Abortion has been made illegal! What happens now?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dempsey1919
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Many girls and women get abortions because it is legal. The law sets the moral tone of a nation. If the government is for it, it can’t be that bad, people think.

At our local 40 Days for Life, our leader was moved to tears because two counter protestors told her to shut down, that this stuff would be moved back to the “back alleys”.

How I wish I had been there. The fact that it is touted as “health care”, and legitimized as a clinic with a “doctor”, and girls in scrubs, causes these girls to think this is a legitimate thing. They very likely would not seek out a seedy, filthy back alley. They would be forced to face their responsibilities.

It is murder, and should be treated as such. If they wish to decriminalize it by not prosecuting the abortionists, so be it. Under no circumstances should a woman be villified for it. On the other hand, assistance should be offered her, and adoption an easy option. Counseling with the aim of admitting she did herself harm by going through with it, should be provided, free of charge.
That is what a moral government would do.

We ned to stop legitimizing abortion. It is a lie.
 
Ceil-1 said:
Many girls and women get abortions because it is legal. The law sets the moral tone of a nation. If the government is for it, it can’t be that bad, people think.

At our local 40 Days for Life, our leader was moved to tears because two counter protestors told her to shut down, that this stuff would be moved back to the “back alleys”.

How I wish I had been there. The fact that it is touted as “health care”, and legitimized as a clinic with a “doctor”, and girls in scrubs, causes these girls to think this is a legitimate thing. They very likely would not seek out a seedy, filthy back alley. They would be forced to face their responsibilities.

It is murder, and should be treated as such. If they wish to decriminalize it by not prosecuting the abortionists, so be it. Under no circumstances should a woman be villified for it. On the other hand, assistance should be offered her, and adoption an easy option. Counseling with the aim of admitting she did herself harm by going through with it, should be provided, free of charge.
That is what a moral government would do.

We ned to stop legitimizing abortion. It is a lie.
Click to expand...
Bravo bravo!
 
Ceil-1 said:
Many girls and women get abortions because it is legal. The law sets the moral tone of a nation. If the government is for it, it can’t be that bad, people think.

At our local 40 Days for Life, our leader was moved to tears because two counter protestors told her to shut down, that this stuff would be moved back to the “back alleys”.

How I wish I had been there. The fact that it is touted as “health care”, and legitimized as a clinic with a “doctor”, and girls in scrubs, causes these girls to think this is a legitimate thing. They very likely would not seek out a seedy, filthy back alley. They would be forced to face their responsibilities.

It is murder, and should be treated as such. If they wish to decriminalize it by not prosecuting the abortionists, so be it. Under no circumstances should a woman be villified for it. On the other hand, assistance should be offered her, and adoption an easy option. Counseling with the aim of admitting she did herself harm by going through with it, should be provided, free of charge.
That is what a moral government would do.

We ned to stop legitimizing abortion. It is a lie.
Click to expand...
I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph. However, there are contradictions in the balance of your statement and that’s where the issue runs into trouble.

You say that abortion should be treated as murder. But the “murderer” is actually the mother who makes the decision. The abortion doctor is really just a willing party to the mother’s decision. Making an exception for the mother makes the law a moot point.

Yes, there will be some women who will not have an abortion because it is illegal. But no one knows what that number would be - and it would be irrelevant anyway. Once again, this type of law is not enforceable, even with the best of intentions.

Women already have assistance and support if they are questioning whether to have an abortion. Even Planned Parenthood offers assistance and referral services to women with unplanned pregnancies who don’t want to abort.

In a perfect world, the government would be “moral” in all civilized legislation and practices. But in fact, government fails more than it succeeds. One need not look further than the current financial crisis.

I’m against laws that are unenforceable and which create a black underground.

I still say that focusing on the politicians is a waste of time. Focus on the women who actually consider abortion an option. I think it would be much more productive.
 
adamsapple said:
I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph. However, there are contradictions in the balance of your statement and that’s where the issue runs into trouble.

