Abortion Doctor Geroge Tiller Murdered this morning

[adamsapple]

A cold blooded murder in a church is not God’s hand. It was an act of an unstable man. What you are saying is what pro-life people are being accused of on leftie blogs. Don’t compare evil acts to the bible.

Absolutely correct. God does not endorse terrorism - and neither should we.

 

[tm30]

Except…

No one here, not one person is suggesting that we overthrow the law and allow free hunting on abortionist or other evil people. This is a strawman I am sure we will see this used a lot after this incident. The post may have been deleted, but I have not seen one person advocating violence. It is a shame that those that want to exaggerate (or lie) and accuse prolife people of advocating violence start here.

It is not advocating violence, a slippery slope or any other such rhetoric that some here do not mourn this death. I for one can not manufacture an artificial sorrow. I didn’t know it was a requirement of the law.

You seem to not understand that the laws of unintended consequences affect the good and the bad.

 

[tm30]

Outta curiosity, and this is just a hypothetical question; if the act of George Tillers murder was an act of divine retribution(as has happened MANY times in the OT and the NT, Herod being struck down in Acts comes to mind), how would the faithful respond to it? If George Tillers murder was an act of divine retribution then we could be condemning God.

We have to remember that times when extremely excessive sin happens, God can sometimes intervene, like in Sodom and Gomorrah. Like just recently, the plane of a large abortion provider crashed right in front of an abortion memorial. To close off our mind to the possibility would be ignorance in my opinion.

Evil invites evil. God chose not to intervene. We can’t pin this on God except to say that He did what He does in almost all circumstances - leave us to the consequences of our own free wil…

The plane crashing in front of an abortion memorial could also be the work of Satan mocking the surviving relatives. It’s not necessarily proof of divine retribution but a very sick, demonic sense of humor.

 

[mmm1]

Outta curiosity, and this is just a hypothetical question; if the act of George Tillers murder was an act of divine retribution(as has happened MANY times in the OT and the NT, Herod being struck down in Acts comes to mind), how would the faithful respond to it? If George Tillers murder was an act of divine retribution then we could be condemning God.

We have to remember that times when extremely excessive sin happens, God can sometimes intervene, like in Sodom and Gomorrah. Like just recently, the plane of a large abortion provider crashed right in front of an abortion memorial. To close off our mind to the possibility would be ignorance in my opinion.

I agree with Fitz. God does not intervene through a mentally ill, angry man who also threatens innocent men in the church. He threatened 2 other men with his weapon who tried to stop him…

 

[ktingle]

I feel very sorry for Jesus,possibly losing one of his flock. I do
pray for all involved even Tiller.Abortion to me is the most horrible act that man has ever commited.All involved i am sure,NEVER took baptism into account.I truly believe 1/2 of abortions would be eliminated if the mother understood the enormity of this act.I am also sure that if all of us ask forgiveness for the Mother, Father, and Doctor,give a child a name and ask Jesus to baptise him or her HE will.Jesus and Blessed Mother will take them HOME.

 

[Gabriella_San_S]

Outta curiosity, and this is just a hypothetical question; if the act of George Tillers murder was an act of divine retribution(as has happened MANY times in the OT and the NT, Herod being struck down in Acts comes to mind), how would the faithful respond to it? If George Tillers murder was an act of divine retribution then we could be condemning God.

We have to remember that times when extremely excessive sin happens, God can sometimes intervene, like in Sodom and Gomorrah. Like just recently, the plane of a large abortion provider crashed right in front of an abortion memorial. To close off our mind to the possibility would be ignorance in my opinion.

You are asking a very fair question, and raising an excellent point.
You,** wowbagger**, myself and others on this thread are merely exploring the complexities of this unusual incident, which is fraught with moral implications on every side. Why shouldn’t we" break it down" in light of biblical references; historical comparisons; the magisterial teaching and canonical law of the Church; philosophical and psychological and theological reasoning?
It should be stated once again, that not all of us contend that this is a clear-cut case. To bring up the idea of Divine retribution is worth pondering.

