Abortion has been made illegal! What happens now?

[snhs]

If what you say were true, the Church would not allow NFP. But on the contrary, the Church endorses NFP when families need to limit the number of children for financial, health or other reasons.

I disagree with your opinion on Catholic schools. I haven’t seen a bad one yet. But even if there are bad Catholic schools, the schools that my children attend are excellent.

And BTW, you don’t know what God’s plan is either. The best we can do in life is follow the Church’s teachings and be responsible in our behavior.

I think the Church allows NFP, whether they endorse it I’m not so sure. I haven’t seen any adverts for it in the Missal yet.

Fairly recently I finished 13 years of Catholic schooling having attended the top performing state Catholic secondary in the country, I’m certainly not bashing Catholic schools. What I am saying is that whether there are Catholic schools or not, whether parents can afford them or not, is not the be all and end all. We don’t prize Catholic schools because they have St. _____ as a Patron or because they have Mass on Holy Days of Obligation but because unlike American state schools they teach the Faith. But it is not the only way to teach the faith, nor is it perhaps the best. If we look at the early Church for example few if any would have went to anything remotely resembling a Catholic school today. Yet we know that many of them were committed enough to undergo martyrdom. I think even some of the most prestigious Catholic schools would be hard pressed to produce a significant proportion of the year group with that degree of commitment.

Well unlike some people I didn’t claim to did I? Interesting that you dodged the question about African parents, are they being irresponsible?

I think you’ve got it wrong actually. We are already responsible for our behaviour, although at times it may be slightly mitigated, similarly we can follow Church teaching to the letter. But unless we are open to the Christian philosophy and the will of God which forms and guides that teaching then it’s far too easy to go wrong. We all have a vocation, for example, and we can read scripture and the writings of Saints and the teachings of the Church. But none of them will tell us ‘You should be a Dad’ or ‘You should join the Jesuits’, for that we’re reliant on something we can’t plan for, maybe that’s irresponsible as well but it is the right thing to do.

Which is actually a good way to return to the point of the thread.

We can’t in our own lives plan for such things, they can happen and if there is a complete ban there are at least some cases where it will happen. Already there’s a divide among politicians, those who would ban it completely and those who’d allow it in the cases, or some of the cases, mentioned. But again it comes down to what is objectively right. It’s not right that a baby should pay with it’s life for the sins of his/her Father, least of all when the father will almost certainly face a far lesser penalty. It’s not right that financial realities should be placed above God’s will, which is what we risk by this obsession with money and false gods Pope Benedict spoke about recently. And it’s not right that we play the percentages with another’s life. If I were to conclude that by killing or betraying another innocent person who had a 90% chance of getting killed anyway it still wouldn’t be right to do, not from a Christian moral perspective anyway.

 

[demol]

You obviously endorse shutting down all the Catholic schools as the parents who send their children to them are lazy. I think you might have a lot of friends on this board…

Not at all. I just understand that as a parent it is my responsibility to provide an understanding of our faith. A parent is the primary source for religious education. I in no way endorse shutting down Catholic schools. They are wonderful. But I don’t rely on them to raise my children for me. If you leave it all to your children’s teachers, what do you do when your children ask you a question? Call up the teacher?

 

[adamsapple]

You really like to read into what someone is trying to state. No one is endorsing anything. We are saying that as a responsible parent we are our childrens primary educators. It is our responsibility to teach our children. This is something we should be doing since birth. No one is telling you not to send your children to catholic school or to pull your children out of school and home educate them.

Perhaps you didn’t read the last poster’s comment. He/she suggested that I was lazy because I don’t home school my children. This conversation is about the value of Catholic education and parental responsibility. Our home is well founded in Catholic theology and lifestyle. Our children have benefited by being part of a very conservative Catholic family - grandparents on down.
What you people fail to recognize is that family life carries the weight of responsibility and discipline. Yes, you can have 6, 8, 10 children, live in a cardboard box, send your kids to rotten public schools where they are exposed to drugs, pornography, promiscuous sex and everything else that infects the culture.
So do it - have all the kids you think God wants you to have. Exercise no discipline or self control, throw your kids to the wolves and hope for the best.
Answer to God for your actions. I will answer for mine.