You say that abortion should be treated as murder. But the “murderer” is actually the mother who makes the decision. The abortion doctor is really just a willing party to the mother’s decision. Making an exception for the mother makes the law a moot point.

Yes, there will be some women who will not have an abortion because it is illegal. But no one knows what that number would be - and it would be irrelevant anyway. Once again, this type of law is not enforceable, even with the best of intentions.

Women already have assistance and support if they are questioning whether to have an abortion. Even Planned Parenthood offers assistance and referral services to women with unplanned pregnancies who don’t want to abort.

In a perfect world, the government would be “moral” in all civilized legislation and practices. But in fact, government fails more than it succeeds. One need not look further than the current financial crisis.

I’m against laws that are unenforceable and which create a black underground.

I still say that focusing on the politicians is a waste of time. Focus on the women who actually consider abortion an option. I think it would be much more productive.
Click to expand...
First off, Planned Parenthood wants to make money. Period. They aren’t interested in referring them elsewhere. Second of all, you have your murdered mixed up. The doctor is one, who with his instrument, often either dismembers the little child or vacuums the child out…as the child is still breathing and has a beating heart, or whatever other horrible procedure they use. Third off, claiming that laws are unenforceable, create a black underground, etc. would normally not be used in any other situation, ESPECIALLY for something so grave. When we wanted to abolish slavery, we went to the government. You wouldn’t just say…well let’s just change people’s mind or focus on the slave owners…as if we’d be able to convince through some miracle of logic to let them free. Then racism and segregation. By no means would we have said that its just too difficult and we should, while actually allowing segregation, start “focusing” on whomever.

Now if “unenforceability” is a problem, whatever that’s supposed to mean, we may as well repeal every other law that can’t be enforced like some Gestapo-like police force. Let’s then repeal drug laws…since people do it anyway. Let’s repeal all murder laws…since there are those who, because of the ‘black underground’ create by illegal homicide, might go through the mafia or such. Ah then, let’s lift all racist discrimination laws, since many people still do it. Oh yes, and let’s have the UN change its mind on the UN Declaration of Human Rights…because many countries ignore it anyway. And let’s repeal laws that govern a teacher’s behaviour around a student…since so many don’t obey it anyway. Over by the border, let’s just cancel all immigration laws since they’ll be coming through. We should then also cancel all those human trafficking laws…since they’ve occured anyway. So I guess, based on this logic, if a law has any trouble in its “enforceability”, we may as well repeal it. From vandalism to heinous drug-related murders…we may as well legalise them since so many people break those laws anyway and seek a black market.

This isn’t like Prohibition, which had the unintended effect. This isn’t about outlawing alcohol…this is about protecting little children from being killed. It isn’t that abortion should or should not be treated as homicide…it is homicide…regardless of our opinions. If I killed a man of another ethnicity and perhaps the law or I didn’t recognise it as murder…its still murder…it doesn’t matter what I or the state thinks…its murder. Period. We’ve never been so weak with any other serious injustice in society…why are we so weak on the WORST injustice in the history of humanity?
 
Mr_Fausto said:
First off, Planned Parenthood wants to make money. Period. They aren’t interested in referring them elsewhere. Second of all, you have your murdered mixed up. The doctor is one, who with his instrument, often either dismembers the little child or vacuums the child out…as the child is still breathing and has a beating heart, or whatever other horrible procedure they use. Third off, claiming that laws are unenforceable, create a black underground, etc. would normally not be used in any other situation, ESPECIALLY for something so grave. When we wanted to abolish slavery, we went to the government. You wouldn’t just say…well let’s just change people’s mind or focus on the slave owners…as if we’d be able to convince through some miracle of logic to let them free. Then racism and segregation. By no means would we have said that its just too difficult and we should, while actually allowing segregation, start “focusing” on whomever.

