Abortion has been made illegal! What happens now?

[estesbob]

That’s not fair either. There are people who are going to vote for the ticket who are not pro-abortion. They are voting for the ticket because they are desperate to see other changes in government policies that have seriously crippled their families.

You can try and rationalize it any way you want-when you vote for a pro-abortion canidate you are supporting abortion. It Yo wold have us believethat at Nuremberg we should only have punished those who ran the gas chambers but not those who hired them to d so.

 

[estesbob]

It’s really none of your business who I vote for. And where have I said that I would do nothing about abortion. My opinion is that it’s more fruitful to change the hearts and minds of women rather than to legislate unenforceable laws.

You’re misinterpreting my statements because you don’t have a well formulated opinion yourself.

I have a very well formulated opinion-It is wrong to kill children and wrong to empower those who aid an abette the killing of children.

Your opinion is to let the children die until we can convince people that killing children is wrong. Even more suprising is your opinion that the way to change peoples mind on killing children is to elect people who support killing children.

 

[JReducation]

You can try and rationalize it any way you want-when you vote for a pro-abortion canidate you are supporting abortion. It Yo wold have us believethat at Nuremberg we should only have punished those who ran the gas chambers but not those who hired them to d so.

This is not rationalizing. This is trying to understand the situations and the motives why people make choices, in this case how they vote.

If we want to be as holy as Christ, we must understand why people do things. Jesus was not rationalizing when he said, “Forgive them for they know not what they do.”

Francis of Assisi was not rationalizing when he said, “That I may seek more to understand, than to be understood.”

The Church is not rationalizing when it said that moral culpability has to have freedom to choose without presure.

What I’m presenting is a view of morality that has been held by the Church since the time of Apostles.

There is objective morality and there is also subjective morality. Man’s choices are judged subjectively.

The action is judged objectively, not the person.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[adamsapple]

I have a very well formulated opinion-It is wrong to kill children and wrong to empower those who aid an abette the killing of children.

Your opinion is to let the children die until we can convince people that killing children is wrong.** Even more suprising is your opinion that the way to change peoples mind on killing children is to elect people who support killing children.**]

Where did I say that or even infer that??

 

[adamsapple]

If an illegal abortion is executed within the country of residency (I’m speaking about any country) that country would have the right to prosecute those whom they catch. There are also natural consequences of sin. If someon contracts an illness or there are complications those are natural consequences. We must still take care of them, because that’s charity. But charity does not mean that we protect people from natural consequences.

Agreed

Why should we. Pregnancy is not illegal. If a woman goes to another country to have an abortion, it is the responsibility of that country to prosecute those engaged in abortion. No country has the moral or divine right to legalize abortion.

Natual law is not concerned with practical or enforcable. Neither is the Gospel, much less the Church. We are concerned with what is just. Man cannot justify making laws that overrule God.

Incurring the wrath of the public is the least of a government’s worries when it comes to God. Incurring the wrath of God is much more distressing. As to intruding in privacy, no one is asking the government to look into people’s windows. The privacy excuse is not really an excuse. The government already intrudes in our privacy. Our privacy is not more sacred than innocent life.

Any government or any society that places privacy over the life of the innocent has a very skewed value system. As the Founding Fathers of this country told King George, when a government turns to acts of tyranny, it forfeits its rights and its citizens have the right to rebel.

The Church is clear that authorizing the killing of the innocent is a form of tyranny. This is not simply an opinion of the Church. This is an infallible statement that comes from scripture.

Fraternally,

JR

If abortion were made illegal tomorrow, would that stop the killing of the unborn? If the answer is no, then the answer is not legislation.

This is a secular government. Natural law, as interpreted by the Church is not, and should not, be forced on others.

The issue, as I see it, is whether governments should recognize the unborn as having human rights. Personally, I think it’s a no-brainer, but the majority doesn’t agree.

If all humans were granted human rights - born and unborn - then all laws protecting humans would apply to the fetus. In reality, however, I doubt that this will ever happen.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Sarah thought the ban was great; that is, until she was raped and realised that she was pregnant. She didn’t want the baby because she knew the child would be a constant reminder of what happened. Sarah is also worried that the child would resemble it’s father and didn’t want to have to see him on a daily basis. What should she do?

Jane has six children already and finds out that she is pregnant. She has recently been made redundant and can hardly support the children she already has. She knows that she would be unable to care for the new baby, and that the baby would suffer as a result. What should she do?

Mary is the proud mother of a two year old girl. She decided to try for another baby and was extremely happy when she discovered that she was pregnant! However, after the first trimester her doctor told her that the baby only had a ten percent chance of survival. He also told her that there was a strong possibility that she could die during labour. The doctor would prefer to abort the baby but he no longer has the option. What should happen now?

We all know the evils of abortion, but the issue is not as black and white as we would like it to be. If abortion was criminalised, how would we solve problems like the ones listed above?

This is a discussion of the practical consequences of a complete ban on abortion. I am interested in hearing your solutions to some of the problems this would present.

