Abortion Doctor Geroge Tiller Murdered this morning

[joe_clark]

This incident has caused a firestorm of emotions and we must not cloud the issue by singling out those who condone the killing of a killer or not.
We’re all simply** venting**,** trying to sort it all out****; bouncing it off of each other**; searching for meaning in all of this…this is what a healthy discussion/debate is all about. Maybe a fruitful dialogue will ensue after the smoke clears.
For now, we can all have our say, can we not? I mean, I think we can all agree on this much-
regardless of what we think, God will have the final say.
“For we have here, no lasting city…”

No one has a problem with talking, sorting it out, searching and where do we go from here. However, sometimes when one thinks something it may not be approppriate to express it publically. This is this situation we have here. We can vent anything we want BUT: Any thought expressed in the public domain, in the vain of : the Doctor deserved to be murdered, the doctor had it coming - so what ect., will not be taken well by anyone except a small angry vocal group soo full of resentment, hate and anger that they will take what they can get, like a murder of a doctor that performed abortions.

This is the equivalent of hitting yourself in the head with a hammer, to find out if it hurts when you do so. Knowing what we know now, why feed into your own meltdown?

This is not the way to handle this.

 

[ClementRome]

Exactly. Vigilante justice and execution without trial are contrary to Church teaching. It doesn’t matter that the doctor was involved in mass murder via abortion. The acts of this shooter will hurt the pro-life cause.

I agree, the media and the pro-abortionists are gonna have a field day with this one. Pro-abortionists are gonna fight tooth and nail to try to label all of the pro-life movements as terrorism.

But at least less late-term babies with be killed. So while this terrible act is horrible for some, the safety of the late-term unborn will be better for them

 

[adamsapple]

I agree, the media and the pro-abortionists are gonna have a field day with this one.

At least less late-term babies with be killed. So while this terrible act is horrible for some, the safety of the late-term unborn will be greater.

The clinic reopens this week. How does that save late-term babies???

 

[jimpres]

The clinic reopens this week. How does that save late-term babies???

And there are two or more Dr who are still practicing the same techniques.

 

[DeoSalvatoreMeo]

Flower,

I do believe he did the abortions for the mother’s health. But at 8 months, seems someone waited to long. The procedure at that late in the pregnancy is ugly.

The priests for life have descriptions etc. of the procedure…

priestsforlife.org/

Tiller was infamous for advertising to do elective late term abortions for any reason for $5,000. When there was not a legal reason to do so, he used the diagnosis of “temporary depression of the mother” to kill perfectly good babies. He aborted a perfectly healthy late term baby for a woman who wanted to go to a rock concert and the pregnancy was making that inconvenient and for another woman, late term, who wanted to compete in a rodeo. This man was, as Bill Donohue put it, a “serial killer”. The only difference is that Dahmer and Bundy were breaking the law.

“What happens is a new reproductive social order emerges, or to put it another way, a new reproductive paradigm emerges. And this paradigm has three concepts. And the first concept is that for every woman, each pregnancy is an invited guest into her body and a welcome addition to her family. The second concept is that only the pregnant woman should decide when she’s going to be a mother or a parent. And the third concept is that the woman is the patient; the fetus is the problem.” - From a video Tiller made around 2001

That’s from this site: dr-tiller.com/their-own-words.htm

 

[DeoSalvatoreMeo]

And there are two or more Dr who are still practicing the same techniques.

Someone here posted this website yesterday and I’ve found it to be a wealth of information. Tiller had 3 partners in abortion that, I assume, will step in where he left off:

“Meet Tiller’s Other Abortionists”

dr-tiller.com/abortionists.htm

 

[ClementRome]

The clinic reopens this week. How does that save late-term babies???

its gonna re-open? Are you sure of that?

Tiller was known to break the law and go around the corner in order to do many late-term abortions on perfectly healthy women and babies. Thats why he was in allot of legal trouble beforehand. Tiller ignored the strict requirements for a woman to qualify for a late-term abortion.

 

[rlg94086]

Except…

No one here, not one person is suggesting that we overthrow the law and allow free hunting on abortionist or other evil people. This is a strawman I am sure we will see this used a lot after this incident. The post may have been deleted, but I have not seen one person advocating violence. It is a shame that those that want to exaggerate (or lie) and accuse prolife people of advocating violence start here.

