Abortion Doctor Geroge Tiller Murdered this morning

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If Tiller’s murder was divine retribution, then the hand of God led Roeder to pull the trigger. There are consequences to assigning the murder to God’s will or direct act.

Would God use a mentally deranged individual to carry out His deeds? Well, according to your suggestion that the murder was divine retribution, you are also suggesting that God uses people in heinous ways.

None of this makes sense. Tiller was murdered by a nut case. A fanatical nut case who no one in their right minds should condone or suggest that God had any hand in his actions.
Just a couple of comments…without advocating any specific interpretation…and also, I might add, believing that we must all condemn Tiller’s murder. Our Bishops and Priests, our leaders in the Faith, have been clear on the Church’s response to this act. That is their responsibility. Our is to obey in faith, as they do speak for God.

First, it seems to me that being termed “mentally ill” is often a function of the society in which one lives. As I understand, people of faith in Britain are commonly referred to, by those who are in positions of power and have no such faith, as “nutters.” As I understand so far (but maybe I’m wrong) this idea that Roeder is mentally ill is based on non-clinical opinions of known associates.

Secondly, there were numerous times in salvation history when God Himself worked through one person (Deborah was earlier raised as an example) on behalf of His people, at times when the “legitimate authority” had desperately failed. One cannot deny that the innocent unborn are God’s children. There are other references, I believe in Isaiah, where God speaks of a non-Israelite king as God’s “hand,” to do God’s will.

As I believe is stated in Jeremiah (or maybe Ezekiel, I don’t recall which), “All souls are mine. The soul that sins, shall die.”

Of course, all of this must be taken in the context that it is normally thorugh the Church that God makes His will and ways known to us. But as even the Church says, we cannot limit God’s ability to act according to His will (paraphrasing).

God bless and have mercy on us all.
 
Outta curiosity, and this is just a hypothetical question; if the act of George Tillers murder was an act of divine retribution(as has happened MANY times in the OT and the NT, Herod being struck down in Acts comes to mind), how would the faithful respond to it? If George Tillers murder was an act of divine retribution then we could be condemning God.

We have to remember that times when extremely excessive sin happens, God can sometimes intervene, like in Sodom and Gomorrah. Like just recently, the plane of a large abortion provider crashed right in front of an abortion memorial. To close off our mind to the possibility would be ignorance in my opinion.
I think it says somewhere in the Bible that these things will happen but woe to the one who commits them. To paraphrase. Badly. God may choose to do whatsoever He chooses. But I don’t think He would appreciate it very much if we go around attributing murder to His Divine Will. People choose to commit mortal sin, which all murder is; God does not will them to do it. God does not will evil. He may permit it, but He does not will it. You might be thinking of that other dude who thinks he’s god. But he ain’t.
 
Well as long as you can never know for sure if it is divine retribution, why not just attribute the murder to a nut case.

All this talk of divine retribution, God getting back at a bad guy, makes the pro-life movement look bad. It gives a pass to a terrorist act which has no justification whatsoever - regardless who did it - God or man.
I agree. As I said, I think it more likely that Satan is behind a nutcase killing Dr. Tiller and increasing the divisiveness in our world. He knows that killing an abortion doctor will actually lead to more acceptance of abortions rather than less.
 
I agree. As I said, I think it more likely that Satan is behind a nutcase killing Dr. Tiller and increasing the divisiveness in our world. He knows that killing an abortion doctor will actually lead to more acceptance of abortions rather than less.
Let’s not go the opposite either. God nor Satan possessed this killer, he did it because of his own warped mindset and choosing. “Divinely possessed” or “the Devil made me think it” excuses need to stop, people need to realize they were made by God with free will and some will choose good choices and some, like this killer, make very wrong ones.
 