“D&E” (dilation and evacuation)
The physician inserts a long toothed clamp through the woman’s vagina into the uterus. She/he grabs body parts of the pre-born child at random, breaks them from the body and pulls them out. Finally, the head is crushed and extracted. Finally, the placenta and any remaining parts of the dead baby are suctioned from the uterus.

“D&X” (dilation and extraction)
The woman’s cervix is dilated. If necessary, the fetus is rotated until it is facing feet downwards. The surgeon reaches into the uterus and pulls the pre-born infant’s body, with the exception of its head, out of the woman’s body. Surgical scissors are inserted into the base of the skull, and withdrawn. A suction tube is inserted and the brains are removed through aspiration. This partially collapses the skull. The dead child is then fully removed from the woman’s body.

“Saline Abortion”
Most often used after the first trimester (first three months). The abortionist injects a strong salt solution directly into the amniotic sac (fluid surrounding the baby). The baby breathes and swallows it, is poisoned, struggles, and sometimes convulses. It takes over an hour to kill the baby. The mother delivers the dead baby in a day or two (sometimes alive!). Why “candy apple” babies? The corrosive effect of the salt solution often burns and strips away the outer layer of the baby’s skin. This exposes the raw, red, glazed-looking subcutaneous layer of tissue. The baby’s head sometimes looks like a candy apple. Some have also likened this method to the effect of napalm on innocent war victims. This technique was originally developed in the concentration camps in Nazi Germany.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Sarah thought the ban was great; that is, until she was raped and realised that she was pregnant. She didn’t want the baby because she knew the child would be a constant reminder of what happened. Sarah is also worried that the child would resemble it’s father and didn’t want to have to see him on a daily basis. What should she do?

Jane has six children already and finds out that she is pregnant. She has recently been made redundant and can hardly support the children she already has. She knows that she would be unable to care for the new baby, and that the baby would suffer as a result. What should she do?

Mary is the proud mother of a two year old girl. She decided to try for another baby and was extremely happy when she discovered that she was pregnant! However, after the first trimester her doctor told her that the baby only had a ten percent chance of survival. He also told her that there was a strong possibility that she could die during labour. The doctor would prefer to abort the baby but he no longer has the option. What should happen now?

These suggestions are simply and purely my opinions, but of course, I am a very spiritual and logical Catholic to the point where you’d just consider me Agnositc (which I’m not). Every problem or situation has a solution. It’s not always a pretty one, but there *is *always light at the end of the tunnel no matter how pitch black it seems to be:

“Sarah’s” situation: Giving birth to the product of rape is a terrifying situation, but that baby could turn out to be the best thing in her life and ours. She should not dwell on the past no matter who her child looks like; she should be strong for her child. It would be a difficult road, but hey! Ugly situations always spawn beautiful results if it’s dealt with in the right way.

“Jane’s” situation: She should’ve thought twice, but apparently there is no going back. She would definitely need help from relatives, friends, and, most importantly, the father (assuming that the father is actually present).

“Mary’s” situation: Take the chance. If the baby dies, at least she and her (presumable) husband tried. If she dies and the baby survives, it was a life for a life. If they both die, it was just their times’ end.

My Final Thought: Complete ban on abortion? I wish.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[Chris_LaRock]

They will find whatever excuse they can to kill unborn children!

Just how many children have to be butchered before the pro-abort’s blood lust is satisfied? 100,000,000???

 

[estesbob]

They will find whatever excuse they can to kill unborn children!

Just how many children have to be butchered before the pro-abort’s blood lust is satisfied? 100,000,000???

20,000 children have died since this thread began I guess we wont be able to change their hearts and minds.

 

[Trilor]

Let’s assume that abortion has indeed been made illegal. What sentence should be given to the women who get an abortion anyway?

Just asking. Don’t hit me!

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Let’s assume that abortion has indeed been made illegal. What sentence should be given to the women who get an abortion anyway?

Just asking. Don’t hit me!

Life in prison, just like Susan Smith got for drowning her two sons. The abortionist who perfomed the killing should be thrown into prison for murder as well.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

20,000 children have died since this thread began I guess we wont be able to change their hearts and minds.

Hundreds of rapes, thefts, child molestations, and assaults have taken place since this thread was started too. Changing the hearts and minds of people who do such things ia wishful thinking. But passing laws and enforcing them will ensure justice is done.

 

[chop]

Sarah thought the ban was great; that is, until she was raped and realised that she was pregnant. She didn’t want the baby because she knew the child would be a constant reminder of what happened. Sarah is also worried that the child would resemble it’s father and didn’t want to have to see him on a daily basis. What should she do?

I daren’t presume to tell her what she should do, but since abortion is illegal, she can either keep the child or she can give it up for adoption.

Jane has six children already and finds out that she is pregnant. She has recently been made redundant and can hardly support the children she already has. She knows that she would be unable to care for the new baby, and that the baby would suffer as a result. What should she do?

Jane is not alone.

She has a husband or boyfriend to rely on.

If she doesn’t have a husband, she has family and friends.

If Jane doesn’t have a husband, boyfriend, family or friends, then she can still rely on the welfare state.