Now if “unenforceability” is a problem, whatever that’s supposed to mean, we may as well repeal every other law that can’t be enforced like some Gestapo-like police force. Let’s then repeal drug laws…since people do it anyway. Let’s repeal all murder laws…since there are those who, because of the ‘black underground’ create by illegal homicide, might go through the mafia or such. Ah then, let’s lift all racist discrimination laws, since many people still do it. Oh yes, and let’s have the UN change its mind on the UN Declaration of Human Rights…because many countries ignore it anyway. And let’s repeal laws that govern a teacher’s behaviour around a student…since so many don’t obey it anyway. Over by the border, let’s just cancel all immigration laws since they’ll be coming through. We should then also cancel all those human trafficking laws…since they’ve occured anyway. So I guess, based on this logic, if a law has any trouble in its “enforceability”, we may as well repeal it. From vandalism to heinous drug-related murders…we may as well legalise them since so many people break those laws anyway and seek a black market.

This isn’t like Prohibition, which had the unintended effect. This isn’t about outlawing alcohol…this is about protecting little children from being killed. It isn’t that abortion should or should not be treated as homicide…it is homicide…regardless of our opinions. If I killed a man of another ethnicity and perhaps the law or I didn’t recognise it as murder…its still murder…it doesn’t matter what I or the state thinks…its murder. Period. We’ve never been so weak with any other serious injustice in society…why are we so weak on the WORST injustice in the history of humanity?
Click to expand...
And that’s my point exactly. You won’t save any children. Most likely it will cost more lives. There’s absolutely no evidence that banning abortion would save fetuses.

Regardless of your opinion of Planned Parenthood, the fact is that they do provide support and assistance for women who don’t want to abort. That’s a fact, not an opinion.
 
adamsapple said:
And that’s my point exactly. You won’t save any children. Most likely it will cost more lives. There’s absolutely no evidence that banning abortion would save fetuses.
Click to expand...
Before Roe V Wade abortions were aprox 400,000 a year. Two years after it was forced on the country abortions had increased toover 1.5 million a year and has since settled down to about 1.2 a year,
Regardless of your opinion of Planned Parenthood, the fact is that they do provide support and assistance for women who don’t want to abort. That’s a fact, not an opinion.
Click to expand...
What support and assistance does Planned Parenthood provide to women who opt not to have an abortion?
 
estesbob said:
What support and assistance does Planned Parenthood provide to women who opt not to have an abortion?
Click to expand...
I am interested in the answer to this as well. And not just an anectdotal story of one small chapter with a compassionate volunteer who couldn’t get the woman to abort and so sent her elsewhere.
 
adamsapple said:
It’s right there in black on white on their website. Blaming Planned Parenthood for abortions is ridiculous.

plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/pregnancy/parenting-21521.htm
Click to expand...
LOL-so offering parenting advice on a webbsite constitutes supporting women who opt not to have an abortion. Give me a break. At my local CPC we assist women with adoptions, we provide them with maternity clothes, rent assistance, help with college expense,provide car seats , parennting classes and offer food assistance. Planned Parenthood, after denying tens of millions women the opportunityto be a parent , puts a few innoccuous words on a websitte and suddenly becomes a champion of women who don’t abort
 
estesbob said:
LOL-so offering parenting advice on a webbsite constitutes supporting women who opt not to have an abortion. Give me a break. At my local CPC we assist women with adoptions, we provide them with maternity clothes, rent assistance, help with college expense,provide car seats , parennting classes and offer food assistance. Planned Parenthood, after denying tens of millions women the opportunityto be a parent , puts a few innoccuous words on a websitte and suddenly becomes a champion of women who don’t abort
Click to expand...
I don’t understand how Planned Parenthood “denies” women the opportunity to be a parent. They don’t force anyone to have an abortion. It’s strictly the choice of the mother.

You’re looking for a scapegoat. The mother makes the choice. Not PP, not the doctor, not anyone else but the mother.

And I think it’s great that your organization offers assistance to women who choose not to abort. But again, it’s the mother’s choice, not yours, that she’s there in the first place.
 
adamsapple said:
I don’t understand how Planned Parenthood “denies” women the opportunity to be a parent. They don’t force anyone to have an abortion. It’s strictly the choice of the mother.