It is not advocating violence, a slippery slope or any other such rhetoric that some here do not mourn this death. I for one can not manufacture an artificial sorrow. I didn’t know it was a requirement of the law.

Not mourning Dr. Tiller’s death is one thing (see my earlier post regarding sorrow) ,but there are a lot of posts that basically say: ‘he deserved it’ or ‘it is justified as self-defense.’ These posters almost always include the additional disclaimer - ‘not that I condone the action’ of his murder/assassination.

The problem here is that one does indirectly condone the action whenever one justifies the action. It is pretty simple. If a “misguided fanatic” reads the justifications for Roeder’s actions on fora such as these, he may very well go through with the murder/assassination of another abortion doctor. Why not? I mean, knowing that the Catechism would back up their actions as justifiable defense (as some have claimed), he would certainly be in the right, no?

There is nothing ‘straw man’ about this situation. There is no rational justification from Church teaching for the killing of Dr. Tiller. If one claims there is, they are promoting violence in the same manner that John Brown did pre-Civil War. I want abortion to end, but I don’t believe that armed resistance is a good idea.

 

[adamsapple]

its gonna re-open? Are you sure of that?

Tiller was known to break the law and go around the corner in order to do many late-term abortions on perfectly healthy women and babies. Thats why he was in allot of legal trouble beforehand. Tiller ignored the strict requirements for a woman to qualify for a late-term abortion.

George Tiller’s Clinic To Reopen, ‘Resume Normal Operations’
By The Huffington Post News Team, Huffington Post

After a week of closure to mourn the death of murdered physician Dr. George Tiller, the clinic he founded, Women’s Health Care Services, will reopen on Monday and “resume normal operations.” This is according to Dr. Leroy Carhart, who, along with two other physicians, served on the clinic’s rotating staff. McClatchy has the news:

“What people need to know is… the women’s services that we provided for 30 years are not going to change,” Carhart said. “The same abortion services will remain available in Wichita.”

alternet.org/rss/4/58329

 

[RobbyS]

its gonna re-open? Are you sure of that?

Tiller was known to break the law and go around the corner in order to do many late-term abortions on perfectly healthy women and babies. Thats why he was in allot of legal trouble beforehand. Tiller ignored the strict requirements for a woman to qualify for a late-term abortion.

The irony of Tiller’s death was that, yes, he was a scoflaw. If he had stayed well within the limits of the law, he would have been untouchable. But like most men of this sort, he played the angles. I am reminded of Jesse James. A killer who is killed while hanging a picture in his own home.

 

[ClementRome]

George Tiller’s Clinic To Reopen, ‘Resume Normal Operations’
By The Huffington Post News Team, Huffington Post

After a week of closure to mourn the death of murdered physician Dr. George Tiller, the clinic he founded, Women’s Health Care Services, will reopen on Monday and “resume normal operations.” This is according to Dr. Leroy Carhart, who, along with two other physicians, served on the clinic’s rotating staff. McClatchy has the news:

“What people need to know is… the women’s services that we provided for 30 years are not going to change,” Carhart said. “The same abortion services will remain available in Wichita.”

alternet.org/rss/4/58329

this is saddening. I was hoping this awful clinic woulda shut down because of this. Do u think these other doctors will cut the corners like Tiller did?

 

[TMC]

The statement is that the official position of all major world religions (Catholicism, Hinduism, Islam, Buddism) with the exception of Judiasm is to oppose abortion. That is an accurate statement.

The fact that 78% of people purport believing in a Supreme Being perhaps clarifies the statement that by adding “other non-relgious” to the atheists, agnostics, liberal Protestants and pagans who do not oppose abortion. Those “other non-religous” who happen to believe in God are not followers or a religious tradition.

If you don’t believe that opposition to abortion is “clearly identifed” with major world religions, then back up that statement with facts on the percentage of religious followers within the whole group who do not oppose abortion. Because some sect here or there condones abortion isn’t evidence.