In the UK, she is entitled to Jobseeker’s Allowance. In addition, her local council is obliged to pay her several thousand pounds a month, i.e. the median rate to rent seven bedroomed accommodation, with one bedroom for her and six bedrooms for her six children. She is also entitled to state benefits for each of her six children. Now of course she’ll still be poor if she doesn’t work (and maybe even if she does) and life will be a struggle, but she’ll have plenty of help supporting the children that she already has and any that do come along. Her children will be fed and clothed and with government assistance (grants, student loans and other subsidies) all her children will be able to attend university should they wish to. And of course, she probably does have family, friends and perhaps a husband or boyfriend to help her through this difficult time until she can find another job.

Mary is the proud mother of a two year old girl. She decided to try for another baby and was extremely happy when she discovered that she was pregnant! However, after the first trimester her doctor told her that the baby only had a ten percent chance of survival. He also told her that there was a strong possibility that she could die during labour. The doctor would prefer to abort the baby but he no longer has the option. What should happen now?

I would doubt that our new abortion law would lack provisions for such circumstances, especially if it was inspired by Catholic teaching. In any case, even if the abortion law were gravely flawed, and though I am not a moral or legal expert, I’m pretty sure the doctor, operating on her to save her life wouldn’t be guilty of murder because it is hardly his intention to kill the baby, but to save the mother’s life.

We all know the evils of abortion, but the issue is not as black and white as we would like it to be. If abortion was criminalised, how would we solve problems like the ones listed above?

In the first problem, abortion doesn’t unrape the woman. She’s still been violated and it’s abhorrent to presume that anything at all, let alone a vile and immoral medical procedure, could ever take the horror of what she’d suffered through away.

In the second case, the woman might have to delay her holiday to Bermuda until she finds another job, but she’ll be just fine, and so will her children.

In the third, it would be manifestly ridiculous for the doctor to be legally forbidden from saving the woman’s life if indeed such a need arose.

 

[jesusismyrock]

Then you obviously endorse closing them all down. To what end, may I ask?
It’s amazing that so many people on this board do not support Catholic education. Next to the family, it is the heart and soul of Catholic formation.
It is a sad state of affairs when Catholics do not support their own.

We do not disagree with Catholic Education. But my kids will never go to a school. My kids will be home-schooled at all costs.

Apparently you have had a very good experience at a Catholic School… but several SEVERAL Catholic Schools are going downhill rapidly. There are none in my area that are good schools.

Why are you arguing that someone can teach our children better Catholic Education than we can? All you need is Jesus and a good Catholic upbringng.

Get over yourself.

 

[jesusismyrock]

Then you obviously endorse closing them all down. To what end, may I ask?
It’s amazing that so many people on this board do not support Catholic education. Next to the family, it is the heart and soul of Catholic formation.
It is a sad state of affairs when Catholics do not support their own.

And no… Catholic School is not aside from the family the heart and soul of Catholic formation…
Any Strong Catholic would know that it is Jesus and the Church that come first.

Just to point that out.

 

[jesusismyrock]

Point of order. It is most unlikely that abortion will be made illegal.

The best you can hope for is for the Supreme Court to overturn Roe vs. Wade. This will leave it up to the 50 individual states to decide if abortion is legal or illegal, and if legal what restrictions, if any, will be in place.

At the time of Roe vs. Wade, only a few states allowed abortion. If Roe vs. Wade were overturned next year, quite a few states would retain abortion. My own state of California would be one of those.

There is probably no legal way to prevent a woman living in an anti-abortion state from going to another state for an abortion. But too bad if you are too poor to afford it. Before Roe vs. Wade, those who could afford it traveled to Sweden, Switzerland, or other countries for abortions. Too bad if you were too poor to afford it. Nowadays Canada is an affordable destination.

Your chances of passing a Constitional Amendment to ban abortion are…well…not too good. Perhaps after the horse learns to sing.

I’m sorry I disagree. GOD CAN DO ALL THINGS.
*just to let you know.

 

[Salonika]

Let us not reduce this to judging people as being pro-abortion without understanding that stressors that they face in order to survive.

Fraternally,

JR

And that is one of the reasons I am going to unsubcribe to this thread - another is that I do not find accusations and the occasional dose of venom help reasoned discussion of the topic.

 

[estesbob]

Hundreds of rapes, thefts, child molestations, and assaults have taken place since this thread was started too. Changing the hearts and minds of people who do such things ia wishful thinking. But passing laws and enforcing them will ensure justice is done.

Exactly!

 

[estesbob]

And that is one of the reasons I am going to unsubcribe to this thread - another is that I do not find accusations and the occasional dose of venom help reasoned discussion of the topic.

The truth is often painful. It is also very painful when people of good faith wake up and see the abject evil they have been supporting. Likewise dishonors the millions killed when we make excuses for those who support this evil.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Exactly!

The Thomas More Society is a group of Pro-Life lawyers. If you were to get enough victims of forced abortions together, you could help them file a class action lawsuit.

Here’s their e-mail address:

info@thomasmoresociety.org