Abortion in the case of rape AND the life of the mother

[LoganBice]

Rape can be divorced from abortion. The average number of rape cases in the US per annum is 89 000. Were all those women lucky enough not to get pregnant, or did they decide to proceed with the pregnancy? The reason rape causes a small percent of abortion is women who report rape are offered the morning after pill which is not considered as an abortion. Or - did they not get pregnant because they chose to avail of taking the morning after pill?

Should that be counted as an abortion or not? Many would say no. Would they be right?

Once again I am talking about USA statistic. I am not saying that its not a big problem. It obviously is and needs to be addressed but what I know is that abortion is not justified even in the case of rape… that is the teaching of the Catholic Church. People may say no but the Church teaches that if you take the morning after pill and it results in a termination of the pregnancy then it is an abortion. It is only not an abortion when it blocks the fertilization of the egg which is still a mortal sin cause it is contraception but if the egg is fertilized and the morning after pill terminates it then it is abortion.

 

[minkymurph]

Once again I am talking about USA statistic. I am not saying that its not a big problem. It obviously is and needs to be addressed but what I know is that abortion is not justified even in the case of rape… that is the teaching of the Catholic Church. People may say no but the Church teaches that if you take the morning after pill and it results in a termination of the pregnancy then it is an abortion. It is only not an abortion when it blocks the fertilization of the egg which is still a mortal sin cause it is contraception but if the egg is fertilized and the morning after pill terminates it then it is abortion.

In that case women who are offered the morning after pill because they have been raped should be included in abortion statistics. They are not, and the figure amounts to potentially what I have stated. I would not describe those figures as a small percentage of abortions.

 

[LoganBice]

In that case women who are offered the morning after pill because they have been raped should be included in abortion statistics. They are not, and the figure amounts to potentially what I have stated. I would not describe those figures as a small percentage of abortions.

I’m am extremely confused on what is being argued here. is the point of this to try and justify abortion in the case of rape or are we discussing the flawed statistics. Even if 80% of abortions where rape victims does that change the catholic teaching? I’m not trying to be rude I’m just honestly confused.

 

[minkymurph]

I’m am extremely confused on what is being argued here. is the point of this to try and justify abortion in the case of rape or are we discussing the flawed statistics. Even if 80% of abortions where rape victims does that change the catholic teaching? I’m not trying to be rude I’m just honestly confused.

Then let me be absolutely clear. My argument it is so unfair and unjust to place a woman who contemplates abortion as a consequence of rape in the same category as a woman who goes to a night club and becomes pregnant as a consequence of engaging in casual sex irrespective of the fact it may result in pregnancy while being fully aware of the fact it might. The reason I say that is because that seems to be the prevailing view, not in theory but in practice.

Let me also be clear I firmly believe I do not support the destruction of an innocent life in the womb because it is inconvenient. I talked to a friend of mine who is an atheist and while he approaches the abortion issue from a rights perspective, in that he believes he has no right to tell a woman she must continue with a pregnancy, he thinks abortion is conveyor belt murder in that it is now seen as a method of birth control.

I firmly believe God sees a difference between a woman taking the morning after pill because she was raped and a woman who has a clinical abortion because a child will interfere with her career and she is not prepared to take responsibility for her own actions. I don’t see how a God of love could not.

On this point, I would like to raise theological questions. As Catholics we are taught if God communes with a couple during sexual intercourse a child will result. Is that correct? Does God commune with a man and woman during the act of rape? If so, why? It is part of his great plan is not a good answer.

We are also taught as Catholics we do not know when God chooses to bestow a soul on a fertilized ovum. Why would God bestow a soul during the act of rape? Is sex merely a biological function in terms of producing a child? Not if we believe God bestows a soul on the child. But, does the physical act compel God to bestow a soul? The answer must be no. Is it at all possible He would choose not to?

Would a God of love and justice commune with a man and woman during the act of rape, and bestow a soul on the developing fetus irrespective of how the woman feels, and she should think God know best? As Catholics, is this the best we can do to support victims of rape? I say we need to better and we don’t. We hide behind the ‘its morally wrong’ and fail those who need us most. I say ‘we’ because I am Catholic, pro-life and do not divorce myself from this issue. I want our faith to offer victims of rape more than cold comfort.

 

[CatholicSoxFan]

minkymurph, it is ironic that you would bring up rape statistics when the thought experiment in the OP proves that it is immoral to abort a child in the case of rape. The breaking of the metal bars in the balcony above, and Tom leaning on the metal bars when they broke, were in no way in Steve’s control, yet it is still completely wrong for him to let Tom fall without trying to save him. You could tweak the thought experiment to address the issue of the trauma of rape easily; turn Steve into a woman, and rather than having Stephanie have to get to an important job interview, perhaps she instead got a call from a rapist who’d raped her before and said if she didn’t leave the apartment immediately to negotiate with him, he will find her and rape her again. Now clearly subjectively this would make it difficult for Stephanie to help Tom instead, but it is still her obligation to do so.