 

[st_lucy]

Perhaps you didn’t read the last poster’s comment. He/she suggested that I was lazy because I don’t home school my children. This conversation is about the value of Catholic education and parental responsibility. Our home is well founded in Catholic theology and lifestyle. Our children have benefited by being part of a very conservative Catholic family - grandparents on down.
What you people fail to recognize is that family life carries the weight of responsibility and discipline. Yes, you can have 6, 8, 10 children, live in a cardboard box, send your kids to rotten public schools where they are exposed to drugs, pornography, promiscuous sex and everything else that infects the culture.
So do it - have all the kids you think God wants you to have. Exercise no discipline or self control, throw your kids to the wolves and hope for the best.
Answer to God for your actions. I will answer for mine.

in now way was the previous poster stating such a thing. He said that if you are simple relying on your child’s teacher to teach him his religion than you are being lazy. Which is true as a religious ed teacher I see this way too often.

And I simply resent the fact that you think having 8,9,10 or 15 children as being irresponsible. It is on the other hand irresponsible to think such a thing about someone who is taking the gifts (and yes children are just that) that God has given them and do the best they can for them. If you choose to tell God that He has know idea of what He is doing than you do have the free choice to do so, but please stop making the assumption that those who have a large family are irresponsible, because I for one envy them and their courage to face this culture of death we live in with their two income, two car, three kids life style.

 

[Ceil-1]

AA,

Why bother to send your kids to Catholic school if you endorse abortion for the sake of convenience? And don’t tell me you don’t, because you implied that it can be useful at least occasionally.

I don’t know if you are lazy, but you are certainly arrogant to suggest that we who disagree with you are automatically stupid, or inferior to you in any way. Your tone is very condescending. For someone who implies that he is Catholic, you have certainly been indoctrinated into the worldly point of view.

Do not lecture us about God or the Church because you clearly do not agree with its precepts. If you do, you are making yourself contrary just to make an arguement. That would be a strange position to take.

 

[adamsapple]

AA,

Why bother to send your kids to Catholic school if you endorse abortion for the sake of convenience? And don’t tell me you don’t, because you implied that it can be useful at least occasionally.

I don’t know if you are lazy, but you are certainly arrogant to suggest that we who disagree with you are automatically stupid, or inferior to you in any way. Your tone is very condescending. For someone who implies that he is Catholic, you have certainly been indoctrinated into the worldly point of view.

Do not lecture us about God or the Church because you clearly do not agree with its precepts. If you do, you are making yourself contrary just to make an arguement. That would be a strange position to take.

Where did I endorse abortion???

 

[Calliso]

We have fought, campaigned, and argued for many years and finally we have won. All forms of abortion have been banned in the USA and the United Kingdom!

Women can no longer murder their own children because children would be inconvenient for them. Promiscuous teens now have to deal with the consequences of a sexual relationship. Prostitutes can no longer kill the unwanted babies; pregnancies are no longer classed as an occupational hazard. A lot of innocent lives are saved, and a lot of infertile couples can now adopt the child that they have always wanted. The ban on abortion is hailed as being a great achievement! Most people agree that it should have been done decades ago.

Sarah thought the ban was great; that is, until she was raped and realised that she was pregnant. She didn’t want the baby because she knew the child would be a constant reminder of what happened. Sarah is also worried that the child would resemble it’s father and didn’t want to have to see him on a daily basis. What should she do?

Jane has six children already and finds out that she is pregnant. She has recently been made redundant and can hardly support the children she already has. She knows that she would be unable to care for the new baby, and that the baby would suffer as a result. What should she do?

Mary is the proud mother of a two year old girl. She decided to try for another baby and was extremely happy when she discovered that she was pregnant! However, after the first trimester her doctor told her that the baby only had a ten percent chance of survival. He also told her that there was a strong possibility that she could die during labour. The doctor would prefer to abort the baby but he no longer has the option. What should happen now?

We all know the evils of abortion, but the issue is not as black and white as we would like it to be. If abortion was criminalised, how would we solve problems like the ones listed above?

This is a discussion of the practical consequences of a complete ban on abortion. I am interested in hearing your solutions to some of the problems this would present.

. Well in the first case get counseling, also work with an adoption agency. Ideally she should be able to get someone to adopt the baby from birth she wonlt even have to see it if she does not want to.

. Look for finicial help and help on getting the new baby adopted out.

. This one is probably the hardest one to answer. First she should get at least one more doctors opinion maybe even two more doctors opinions. Now if they both see the same thing…well that is when things get dicey. Now she could go to another country where abortion isn;t illegal and get one…but then there would be the question of risk and is it really any safer then taking the route of having the baby? Or she could pray that she doesn;t die and her baby dies too. The above example though is why abortion must NEVER be illegal for lifethreatening cases. You are only killing both the mother and the baby in that case.