 

[Gabriella_San_S]

Absolutely correct. God does not endorse terrorism - and neither should we.

Our lady of Fatima said to a group of little peasant children in 1917 in Portugal, that
"War is a punishment for sin…if men** do not cease** offending God, a** worse** and more terrible war will follow…" (WWI was going on at the time)
Not one of us believes that God endorses violence of any kind. What we do believe as Catholics, however, is that God has both an*** ordaining will*** and a permitting will and that there have been solid proofs throughout salvation history of God’s wrath coming to the Earth to punish sin, just as we believe in the “purifying fires” of purgatory after death.
Remember, dear brothers and sisters in Christ, that God desires that “…none of these be lost…” but there is an** infinite incompatibility** between God and sin!
We can all be sure that we will see His chatisement in this country for the
** great sin of abortion**

 

[elgar]

A horrible, senseless act.

He’s now being portayed in the media as a selfless martyr who bravely risked his life to provide healthcare for women.

Prayers for his family, and prayers for his soul.

Look what some are saying in the Mainline churches:

The most outrageous support for Tiller came from the Very Rev. Katherine Ragsdale, president of Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge Mass. Who said, “This is about the loss of a man who was a saint and a martyr. He was a prayerful man who put his life at risk to protect others and died for it. People are in shock, outrage and mourning.”

Ms. Ragsdale said she once visited Dr. Tiller’s clinic in Wichita to defend it from anti-abortion protests. She recently called abortion “a blessing.”

She described Dr. George Tiller, a true hero for women across the country. "Since the 1970s, Dr. Tiller has provided critical abortion and reproductive health care at great personal risk. In doing so, he has saved the lives and futures of countless women and girls across the country. His murder is a tragedy for his family, friends, and colleagues. It is also a tragedy for the women who need his care and for the entire community of health care providers and advocates, and for all of us who believe in a woman’s right to dignity and self-determination. Please join us in honoring this great man who truly lived by his motto to “Trust Women.”

This is the church, BTW, that recently welcomed Fr. Oprah into with open arms. How sad.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

In U.S., there is the perception that, the prolife position and or movement is synonymous with the conservative Republican party along with their conservative political positions, and they are both seen as sisters holding hands. (just like the stock market, it is what people believe, not what is true) I have heard The Republican Party is also referred to as the party of embryos and Homo’s and this is not good for Marriage between a man and a women.

For the Republican Party and their candidates, IT GETS VOTES, especially in a conservative district. Ever wonder about the timing of: 1. same sex marriage and gay rights legislation just seem to be on the ballot, always in red states, out of nowhere in that district, just around election time? The Republican candidates use this legislation to bring the faithful to the voting polls and the candidates recieve the residual affects, they get elected.

In public, The Catholic Church is clearly holding hands with the Republican Party. This is OK until the Republican Party goes astray, because the church goes with it. I always believed it is not good for any church to cozy up to ANY political party. Political winds blow in different directions at different times, and it is not consistent or compatable with the church.

I told the story before of a friend who was trying to get elected in PA as a state rep. He is married with beautiful children, pro-life, a good catholic in his church and community, but…(cue scary music) a democrat. Imagine that? When we exited the church that Sunday before the election, whereupon the magical voting guides were found on everyones windshield. The names in bold black were the candidates endorsed by the church. (indirectly) HOWEVER, all the republican candidates names were in Bold and the democratic candidates were all in light print. Here is the sad thing, the Republican challenger was non-committal on life? SOO, one size fits all? Sometimes I feel that people are programmed and fall into routines and this is not good.

The church should speak and engage the political parties but not get too close with them. Politics is like a washing machine that dirties the clothes instead of cleaning them.

You forgot about gun rights… the other Red state single issue vote troll along with abortion and gay marriage.

I wish people would think about what happens when the Church turns to politics.