Let’s not go the opposite either. God nor Satan possessed this killer, he did it because of his own warped mindset and choosing. “Divinely possessed” or “the Devil made me think it” excuses need to stop, people need to realize they were made by God with free will and some will choose good choices and some, like this killer, make very wrong ones.
I said Satan was “more likely” to be behind murder than God. I did not say that the killer was possessed or “the devil made him do it.” However, Satan is real and does tempt people. The murderer did choose his actions through his own free will. Do you believe he chose to do God’s will or give into evil temptations? I don’t think it was a neutral choice. 🤷
 
I said** Satan was “more likely” to be behind murder than God**. I did not say that the killer was possessed or “the devil made him do it.” However, **Satan is real **and does tempt people. The murderer did choose his actions through his own free will. Do you believe he chose to do God’s will or give into evil temptations? I don’t think it was a neutral choice.
Does that mean it’s okay to assume that Satan was “more likely” to have influenced Tiller to burn babies in an incinerator in his abortion mill after he killed them, by jabbing scissors in the back of their necks to suck out their brains so that their heads would cave in, before he yanked the baby out?** 60,000** babies (by his own admission)… made in God’s image and likeness…because it’s legal in this country? Is it safe to assume that** Satan** is behind the** law that allows** this kind of barbarism?
Didn’t Abel’s blood cry out to God from the soil? Didn’t God say to Cain (the first murderer)
“Therefore, you shall be banned from the soil that opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand…”…"and Cain said to the Lord…“my punishment is too great to bear…anyone may kill me at sight”. (paraphrase)Gen 4:8-14 (selections)
I’m just sayin’
 
When this news first broke out I’m sure the immeadiate reaction of many pro-life people (myself included) was “That’s one evil person who won’t be killing anymore defenseless babies” But my friends we can not and must not support the killing of Dr Tiller. Because if we do, we give consent to any and every would-be murderer to start killing any and every person affilliated with abortion clinics. Many of which are secretaries, appointment makers, and records keepers that have no real idea of the evil that is taking place behind closed doors. These murderers are not pro-life activists. They’re just evil people looking for a way to getaway with killing. I think it’s unfair that the pro-choicers and pro-abortionist President Obamah automatically blamed our entire movement for the actions of one man who we know so little about. For all we know Dr Tiller’s killer may have been a pro-choicer with a personal grudge. Just remember, if you say you’re pro-life except in cases of rape and incest then you are really pro-choice, because you have designated a group of people (through no fault of their own how they were conceived) to be killed. I just wonder if a pro-life person was killed in the middle of giving a public speech, would our President have been so quick to denounced the actions of the pro-choice movement?
 
Above: I spoke in error, because as I said in a previous post, Judaism is the only major world religion that does not prohibit abortion.

To put it another way, there are two fundamental positons on abortion.

The first is that it is the taking of a human life protected by God.

The second is that a fetus is not human, does not have a soul, and whether or not it becomes a human being is up to the mother to decide.

Secondary issues such as whether Protestants think abortion is ok if the mother is raped, or if Muslims think it is permissable sometimes in early pregnancy do not exclude those religions from being “pro-life”.They are pro-life, with disagreements over ethical dilemmas that might arise, etc.

They are certainly not “pro-choice” in the sense that the National Organization for Women is pro-choice. NOW believes that a mother should have the right to abort a baby for any conceivable reason.

The Catholic position is perfectly sacrifical and moral on the question of abortion, and is the only official religious position that is pefectly moral on abortion.

But the point is that cultures have a deep tradition of respecting life even outside the Catholic church, and that protecting the unborn is equivalent to prohibiting murders and thefts in civilized societies.
Jews don’t prohibit abortion? I don’t think so. For one thing, they’re still waiting for the Messiah. I’m sure they’re against abortion because it might be the Messiah. Why do you think Orthodox Jews have so many children? They don’t believe in interferring with life and await the Lord.
 
He won’t, of course…oh wait…here’s some “intellectual inquiry” for you. If Satan succeeds in fomenting hatred and bloodlust among the Pro-Life community, it will help hasten the “end times.” Is that what y’all are trying to accomplish?
Curses! You’ve seen through my brilliant plan!

I’ll get you next time, RLG!!!one!!

Anyhow, I think this conversation is rapidly approaching its useful end, but, regarding the Ann Coulter article: Does anyone think that a signature reading “Pro-Lifers: Way less violent than Muslims” would go over well with the mods (or the rest of the world)? (I mostly jest.)
 