You’re looking for a scapegoat. The mother makes the choice. Not PP, not the doctor, not anyone else but the mother.

And I think it’s great that your organization offers assistance to women who choose not to abort. But again, it’s the mother’s choice, not yours, that she’s there in the first place.
Click to expand...
I assume you’re backing off your claim that Planned Parenthood provide support for women who opt not to have an abortion

By the way what other social probllems do you feel that killing potential recipients is the best way to solve them
 
estesbob said:
I assume you’re backing off your claim that Planned Parenthood provide support for women who opt not to have an abortion

By the way what other social probllems do you feel that killing potential recipients is the best way to solve them
Click to expand...
I’m not backing off my claim. Call Planned Parenthood tomorrow under the pretense that you need help but don’t want to abort. See what they say.

As for your second statement, I do not endorse abortion. I have said that now about a dozen times on this thread.

On the other hand, there’s no evidence that you are saving any lives.
 
adamsapple said:
I’m not backing off my claim. Call Planned Parenthood tomorrow under the pretense that you need help but don’t want to abort. See what they say.
Click to expand...
Hmm…heard about something like that it. Involved a guy pretending to complaining about affirmative action and asking to donate money specifically to kill a black child. Several of these were done and most of the times the worker at the other line was very enthusiastic about using the money to target black children. Very much in line with their founder’s idealogy, who wanted to exterminate “vermin”, i.e. non-white races. Defending Planned Parenthood…hmm let’s defend the Nazis next now and talk about all the good they supposedly did in Germany. Then let’s praise Stalin for all his work on industrialising Russia. Nevermind their atrocities, they did good things!
adamsapple said:
As for your second statement, I do not endorse abortion. I have said that now about a dozen times on this thread.
Click to expand...
You don’t “endorse” it. Oh, such strong language in protest! Can you imagine saying that about anything else? Well, the KKK does provide parents something to share with their kids…but I don’t necessarily endorse racist lynchings of course.
adamsapple said:
On the other hand, there’s no evidence that you are saving any lives.
Click to expand...
As if this made abortion any less wrong. Even if every single pro-lifer did nothing to save lives…abortion would still be a demonic evil that every single human being has a grave obligation to fiercely oppose and fight. And if you’re insinuating that the pro-lifers here are in anyway hypocritical, there’s always that in any cause, which still can’t justify dismembering little children. 'Hmm…well that pro-life movement I think is full of hypocrites". Hey, there’s always room for one more so jump aboard! 👍
 
Mr_Fausto said:
Hmm…heard about something like that it. Involved a guy pretending to complaining about affirmative action and asking to donate money specifically to kill a black child. Several of these were done and most of the times the worker at the other line was very enthusiastic about using the money to target black children. Very much in line with their founder’s idealogy, who wanted to exterminate “vermin”, i.e. non-white races. Defending Planned Parenthood…hmm let’s defend the Nazis next now and talk about all the good they supposedly did in Germany. Then let’s praise Stalin for all his work on industrialising Russia. Nevermind their atrocities, they did good things!

You don’t “endorse” it. Oh, such strong language in protest! Can you imagine saying that about anything else? Well, the KKK does provide parents something to share with their kids…but I don’t necessarily endorse racist lynchings of course.

As if this made abortion any less wrong. Even if every single pro-lifer did nothing to save lives…abortion would still be a demonic evil that every single human being has a grave obligation to fiercely oppose and fight. And if you’re insinuating that the pro-lifers here are in anyway hypocritical, there’s always that in any cause, which still can’t justify dismembering little children. 'Hmm…well that pro-life movement I think is full of hypocrites". Hey, there’s always room for one more so jump aboard! 👍
Click to expand...
Fausto, you’re an extremist. The ones who turn people off to the mere idea that abortion should be reduced or illegal.