Furthermore, an abortion would go further than just letting Tom fall; an abortion is a direct killing of a human being.

Of course, it is a very difficult decision to choose life in a case of rape, and women who are in such an unfortunate situation should be prayed for fervently, but it is still their moral obligation to choose life.

 

[LoganBice]

Then let me be absolutely clear. My argument it is so unfair and unjust to place a woman who contemplates abortion as a consequence of rape in the same category as a woman who goes to a night club and becomes pregnant as a consequence of engaging in casual sex irrespective of the fact it may result in pregnancy while being fully aware of the fact it might. The reason I say that is because that seems to be the prevailing view, not in theory but in practice.

Let me also be clear I firmly believe I do not support the destruction of an innocent life in the womb because it is inconvenient. I talked to a friend of mine who is an atheist and while he approaches the abortion issue from a rights perspective, in that he believes he has no right to tell a woman she must continue with a pregnancy, he thinks abortion is conveyor belt murder in that it is now seen as a method of birth control.

I firmly believe God sees a difference between a woman taking the morning after pill because she was raped and a woman who has a clinical abortion because a child will interfere with her career and she is not prepared to take responsibility for her own actions. I don’t see how a God of love could not.

On this point, I would like to raise theological questions. As Catholics we are taught if God communes with a couple during sexual intercourse a child will result. Is that correct? Does God commune with a man and woman during the act of rape? If so, why? It is part of his great plan is not a good answer.

We are also taught as Catholics we do not know when God chooses to bestow a soul on a fertilized ovum. Why would God bestow a soul during the act of rape? Is sex merely a biological function in terms of producing a child? Not if we believe God bestows a soul on the child. But, does the physical act compel God to bestow a soul? The answer must be no. Is it at all possible He would choose not to?

Would a God of love and justice commune with a man and woman during the act of rape, and bestow a soul on the developing fetus irrespective of how the woman feels, and she should think God know best? As Catholics, is this the best we can do to support victims of rape? I say we need to better and we don’t. We hide behind the ‘its morally wrong’ and fail those who need us most. I say ‘we’ because I am Catholic, pro-life and do not divorce myself from this issue. I want our faith to offer victims of rape more than cold comfort.

I see thank you for the the clarification. You ask some very good questions! They are also deeply thought provoking! I don’t have an answer or response. I will leave this up to somone better versed in moral theology because I’m not the best at it. Very interesting points.

God Bless

 

[nodito]

Then let me be absolutely clear. My argument it is so unfair and unjust to place a woman who contemplates abortion as a consequence of rape in the same category as a woman who goes to a night club and becomes pregnant as a consequence of engaging in casual sex irrespective of the fact it may result in pregnancy while being fully aware of the fact it might. The reason I say that is because that seems to be the prevailing view, not in theory but in practice.

Let me also be clear I firmly believe I do not support the destruction of an innocent life in the womb because it is inconvenient. I talked to a friend of mine who is an atheist and while he approaches the abortion issue from a rights perspective, in that he believes he has no right to tell a woman she must continue with a pregnancy, he thinks abortion is conveyor belt murder in that it is now seen as a method of birth control.

I firmly believe God sees a difference between a woman taking the morning after pill because she was raped and a woman who has a clinical abortion because a child will interfere with her career and she is not prepared to take responsibility for her own actions. I don’t see how a God of love could not.

On this point, I would like to raise theological questions. As Catholics we are taught if God communes with a couple during sexual intercourse a child will result. Is that correct? Does God commune with a man and woman during the act of rape? If so, why? It is part of his great plan is not a good answer.

We are also taught as Catholics we do not know when God chooses to bestow a soul on a fertilized ovum. Why would God bestow a soul during the act of rape? Is sex merely a biological function in terms of producing a child? Not if we believe God bestows a soul on the child. But, does the physical act compel God to bestow a soul? The answer must be no. Is it at all possible He would choose not to?

Would a God of love and justice commune with a man and woman during the act of rape, and bestow a soul on the developing fetus irrespective of how the woman feels, and she should think God know best? As Catholics, is this the best we can do to support victims of rape? I say we need to better and we don’t. We hide behind the ‘its morally wrong’ and fail those who need us most. I say ‘we’ because I am Catholic, pro-life and do not divorce myself from this issue. I want our faith to offer victims of rape more than cold comfort.

Minkymurph,

I had been thinking (and still think) that the actual number of rapes is irrelevant to this particular thought experiment because if we agree that abortion (pushing Tom or letting him fall or whatever) is moral or immoral then we can extrapolate that to everyone who is in a similar situation. It’s sort of like if we were discussing that classic moral dilemma where someone’s on a runaway train and they can throw the lever to switch which group of people they hit and then someone interjects with, “Well, there are 2000 real train deaths every year.”