I’ve been lurking on this thread, but wanted to post a link to a [lengthy] article that might be helpful for those here discussing the issue of whether anti-abortion violence could ever be morally acceptable for Catholics.

Professor Charles Rice, emeritus law professor at Notre Dame, published this article in 1994 in The Wanderer: “Can the Killing of Abortionists be Justified?”.

His answer is what I believe ALL of us should answer, resoundingly: NO. Especially in the political and social climate in which we live today, as pro-life Catholic Christians we can in no way condone Scott Roeder’s actions nor celebrate Tiller’s death. Remember, we are called by Christ to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us, and this is essential to the pro-life message. Tiller did horrible things, working hard for decades in a bunker-like abortion-mill. But no human being had the right to end his life, just as he had no right to end the thousands he did.

I am especially disturbed by Wowbagger’s post:
I take issue with the claim that Mr. Roeder was unequivocally in the wrong. It seems to me that he was not. It appears to me that the teachings of the Church (as well as sound common sense) clearly illustrate that, in slightly different circumstances, in slightly different times, conducted in the right mindset, Mr. Roeder’s actions could have been condoned.

We would have to label every illegal, foreseen killing in history “murder,” which is an extreme position that falls outside the mainstream of all Catholic thought.

Sometimes, the Church unquestionably calls us to act–lethally–against another human being, and does not ask us to consider the state of that person’s immortal soul.
Wowbagger, you are blurring the circumstances which would make violence acceptable, saying that “in slightly different circumstances” Roeder’s actions might be looked upon differently. This is unacceptable, and your reading in this area of CCC 2243 is exaggerated. To quote Professor Rice on the same section of the CCC:
The intentional killing of an abortionist could be justified only if it were** incidental to a justified rebellion**, which would itself be a just war, in which the abortionist was rightly regarded as a combatant and therefore a legitimate targetBy no stretch of the imagination can one reasonably conclude that we are in an insurrectionary situation in the United States today such as to justify his intentional killing of a person who was not then attacking anyone. A justified rebellion involves the assumption by private persons of the prerogative of the state to wage a just war. In a rebellion the war is waged against the state itself. In Roe v. Wade, and later cases, the Supreme Court, with the cooperation of Congress and the Executive Branch, has precipitated an unraveling of the American civic fabric. It cannot, however, be legitimately concluded that the situation has disintegrated so far beyond other means of correction that armed rebellion is justified in whole or in part.
Finally, to put everything in perspective, again from Prof. Rice:
The divine prohibition of intentional and direct killing (apart from the just war, including justified rebellion, and capital punishment) is absolute. In his 1993 encyclical, Veritatis Splendor, Pope John Paul II stated:
“The negative precepts of the natural law are universally valid. They oblige each and every individual, always and in every circumstance. It is a matter of prohibitions which forbid a given action semper et pro semper, without exception, because the choice of this kind of behavior is in no case compatible with the goodness of the will of the acting person, with his vocation to life with God and to communion with his neighbor. It is prohibited to everyone and in every case to violate these precepts. They oblige everyone, regardless of the cost, never to offend in anyone, beginning with oneself, the personal dignity common to all… The Church has always taught that one may never choose kinds of behavior prohibited by the moral Commandments expressed in negative form in the Old and New Testaments” (Veritatis Splendor, N. 52).
 
Curses! You’ve seen through my brilliant plan!

I’ll get you next time, RLG!!!one!!

Anyhow, I think this conversation is rapidly approaching its useful end, but, regarding the Ann Coulter article: Does anyone think that a signature reading “Pro-Lifers: Way less violent than Muslims” would go over well with the mods (or the rest of the world)? (I mostly jest.)
LOL !!! :rotfl:
 
And I think this is a black eye for the pro-life movement.
I’ve read this in many articles, blogs and forums. I understand the thought, but I can’t see allowing anyone to connect the dots. They don’t connect. Tiller’s murderer was a murderer. Plain and simple. The instability and reasoning of whomever did this is not consistent with the pro-life movement.

