense of others in either the legal or moral sense of the term.
You left out the fact that you know for a fact that your neighbor is a serial killer.
That does not change the analysis. An individual can’t use defense of others to justify killing as retribution for past acts, or to prevent possible future acts. It only applies to immediate acts, and then only when no lesser level of force is reasonably available.
 
You may not be actively condoning Roeder’s actions, but you certainly are trying very hard to find a way around it. Your “chain of reasoning” isn’t a chain; it’s more of an attempt to** rationalize an illegal act.
**
If you’re not sorry that Tiller was murdered, then just say so - it’s okay. But don’t try to philosophize about something that is a **clear-cut case of murder. **

Abortion is legal. And until it is illegal,** all violent acts** to stop abortion are also illegal. This should be clear in everyone’s mind.
To be even*** clearer***…then using your reasoning,Tiller and his killer are “kindred” rationalists, they believe it is right to** take a life,in exchange for others.** Clear?:hmmm:
 
I find this very interesting… some people here complaining about the government going to label them as terrorists because of the actions of a few lone nuts… well, where were some of you when these same things happened to Muslims who were targeted and mistrusted because of terrorist acts committed by overseas groups like Al-Qaeda? I also warned people about Nazi-style government actions like Homeland Security and the PATRIOT act. Well, my friends, some people today are now getting a taste of their own bitter medicine, and don’t expect one ounce of sympathy from those like me who point out these double edge swords all the time.

PS And just some good common sense advice on abortion and language: While we may objectively understand abortion as murder, it seems some people here also don’t seem to understand that it’s not viewed that way by most pro-choicers. The majority of people are not murderers, and the majority of pro-choicers view abortion not as murder or even killing, but as an extension that is terminated before it becomes human. So if you wanna convince choicers to switch views, don’t act like a fool and assume they are pro-murder or view it as such. You are just making yourself sound like an idiot, and you probably are one if you hold to that.
Let’s put the Pro-Life position in the perspective of world opinion, shall we?

Rather than the pro-life movement being a radical and violent deviation from religous doctrine and teaching (as Islamic terrorism relates to the Muslim position as a whole throughout the world), the pro-life position is upheld by every major world religion except Judiasm.

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1442381/posts

Therefore, the majority of pro-choice people are atheist or agnostic, and if not, either part of a Jewish, very liberal Protestant, or pagan (though there are big exceptions here, too) religious system.

The vast majority of conservative religious people in all areas of the world and all major world religions are strongly pro-life. It is the default position, not the aberrant position.

What happened in the case of George Tiller is a violent man who happened to hold pro-life beliefs, but who had no formal involvement with either a religous (as far as we know) or pro-life group decided to commit murder.

Partially blaming the pro-life movement, rather than the invididual who killed Dr. Tiller, is like blaming television for the assisination of Oswald. Jack Ruby would never have been so upset over the Kennedy assinination (barring conspiracy theories, of course) had so many mourners not been on the news day after day.

Islamic terrorists, on the other hand, belong to an aberrant socio-political movement associated with an aberrant ( I and many others will argue) sect of the Muslim religion that promotes violence.

No religion, or pro-life movement within a religion, promotes the illegal assisination of sinful people (with the exception of Islamic terrorists).

There is no comparsion. It isn’t even close.
 
The Lutheran Ecclesial Community does not know the truth. They walk in darkness.
Jay, As a Former MISSOURI SYNOD LUTHERAN The Lutheran church, especially the ELCA Evangelical “Liberal” Lutheran Church in America branch which has grown to be extremely liberal is the one that has approved of abortions on an individual understanding of the parties involved , and on the other hand the more Conservative and Scriptural based and adhearing Missouri Synod is the one that has taken a stance against Abortions as a group and on an individual parish basis . I do not know what WELLS or the other Lutheran groups feel on this extremely important social issue. Any one who follows Scripture and Jesus does NOT walk in darkness despite being protestant or catholic , it is Man in his sinful state that decides to place catagories and labels on himself and others to suite his needs
 
"… Are there no prison, no workhouses? … I help to support the establishments I have mentioned-they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.’ " Ebenezer Scrooge “A Christmas Carol”

You are correct, starvation in the U.S. is uncommon, hunger is not (or, as the Bush administration called it “food insecurity”) . The existing programs help, but do not cure the problem - they prevent starvation, but not hunger. It is not known how many children will be permanently damaged by poor nutrition.

frac.org/html/hunger_in_the_us/hunger_index.html

However, at least 18,000 Americans die every year because they have no access to medical care. A couple years ago a child in Baltimore died because he had an infected tooth. His mother didn’t have the $80 to pay a dentist to treat him. The infiection spread to his brain and he died (after running up a $250,000 bill at the hospital that admitted him when the problem became medical).

The “pro-life” govenor (who also can be very pious about what a fine Christian he is) in my state just made massive cuts to the medical programs so more children and adults can go without necessary medical care. And all because conservatives think tax cuts for the wealthy are more important than programs that help people. Like so many prolifers the governor loses all interest in a child’s well being once it’s born. Then they’re on their own and if they made the mistake of being born into a poor family, it’s just their tough luck.
You don’t have to wait for the government to help. Pick up the phone, call your doctor, your dentist whatever and ask if there is some family or person that needs assistance because you would like to help. Then send the check to the doctor, to the dentist, to the pharmacy, to whatever and they can call the person in for the service or the drugs needed.

I’m pro life, Republican, Catholic, with a brain in my head to figure out how to help. Stop wringing your hands about the government and do something if you really want to.
 
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