In fact, the majority of Protestants either condemn abortions or concede it is acceptable in very limited cases. So, Christianity as a whole is associated wtih being in opposition to abortion. As are the other world religions, except Judiasm.

78% of Americans profess membership is an established Christian sect. Nearly half of Americans are pro-choice. So at least half of pro-choice Americans are members of an established Christian sect. The numbers on Americans and religion are available here:

religions.pewforum.org/reports

As far as what other religions teach, I also found some information on that topic at Pew Forum. They claim that among major Christian sects, only the Catholic Church teaches that abortion is always wrong. Episcopalians, Lutherans-MO Synod, Southern Baptists, the National Council of Evangelicals and Mormons all allow abortion under limited circumstances, usually health of the mother, rape and incest. American Baptists, Evangelical Lutherans, Methodists, and UCC allow abortion, but generally frown on its use for mere convenience or ordinary birth control.

Among other religions, Pew says that Hindus are against abortion, but that Buddism has no official position on the issue. It also says that some Muslim scholars teach all abortion is wrong, and that some allow it up to the fourth month.

pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=351

So, again, I agree with you that the pro-life position is not radical and that it is supported world-over by many religions. But I disagree that it is the position of all major religions, or that most pro-life people are agnostic or atheists.

 

[Disciple96]

I wrote on another post and on my blog that murder is murder, no matter who the victim is. Murder is absolutely deplorable, horrible, wrong, evil, atrocious. No matter who the murderer is or why he chose to do it and no matter who he murders for whatever reason. Murder is murder, no matter what.

Just in the interest of accuracy, I don’t think you are right here. There are sects within Christianity, Buddism, Hinduism and Islam that allow for abortion within certain limits…

The difference in opinion does not stem from a difference in opinion over how to treat people, it comes from a difference in opinion over when people start being people. [Emphasis mine.]

True, on both counts. A growing number of people who consider themselves to be religious (adherents of various major world religions) accept abortion as justifiable even if they often disagree on precise details. That was one more thing I appreciate about Catholicism: the consistent and age-old teachings on life and morality. Truth is truth, no if’s, and’s or but’s.

And yes, the main point about the “debate” over abortion is precisely the “debate” about when life begins. Or rather, when people start being people.

Personally, I’d like to see all people start acting like people and also start acting like other people are people and have the rights and freedoms of people, no matter what country those people are from or what country they’re now in, no matter what political party people belong to, no matter what religion people have or do not have…

And most of all
I’d like for people to treat children like people
because a person’s a person
no matter how small.

(Dr. Suess objected to this use of his writing, but it’s pretty much embedded in our collective psyche now. The first thing I thought of when I heard that line in the movie, after reading the book many many years ago, was a child in the womb. He wrote truer than he knew. God bless him!)

 

[KingTheoden]

I’m sorry, but I’m not very sympathetic to this ‘doctor’ and the fact that he was killed.

Obama said as a response to the killing, “However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence.”

Really? Well, what the heck is a partial birth abortion if not a heinous act of violence?

What we cannot do is fashion ourselves as extra-judicial law enforcers. We must submit to civil authority that is given to us, which unfortunately means we have to work within a pretty rotten system.

Until that system completely crumbles and is replaced, we CANNOT go around enforcing justice as we determine it. So, this killing is wrong. It should be noted that the suspect apparently had mental problems; we must investigate who his care givers were, what medicines he was on, etc. We don’t know who might have put him up to this (I serious doubt, that if someone in fact did, if was a pro-lifer).

Yes, we can pray for the soul of this slain physician who chose to use his talents evily. We can also pray for the soul of Judas the Iscariot (something I have considered incorporating into my prayers).

I have only so much time to give to prayers and I will give first class treatment to praying for the aborted people, murdered by Tiller and others, for pregnent women confused, for the conversion of pro-abortion people, and for blessings upon young women who have courageously gone through child birth and might have to struggle as single moms.

Those people get my prayers before Judas. And before the late Dr. Tiller.

 

[Disciple96]

I do believe that as Catholics we are called to pray for the conversion of all sinners, to pray for mercy for all those in need of mercy. That would include people who do things that are horrible. It would include the murderer as well as his victim. That would be following the teachings of the Church. We don’t have to like them and we are not asked to like the people or their actions. We are, however, called to love and to pray for the conversion of sinners.