The individual person says, “This is deeply important to me. I care about abortion. I want abortion to be severely restricted legally.” The political world says in return, “You want to vote pro-life? Well have I got a deal for you. Look at this bill of goods. Vote for candidate x, he’s pro-life, and we’ll just forget to mention that he supports tax breaks for corporation profits and cuts in disability Medicaid” And the pro-life voter is led and manipulated into supporting policies that are bad for the average American.

If the Church cannot withdraw from politics, it should at least have the intergrity to be a political force for good to reckon with in everything , and not be led like a sheep along with the Republican agenda.

 

[ktingle]

Outta curiosity, and this is just a hypothetical question; if the act of George Tillers murder was an act of divine retribution(as has happened MANY times in the OT and the NT, Herod being struck down in Acts comes to mind), how would the faithful respond to it? If George Tillers murder was an act of divine retribution then we could be condemning God.

We have to remember that times when extremely excessive sin happens, God can sometimes intervene, like in Sodom and Gomorrah. Like just recently, the plane of a large abortion provider crashed right in front of an abortion memorial. To close off our mind to the possibility would be ignorance in my opinion.

Hello Clement,I understand what you are saying,I agree that the plane going down in front of a memorial surley could be called divine intervention. I am just as sure that a human shooting another human surley would not be. But again i really as a human unberstand your question. I’m just sure we are wrong.

 

[KingTheoden]

You are asking a very fair question, and raising an excellent point.
You,** wowbagger**, myself and others on this thread are merely exploring the complexities of this unusual incident, which is fraught with moral implications on every side. Why shouldn’t we" break it down" in light of biblical references; historical comparisons; the magisterial teaching and canonical law of the Church; philosophical and psychological and theological reasoning?
It should be stated once again, that not all of us contend that this is a clear-cut case. To bring up the idea of Divine retribution is worth pondering.

Absolutely wonderful post.

In colleges, professors are free to say that 9-11 was justifed. The hard left ALWAYS defends such comments as intellectual inquiry.

Well…

Then we should be just as free to academically wonder if some of the misfortunes befalling abortionists are in truth God’s hand. Admittedly, this is a tricky conversation to have because it can quickly spiral into supporting vigilantes, which no Catholic does.

I agree that evil rips itself apart; God does not need to intervene. Indeed, He certainly can direct events against evil.

That people who call themselves Christian, disciples of Jesus Christ - Christ who said that anyone who harms the little ones are especially awaiting punishment - is sacrilege and heresy of the worst order. For Katherine Ragsdale to call Tiller a saint… all I can say is may God have mercy on those in the Mainline sects.

 

[wabrams]

You forgot about gun rights… the other Red state single issue vote troll along with abortion and gay marriage.

I wish people would think about what happens when the Church turns to politics.

The individual person says, “This is deeply important to me. I care about abortion. I want abortion to be severely restricted legally.” The political world says in return, “You want to vote pro-life? Well have I got a deal for you. Look at this bill of goods. Vote for candidate x, he’s pro-life, and we’ll just forget to mention that he supports tax breaks for corporation profits and cuts in disability Medicaid” And the pro-life voter is led and manipulated into supporting policies that are bad for the average American.

If the Church cannot withdraw from politics, it should at least have the intergrity to be a political force for good to reckon with in everything , and not be led like a sheep along with the Republican agenda.

First off, tax breaks on corporate profits allows corporations to grow and hire more people, since instead of paying uncle sam money they reinvest it in their own company. Second, Medicaid wouldn’t be so bad on the funding end if it wasn’t for government mismanagement on both sides of the aisle, so don’t pin it on one party.