I’d suggest we all take a step back from this incident. Any attempt to connect Tiller’s murder with any “pro-life” movement needs to be squashed as the oxymoron it obviously is.

Tillers murder is neither a step forward or backward for the pro-life movement. It was the “choice” of an unstable individual. A bad one. Thank goodness there are laws that will keep him from harming again. It’s too bad the protection of all human life isn’t codified in law.

May God have mercy on both of these men.
 
Watching Fox News it was reported on the night of his murder that he had terminated over 60,000 fetuses during his 30+ year “career” as an abortionist.

This guy is Joseph Mengele. I have zero sympathy. I have more sympathy for the 60k lives destroyed by this sick butcher. Tiller the Killer was the nickname, appropriate.

Imagine during WWII with Himmler, Goebbels, Mengele, and all those Auschwitz/Sobibor death camps, the hundreds of thousands and eventually millions of Jews exterminated. After these guys committed suicide or were caught, nobody shed a tear. Tiller is nothing but a modern-day death camp Nazi IMO. Sick…

And as for this argument that Obama and his liberal goons now have more ammo and proof that we pro-lifers are lunatics and that our position is wrong, do you seriously think Obama and the left ever thought otherwise? They don’t need an excuse. They are assaulting life right and left anyway. Tiller had evaded conviction more than once. Heck, Sebelius, the new cabinet pick by Obama, was Tiller’s number one fan and donor in Kansas! This murder won’t set back the pro-life movement. Obama’s going to set it back with or without Tiller taking a dirt nap.
 
And as for this argument that Obama and his liberal goons now have more ammo and proof that we pro-lifers are lunatics and that our position is wrong, do you seriously think Obama and the left ever thought otherwise?
i dont care. anyone that could think abortion was ok, or EVER, EVER vote for someone who thought abortion was ok, i dont care about their opinons what so ever. by that fact alone they have proven themselves irrational and unfit for civilized debate or respect.
 
I have not read the other responses, quite deliberately.

This murder hits home with me. My daughter is pregnant with her second child and due to give birth within the next two or three weeks. A close friend of hers became pregnant at about the same time and the two of them were joyfully sharing their experience and looking forward to the birth of their new babies.

About a month ago, my daughter’s friend learned that her much wanted and anticiapted baby, due in less than two months, was sadly afflicted with severe, multiple chromosomal disorders. The baby lacked the lower part of her spinal cord, most of her brain, and had organ deformities that would have almost certainly caused her to die within days if not hours of birth.

Upon learning of this tragedy, my daughter’s friend decided upon a late term abortion.

I cannot begin to express the agonized conversations my daughter and I shared on this topic. Nor the prayers we shared that her friend would make peace with her situation short of aborting her baby.

Yet in the end she decided to go through with the tragic and wrenching experience of terminating the pregnancy so close to term. I do not and cannot know what agonies this young woman suffered in doing so. Nor do I pretend to know what counsel she received prior to making her decision. I only know the sad situation ended with the abortion. Or so we thought…

Today I learned that this young woman’s doctor was none other than Dr. George Tiller.

My daughther tells me that not only is her friend now devastated at the loss of her baby but now torn with guilt that her decision and those of other women like her cost this Dr. his life. I cannot and do not pretend to understand this situation nor all of its horrendus implications, but I would ask for prayers for all of those whose lives have been devastated by this horrible event.
 
Does that mean it’s okay to assume that Satan was “more likely” to have influenced Tiller to burn babies in an incinerator in his abortion mill after he killed them, by jabbing scissors in the back of their necks to suck out their brains so that their heads would cave in, before he yanked the baby out?** 60,000** babies (by his own admission)… made in God’s image and likeness…because it’s legal in this country? Is it safe to assume that** Satan** is behind the** law that allows** this kind of barbarism?
Of course. Why would I argue with that? 🤷
 
Rach, nice post. That’s a really good article. I’ve been thinking these thoughts for years, and occasionally I’ve asked pointed questions, and nobody’s ever replied with anything resembling a coherent, relevant answer. Now someone has.