Get a grip.
 
estesbob said:
LOL . . . Planned Parenthood, after denying tens of millions women the opportunityto be a parent , puts a few innoccuous words on a websitte and suddenly becomes a champion of women who don’t abort
Click to expand...
Planned Parenthood has not denied tens of millions of women the “opportunity” to become parents. Women seeking abortion do not view their pregnancies as “an opportunity”. The women you refer to legally opted not to carry their pregnancies to term. This is not on Planned Parenthood.

Some women likely gave little thought to their actions or the consequences thereof. But many, many women choose abortion after much deliberation, soul searching and anguish. And some of these women have undoubtedly been Catholic women who, like women of other strong faiths, have placed their religious/spiritual beliefs in the center of the deliberations and have still elected to proceed with their abortions.

Planned Parenthood has not denied women anything that the women have chosen for themselves. The women alone are culpable for their actions and will answer directly to God, if they believe in God. If God is indeed all-forgiving, and the women are penitent, then it will work out.

Insert here: “Yes, but the baby is dead!” Whether zygote, embryo, or fetus, the moral dilemma raised by the termination of the pregnancy is between the woman and God.

marietta
 
I’ve often wondered why in the world anyone would use the agument “It’s between the woman and God”.

this implies that:

#1 God is real

#2 God has an interest

It’s precisely because God is real and God has an interest that Catholics want abortion to end. If God was imaginary or didn’t have an interest, anyone could legitimately do whatever they wanted to, even kill people. However, if everyone really agreed that God was, in fact, sitting in judgement over women who chose to abort their babies and those who facilitated it, the pro-choice side would back far, far off of their current poisition.

Rather, I think, the pro-choice position is simply one of de-facto atheism. The line about “between the woman and God” is a throwaway line and a lie from people who don’t believe that any woman will ever stand before the throne of God and have to give account for asking someone to kill their unborn child.

IF any person really believes in God, the soul, heaven, hell, judgement…then they will logically and necessarily believe that great amounts of suffering on Earth (even that great suffering experienced by a woman who finds herself pregnant when she doesn’t want to be) is better to experience than to be judged unworthy to enter heaven.

SO, again, I submit that no pro-choice person who ever uttered the line “It’s between the woman and God” really believed it. If they did believe it that a woman will stand in judgement before God for her choice, they’d be doing anything possible to make the choice of death unthinkable…and illegal is a good step toward unthinkable.

Happy lightning rod, I am.
 
adamsapple said:
I’m not backing off my claim. Call Planned Parenthood tomorrow under the pretense that you need help but don’t want to abort. See what they say.

As for your second statement, I do not endorse abortion. I have said that now about a dozen times on this thread.

On the other hand, there’s no evidence that you are saving any lives.
Click to expand...
Well, I guess I don’t understand why you tried to make an argument that PP offers a wider range of services than contraceptives and abortion if you claim you don’t endorse abortion.

PP has got a lot going on and none of it is really that redemptive. Even some of the softer pro-choicers find themselves at odds with the often militant-style marketing and profiteering tactics this company does.

Have you checked out their financial reports?
 
How many of you know-it-alls lecturing us about PP have actually had any business with them?

Not many, I would guess.

The fact is, I have had dealings of several different sorts with them, and know what they’re about. BTW, they are lousy employers. The local PP promoter (“educator”, goes into the schools and such), was a Dominatrix at one of these cat houses before she became official promoter of sexual exploration with your children. I have attended one of her seminars. She’s not in the least bit ashamed of her, er, training for this job.

And another thing. What is it about these abortion supporters that the subject always manages to turn around to themselves?

Very telling, I think. Small wonder this country is going down the tubes. Not to worry, though, the only types producing offspring, these days, are the types that do defend life, liberty and the family. Rather ironic, don’t you think?
 
On the front of a booklet our local PP puts out entitled, Talking with Children about HIV/AIDS a little boy addresses his father,
“I think I understand everything, Dad… but how does the bee put on a condom?” (chortle, chortle, chortle, snort, snort)

It goes on from there, advising parents to relax and talk about sex day and night with your kids.

Yeah, a really useful, wholesome bunch of people, these PP types.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top