 

[ClementRome]

You are asking a very fair question, and raising an excellent point.
You,** wowbagger**, myself and others on this thread are merely exploring the complexities of this unusual incident, which is fraught with moral implications on every side. Why shouldn’t we" break it down" in light of biblical references; historical comparisons; the magisterial teaching and canonical law of the Church; philosophical and psychological and theological reasoning?
It should be stated once again, that not all of us contend that this is a clear-cut case. To bring up the idea of Divine retribution is worth pondering.

thanks for the point. I was feeling a little attacked when I brought up the idea of retribution. I would like to note, that I myself feel really bad as far as what happened to Tiller, but I myself cannot deny that both in the OT and the NT God has acted in cases where there has been excessive sin and depravity.

So while my human nature is quick to condemn this murder, I still leave myself open to other possibilities that go beyond what we just see and feel. The book of Exodus shows us God’s wrath on the Egyptians, to the point of killing every first-born Egyptian child at one point.

The difference between me, and some of the others, is that I am open to the possibility that this may be something more than we just see. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that

 

[rlg94086]

Absolutely wonderful post.

In colleges, professors are free to say that 9-11 was justifed. The hard left ALWAYS defends such comments as intellectual inquiry.

Well…

Then we should be just as free to academically wonder if some of the misfortunes befalling abortionists are in truth God’s hand. Admittedly, this is a tricky conversation to have because it can quickly spiral into supporting vigilantes, which no Catholic does.

I agree that evil rips itself apart; God does not need to intervene. Indeed, He certainly can direct events against evil.

That people who call themselves Christian, disciples of Jesus Christ - Christ who said that anyone who harms the little ones are especially awaiting punishment - is sacrilege and heresy of the worst order. For Katherine Ragsdale to call Tiller a saint… all I can say is may God have mercy on those in the Mainline sects.

For me, I take the fact that the hard left defends 911 justification as fair-minded, “intellectual inquiry” to be a sign that we shouldn’t be doing it.

Of course Tiller isn’t a saint, but that doesn’t mean that his killing was justified. Those who think it is God’s work obviously don’t understand that it is more than likely Satan’s influence. He wants nothing more than to further marginalize the Pro-Life movement and Christians, in general. I wouldn’t be surprised if the evil one is smiling every time he reads a post discussing the justification for Tiller’s murder. The more that death can be celebrated the more he feels he is winning.

He won’t, of course…oh wait…here’s some “intellectual inquiry” for you. If Satan succeeds in fomenting hatred and bloodlust among the Pro-Life community, it will help hasten the “end times.” Is that what y’all are trying to accomplish?

 

[adamsapple]

thanks for the point. I was feeling a little attacked when I brought up the idea of retribution. I would like to note, that I myself feel really bad as far as what happened to Tiller, but I myself cannot deny that both in the OT and the NT God has acted in cases where there has been excessive sin and depravity.

So while my human nature is quick to condemn this murder, I still leave myself open to other possibilities that go beyond what we just see and feel. The book of Exodus shows us God’s wrath on the Egyptians, to the point of killing every first-born Egyptian child at one point.

If Tiller’s murder was divine retribution, then the hand of God led Roeder to pull the trigger. There are consequences to assigning the murder to God’s will or direct act.

Would God use a mentally deranged individual to carry out His deeds? Well, according to your suggestion that the murder was divine retribution, you are also suggesting that God uses people in heinous ways.

None of this makes sense. Tiller was murdered by a nut case. A fanatical nut case who no one in their right minds should condone or suggest that God had any hand in his actions.

 

[ktingle]

thanks for the point. I was feeling a little attacked when I brought up the idea of retribution. I would like to note, that I myself feel really bad as far as what happened to Tiller, but I myself cannot deny that both in the OT and the NT God has acted in cases where there has been excessive sin and depravity.

So while my human nature is quick to condemn this murder, I still leave myself open to other possibilities that go beyond what we just see and feel. The book of Exodus shows us God’s wrath on the Egyptians, to the point of killing every first-born Egyptian child at one point.