I don’t want to disagree with Charles Rice, several of whose books are on our bookshelf downstairs, so I’ll start by saying that, in large part, he and I agree. We agree that direct and intentional killing is always wrong, as the Catechism says. We agree that killing can only be permitted defensively, under the principle of double effect, and the Catechism agrees with both of us (2264: “…if [a man in self-defense] repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful.”) We agree that the doctrines of just war, just armed resistance, and just capital punishment–which would seem, at first glance, to involve acts of direct, intentional killing–are in fact only extensions of the principle of self-defense.

We agree on prudential matters: violence, at least for now, “is not the most effective way to save the lives of unborn children.” It would be “counterproductive.” “If we attempt to combat the abortion movement with force, we oppose its strongest weapon, the coercive power of the state, with our weakest.” We even agree that “It cannot… be legitimately concluded that the situation has disintegrated so far beyond other means of correction that armed rebellion is justified in whole or in part.” (I think that, in the fifteen years since this was written, we are much closer to that disintegration than we have ever been before, but he and I still agree that we’re not there yet.) So when either of us is talking about times where anti-abortion violence can even be considered, we are both of us speaking in the hypothetical, about a world in which the anti-abortion political and legal movements have completely broken down and, to quote the Catechism, “it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.” How far we are from that point is an open question outside the scope of this discussion, but it doesn’t matter–we’re clearly not there yet. God willing, we’ll never get there.

We also seem to agree on the basic meaning of the phrase “armed resistance.” His continual replacement of the Catechism’s wording with his own phrase “justified rebellion” seems to indicate that he’s envisioning something involving armies and generals and Civil War-style battlefields rather than the asymmetric, guerilla affair modern warfare has largely become, but it makes very little difference what paradigm we’re using as long as we agree that “armed resistance” means “resisting political authority using violence” and that it is bound by all the normal rules of jus in bello.

So we agree on the basics: if Scott Roeder had lived in a world where there was no longer any reasonable hope of a non-violent solution, where all other means of redress had been exhausted–if, furthermore, he had gotten together enough of an army to have a reasonable hope of actually ending abortion in the state of Kansas or even the city of Wichita, and if he could do it without causing the “greater miseries” Paul VI warned of in Populorum Progressio, then, and only then, his application of necessary force to bring George Tiller to justice (hopefully only imprisonment; perhaps more) would have been justified and even necessary. It would not be vigilantism; it would be a defense of life and a restoration of law.

In my post, I called that a “slight” difference from the modern situation. You took strong exception to my use of that word, Rach. All things considered, you’re probably right. The neutralization of the pro-life movement and the raising of citizens’ armies would constitute more than a “slight” difference from present circumstances.

The main area where Prof. Rice and I disagree is one of prudence. While we agree in principle that armed resistance against abortion could be justified, he spends much of the second half of the article saying that those circumstances could never come about. Essentially, he assumes that the anti-abortion movement will always be in the same state it is today: factious, unarmed, and permanently in the minority, with our strongest weapon (aside from prayer, obviously, which is always the strongest weapon) being, today and forever, counselling. He might even be right. But there’s no reason to think that circumstances–and therefore prudential calculus–are immune to change. Indeed, I’d like to sit down with him sometime and talk it out. At the very least, there’s nothing anywhere in his article to support his extraordinarily strong claim, “The use of violence in the pro-life cause must be utterly rejected.” Rejected for now? Certainly. Rejected forever? Possibly. Utterly rejected, without even looking at the prudential considerations? There’s no case for that in the article I just read.

In short, I do not disagree with any of Prof. Rice’s conclusions except that one, which leapt out of nowhere and contradicts a lot of what he’d already written. We both close the door on anyone looking to justify current anti-abortion violence–but, rather than slamming it shut with the force of unqualified condemnation, we both close it gently with prudential considerations and put the key on the mantle, where we might need to use it later. If we disagree, it’s only on how likely it is that we will ever find ourselves in circumstances where we might need to open that door again.

There are a couple of other minor points I would like to address from the article–I don’t think his “Able and Baker” example holds up under even cursory examination–but I sense the CAF character limit approaching, and I don’t want to double-post again.

Thank you so much for that article, Rach–I’ve craved something like it for years.
 
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