 

[feargalmac]

Perhaps you didn’t read the last poster’s comment. He/she suggested that I was lazy because I don’t home school my children. This conversation is about the value of Catholic education and parental responsibility. Our home is well founded in Catholic theology and lifestyle. Our children have benefited by being part of a very conservative Catholic family - grandparents on down.
What you people fail to recognize is that family life carries the weight of responsibility and discipline. Yes, you can have 6, 8, 10 children, live in a cardboard box, send your kids to rotten public schools where they are exposed to drugs, pornography, promiscuous sex and everything else that infects the culture.
So do it - have all the kids you think God wants you to have. Exercise no discipline or self control, throw your kids to the wolves and hope for the best.
Answer to God for your actions. I will answer for mine.

I don’t think anyone fails to recognise their responsibilities. How sure are you that your kids are not exposed to the above. Obviously you were, so you know the dangers. Should you not help to equip them with the tools they need to keep the danger at bay. If you keep them in a bubble of righteous loveliness, they may not be able to cope.

Can I ask one question? What do you think of Humanae Vitae? Do you agree that marital love should be open at all times to the gift of new life, or should all couples consult first with their bank manager before starting a family?

 

[jmcrae]

Sarah thought the ban was great; that is, until she was raped and realised that she was pregnant. She didn’t want the baby because she knew the child would be a constant reminder of what happened. Sarah is also worried that the child would resemble it’s father and didn’t want to have to see him on a daily basis. What should she do?

I knew Sarah; her son was one of my closest friends. As a single mother, life was hard for Sarah, but when Michael (she had named him Michael) turned 16, he started working part time at a grocery store. In addition to his earnings, he also received an employee discount at the store, and they were able to reduce their spending considerably.

Michael and his wife Jenna are taking care of Sarah, now. She retired from her teaching job three years ago, and enjoys travelling, water-colour painting, and reading to the kids once a week at the library. She tells the kids about what it was like when Michael was a baby, and how much she adored him when he came. She has never regretted keeping Michael; if you ask her today, she says he’s the best thing that ever happened to her.

Jane has six children already and finds out that she is pregnant. She has recently been made redundant and can hardly support the children she already has. She knows that she would be unable to care for the new baby, and that the baby would suffer as a result. What should she do?

Killing her child will not save her job, in any case. She will be just as broke either way, and if she keeps the baby, she can apply for the Income Supplement for Families with Children, which can be used either to pay for day care, or to pay directly for expenses related to child rearing.

If she’s already got six children and is pregnant again, then the eldest child is no younger than seven years old - old enough to help out around the house. At least five of them can walk, and at least three of them are attending school for at least part of the day. She is no worse off than when she had four children. She can also get help from the eldest of her children, as well as from her husband, in caring for the other children, so that all she has to focus on are the oldest child and the baby.

Mary is the proud mother of a two year old girl. She decided to try for another baby and was extremely happy when she discovered that she was pregnant! However, after the first trimester her doctor told her that the baby only had a ten percent chance of survival. He also told her that there was a strong possibility that she could die during labour. The doctor would prefer to abort the baby but he no longer has the option. What should happen now?

He should go back to medical school. There is no known disease in modern times that could be cured by aborting a pregnant woman’s baby.

 

[demol]

in now way was the previous poster stating such a thing. He said that if you are simple relying on your child’s teacher to teach him his religion than you are being lazy. Which is true as a religious ed teacher I see this way too often.

And I simply resent the fact that you think having 8,9,10 or 15 children as being irresponsible. It is on the other hand irresponsible to think such a thing about someone who is taking the gifts (and yes children are just that) that God has given them and do the best they can for them. If you choose to tell God that He has know idea of what He is doing than you do have the free choice to do so, but please stop making the assumption that those who have a large family are irresponsible, because I for one envy them and their courage to face this culture of death we live in with their two income, two car, three kids life style.

Thank you. That is exactly what I was trying to express.

 

[Salonika]

estesbob:

I was always trained to use the terminology “place for adoption” rather than “give up for adoption”. A woman who places her child for adoption is not giving up anything. What she is giving is the opportunity for a childless couple to fulfill God’s plan that they be a family.

Yes, there are advantages to using the term “place for adoption” including not making it sound so much that some parcel is being handed over.

However, placing a child for adoption makes it all sound so nice, clean and easy and closing a chapter for the girl/woman involved. It may be for some but not for many.