 

[hosemonkey]

this is saddening. I was hoping this awful clinic woulda shut down because of this. Do u think these other doctors will cut the corners like Tiller did?

These clinics will never close and these cockroaches will never disappear as long as there is a demand for their disgusting services. Too many people (yes, lots of Catholics too) will make the choice to kill their child, rather than making a choice for life. Abortionists are like drug dealers, if there was not a demand for what they provide, they would disappear tomorrow. They are merely pimps, serving the needs and wants of frail humanity. Like cockroaches, when you eliminate one, ten more will appear. Did I say Tiller was a cockroach? Nah! Of course, in all fairness, God made cockroaches too.

 

[pismopal]

This medical doctor has had decades to benefit from the prayers of those who wanted him to stop killing the unborn. He did not stop because of prayers, he stopped because he himself was killed by a man, who like the doctor, took the law into his own hands.
There is a substantial difference in the 2 cases…the doctor killed about 60,000 innocent children and his killer only one…and not for money.
I did not kill the abortion doctor…I did not will his death…nor council it. Neither am I mourning or sobbing in my pillow over it. I always want serial killers to be stopped and I hope they give up peacefully and nobody else is hurt but sometimes they don’t give up peacefully…we all watch tv news.

 

[KingTheoden]

I do believe that as Catholics we are called to pray for the conversion of all sinners, to pray for mercy for all those in need of mercy. That would include people who do things that are horrible. It would include the murderer as well as his victim. That would be following the teachings of the Church. We don’t have to like them and we are not asked to like the people or their actions. We are, however, called to love and to pray for the conversion of sinners.

That’s true. And I think it is fair to assume that most of us do have some ‘catch all’ prayer or portion of a prayer in which we pray for all those in sin and even those who curse us (essentially an intention I pray for each morning and night).

My position however is that certain people in history who die are more or less deserving of our prayers. I just found out today that Bart Brewer had a stroke and died a few years ago. He did the Church terrible harm and was at best very misguided in zeal. However, I am going to keep him in mind because I believe he is more deserving of God’s mercy and forgiveness than proud partial birth abortionists who, frankly, die by the sword with which they lived.

We are all sinners and we should never lose sight of that. We should likewise not succumb to sentimental emotion; we must recognize horrible actions. Nero, Stalin, Hitler, the founders of the American abortion movement, etc. These people did amazingly wicked things and I think, for good reason, we do not particularly mourn their passing.

Again, none of this should be taken to justify vigilante justice, which is always wrong. Today’s reading is quite relevant in fact, that we must bear onto Caesar what is his. We have a functioning government and legal system and therefore are, by Christ’s command, bound to work within it.

May Our Lady pray for ALL of us sinners and may she intercede to stop this terrible regime of abortion and its first cousin artificial birth control.

 

[Robert_Bay]

GENERAL REMINDER

CAF rules absolutely prohibit posts that advocate or condone violence. Since the forums are quite active now, it is possible that moderators might miss such posts. If you see them, here or elsewhere, report them at once and a moderator will take action.

God bless,

 

[Disciple96]

My position however is that certain people in history who die are more or less deserving of our prayers… I am going to keep him in mind because I believe he is more deserving of God’s mercy and forgiveness than proud partial birth abortionists who, frankly, die by the sword with which they lived.

We are all sinners and we should never lose sight of that. We should likewise not succumb to sentimental emotion; we must recognize horrible actions.

I certainly am not succumbing to sentimental emotion, I’m trying to obey the teachings of the Church, all of them. I believe that one of them is also that I am not the arbiter of who is and is not deserving of God’s mercy and forgiveness any more than I am the arbiter of who lives and dies.

I don’t condone violence and I don’t practice it. And I don’t tell God who I think He should forgive either. I pray that His will be done.

But I think we are in agreement that abortion is horrible and is murder and is a sin against God and is in direct violation of the teachings of Christ’s Church. I join you in prayer that Our Lady will intercede for all of us sinners.
*
“O, my Jesus, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Your mercy.*”