The difference between me, and some of the others, is that I am open to the possibility that this may be something more than we just see. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that

Clement, I sure hope you did not feel attacked by me. I pray for Tiller believe me i do.My sin is i am not sad that he is gone.My human nature was to condone at first.I quickly brought myself back to reality.I don’t think any of us should feel uneasy asking each other questions, This is why all of us are here.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

First off, tax breaks on corporate profits allows corporations to grow and hire more people, since instead of paying uncle sam money they reinvest it in their own company. Second, Medicaid wouldn’t be so bad on the funding end if it wasn’t for government mismanagement on both sides of the aisle, so don’t pin it on one party.

Excuse me, who invited you to start spouting off your political views on fiscal policy?

I voted for the Republican candidate last election. You don’t know what I think about politics or economic policy. Who cares what I think, or what you think. This thread is about abortion.

Why is it that some people have such a difficult time reading posts and coming away with the actual point?

I mean, why is it sooooo hard to grasp the salient message instead of going off on tangents about unrelated details.

If you are under the impression that there is a 1:1 correlation between the Republican party and the teachings of the Church, you are deluded and in need of education. The Repbulican party does not represent “all that is good and holy”, but the Church SHOULD stand up for all that is good and right and holy and in line with Biblical principles even if, GOD FORBID, it is not the Repubulican position.

If people cannot see that- then it’s time to just walk away and go home. I don’t worship the church of the Republican party, and neither should you.

 

[ClementRome]

If Tiller’s murder was divine retribution, then the hand of God led Roeder to pull the trigger. There are consequences to assigning the murder to God’s will or direct act.

Would God use a mentally deranged individual to carry out His deeds? Well, according to your suggestion that the murder was divine retribution, you are also suggesting that God uses people in heinous ways.

None of this makes sense. Tiller was murdered by a nut case. A fanatical nut case who no one in their right minds should condone or suggest that God had any hand in his actions.

I never said it was divine retribution straight out. I simply stated that I’m open to the possibility that it may be. God used the idolatrous barbaric pagans, who sacrificed their own children, to chastise Israel for their ungratefulness and disobedience to Him. The Pagans, who God loathed, still were used as a tool to chastise Israel.

So if this is just a human or satanic act and nothing else, then I condemn it as my humanity tells me. However if it is something more then I cannot condemn it for the sake that I might be condemning God’s own retribution as a punishment for our sins.

 

[Gabriella_San_S]

**For me, I take the fact that the hard left defends 911 justification as fair-minded, “intellectual inquiry” to be a sign that we shouldn’t be doing it.
** Then your intellect need not be apllied here, maybe? Let the rest of us proceed…

Of course Tiller isn’t a saint, but that doesn’t mean that his killing was justified.
Nobody said it was.

** Those who think it is God’s work obviously don’t understand that it is more than likely Satan’s influence. He wants nothing more than to further marginalize. **
No one said it was “God’s” work. Satan perhaps may try to marginalize us through our distortions, though, so please be careful of this.
**
…oh wait…here’s some “intellectual inquiry” for you. If Satan succeeds in fomenting hatred and bloodlust among the Pro-Life community, it will help hasten the “end times.” Is that what y’all are trying to accomplish?**

Maybe a closer examination of your uncharitable assertions about others will help lessen Satan’s success in fomenting hatred… let’s pray together, instead, shall we?
" Maranatha!, Come Lord Jesus!" God Bless.

 

[adamsapple]

I never said it was divine retribution straight out. I simply stated that I’m open to the possibility that it may be. God used the idolatrous barbaric pagans, who sacrificed their own children, to chastise Israel for their ungratefulness and disobedience to Him. The Pagans, who God loathed, still were used as a tool to chastise Israel.

So if this is just a human or satanic act and nothing else, then I condemn it as my humanity tells me. However if it is something more then I cannot condemn it for the sake that I might be condemning God’s own retribution as a punishment for our sins.

Well as long as you can never know for sure if it is divine retribution, why not just attribute the murder to a nut case.

All this talk of divine retribution, God getting back at a bad guy, makes the pro-life movement look bad. It gives a pass to a terrorist act which has no justification whatsoever - regardless who did it - God or man.