For some it is losing part of themselves, for some (when the adoption is closed) it is lifetime of wondering what happened to the child - is it alive, did it have a good upbringing, did the adoptive parents care?

 

[Salonika]

As the view has been expressed on this thread that God has a planned number of children for people, I will be starting as new thread “Should marriage be compulsory” (except for those who become a priest or religious so this can be discussed.

 

[SimonArizona]

There is just no plausable way to justify America being second only to Stalin in murders.

Stalin 60 millon
American killing unborn children 40 million:bighanky:
Hitler** 6 million**

 

[jesusismyrock]

I don’t endorse the abortion. But none of this is fun for the victims.
And people who choose to have very large families when they can’t afford them are irresponsible. This is the 21st century. God helps those who help themselves.

God never promised that LIFE (in all meanings of the word) would be easy… but he did promise that It would be worth it.

What right do we have to destroy Gods creation… because by doing so that means that we are playing God as if he had a hand in a famous poker game.

There was only 1 Einstein, no one can be like him. Suppose one of these aborted children was the one person that God created to cure Cancer.

Bet the abortion clinics don’t tell people stuff like that.

And personally… I would pay my life anyday I would willingly be tortured to death if I knew that the end of Abortion would occur.

If I was in the situation where I was pregnant and I had a great chance of dying in labor… well I don’t know about you, but I would die for my Child anyday.

Who is the better man.?

 

[adamsapple]

You know some of you folks need reading lessons - most likely the ones who don’t see the value of a Catholic education.
Three people, including the most recent poster, have suggested that I endorse abortion. Can one of you bright lights please point out where I have endorsed abortion???

 

[st_lucy]

You know some of you folks need reading lessons - most likely the ones who don’t see the value of a Catholic education.
Three people, including the most recent poster, have suggested that I endorse abortion. Can one of you bright lights please point out where I have endorsed abortion???

Charity and humility do go a long way.

You are accusing others of what you say your being accused of.

 

[demol]

You know some of you folks need reading lessons - most likely the ones who don’t see the value of a Catholic education.
Three people, including the most recent poster, have suggested that I endorse abortion. Can one of you bright lights please point out where I have endorsed abortion???

I think most that have posted do see the value of a Catholic education. We just do not rely on the school to do all of the work, the faith and values parents should be responsible for instilling and nurturing. I also do not allow the ability to provide a Catholic education determine the number of children my wife and I will have.

 

[jesusismyrock]

I think most that have posted do see the value of a Catholic education. We just do not rely on the school to do all of the work, the faith and values parents should be responsible for instilling and nurturing. I also do not allow the ability to provide a Catholic education determine the number of children my wife and I will have.

Amen to that.

Adams Apple: I am sorry if you feel like I am attacking you. That is not my intention. But I do disagree with you saying that people having families when they are financially unstable and all of these other things are fairly ridiculous. I have known several large families who work for minimum wage with 10 kids and they are not afraid because they don’t need money they need Jesus and they have truly come to realize that and believe me, Jesus is with them helping them through this.

And I do believe that Catholic Education is very important, but that doesn’t mean that I should not have kids because I can’t pay an $8000 tuition fee. Jesus and going to Church are all I need to give my children a Catholic Education.

 

[marietta]

Yes, you can have 6, 8, 10 children, live in a cardboard box, send your kids to rotten public schools where they are exposed to drugs, pornography, promiscuous sex and everything else that infects the culture

Just an aside here, but Catholic schools are not immune to immorality. Even back in the mid 1960s it was common knowledge among the boys in my suburban Northern Virginia community that a significant number of the girls who attended the local Catholic high school were among the most rabidly promiscuous in town. And drugs? Also available at the Catholic high school.

No one religion or culture is exempt from responsibility for the drug and promiscuity problem. Get over yourselves.

marietta

 

[marietta]

There was only 1 Einstein, no one can be like him. Suppose one of these aborted children was the one person that God created to cure Cancer.

Bet the abortion clinics don’t tell people stuff like that.

Nor do abortion clinics tell people stuff like, “Let’s aspirate that kid out of there right now - he might just be the next Stalin.”

Why on earth would personnel at an abortion clinic tell any patient anything like your statement or mine? Their job is not to change minds. Their job is to terminate pregnancies after the client has considered her options and chosen to terminate.

If these women wanted to have their minds changed, they would seek out a spiritual advisor or a therapist, or they would simply wait it out until it became too late to end the pregnancy.

One more thing: I’m putting my money on the notion that God is smart enough to create more than one person to cure cancer.

marietta