But it’s clear you feel strongly about this and I’m grateful for the concern and love you show for rape victims.

Regarding why God allows children to be conceived during rape, it’s because for most people throughout history, God chooses to work within the confines of our nature. Says the catechism of ensoulment:

The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

So when a child is conceived, that indicates that there is already a new soul that God has created. This is true regardless of how the child was conceived. So God creates a new life/soul for a husband and wife who may not really want or be ready for a child because they engaged in the practice that begets a child and He works within that nature. He bestows a soul on the child of a woman who got drunk and had sex in a bar and wants to abort, because He works within the nature he created, and it is in our nature to procreate through intercourse. He even works within our nature when doing so causes suffering: he does not (usually) alleviate the hunger experienced by famine victims or the pain experienced by burn victims, except through ordinary means like food and medication, even though he would be quite capable of doing so, because he works within our nature. And so likewise, it is biologically possible for women to conceive when they are raped and for scientists to conceive babies in test tubes and so God immediately ensouls these children because he works with our nature and not against it.

I agree that we need to offer constant compassion to rape victims and support them however we can, even or maybe especially, if they are offered the additional cross of bearing a child as a result of that act of violence. God bless.

 

[minkymurph]

Minkymurph,

I had been thinking (and still think) that the actual number of rapes is irrelevant to this particular thought experiment because if we agree that abortion (pushing Tom or letting him fall or whatever) is moral or immoral then we can extrapolate that to everyone who is in a similar situation. It’s sort of like if we were discussing that classic moral dilemma where someone’s on a runaway train and they can throw the lever to switch which group of people they hit and then someone interjects with, “Well, there are 2000 real train deaths every year.”

But it’s clear you feel strongly about this and I’m grateful for the concern and love you show for rape victims.

Regarding why God allows children to be conceived during rape, it’s because for most people throughout history, God chooses to work within the confines of our nature. Says the catechism of ensoulment:

So when a child is conceived, that indicates that there is already a new soul that God has created. This is true regardless of how the child was conceived. So God creates a new life/soul for a husband and wife who may not really want or be ready for a child because they engaged in the practice that begets a child and He works within that nature. He bestows a soul on the child of a woman who got drunk and had sex in a bar and wants to abort, because He works within the nature he created, and it is in our nature to procreate through intercourse. He even works within our nature when doing so causes suffering: he does not (usually) alleviate the hunger experienced by famine victims or the pain experienced by burn victims, except through ordinary means like food and medication, even though he would be quite capable of doing so, because he works within our nature. And so likewise, it is biologically possible for women to conceive when they are raped and for scientists to conceive babies in test tubes and so God immediately ensouls these children because he works with our nature and not against it.

I agree that we need to offer constant compassion to rape victims and support them however we can, even or maybe especially, if they are offered the additional cross of bearing a child as a result of that act of violence. God bless.

I want to thank you and Loganbice for your understanding and compassion. You have recognized I have no desire to endorse the destruction of an innocent child in the womb, but also feel great compassion for victims of rape.

I don’t have an answer to this question, but I feel we as Catholics are offering cold comfort to victims of rape and I think we should do better. It is so difficult because abortion is an highly emotive and politicized issue and as such, difficult to discuss rationally.

 

[LoganBice]

I want to thank you and Loganbice for your understanding and compassion. You have recognized I have no desire to endorse the destruction of an innocent child in the womb, but also feel great compassion for victims of rape.

I don’t have an answer to this question, but I feel we as Catholics are offering cold comfort to victims of rape and I think we should do better. It is so difficult because abortion is an highly emotive and politicized issue and as such, difficult to discuss rationally.

Very true! It also probably adds to their delimma and confusion when you have the secular world telling them to abort the child because that’s the best choice and then Christians telling them they are terrible sinners if they do. I think we need to try and approach their situations in a more comforting manner while still stressing the importance of giving the child life. It’s a very delicate situation and needs to be handled in a delicate way.

 

[minkymurph]

Very true! It also probably adds to their delimma and confusion when you have the secular world telling them to abort the child because that’s the best choice and then Christians telling them they are terrible sinners if they do. I think we need to try and approach their situations in a more comforting manner while still stressing the importance of giving the child life. It’s a very delicate situation and needs to be handled in a delicate way.

I think there are numerous problems and there is no quick fix.

There is no doubt women are told abortion is a best choice because it will interfere with their career or something. When did having a baby become a bad thing?

Like you say, others say what a terrible sinner you are if you don’t want a baby. A local radio station in my part of the world broadcast the story of one woman which was heartbreaking. She got married, found she was pregnant and delighted to be so, then told her baby had no brain. It would not live and it was unlikely the baby would go full term. She wanted an abortion, not because she did not want the baby. Abortion is illegal here and she went to England. She had to walk past anti-abortionists who called her for everything. Is that the best way we can deal with this? My heart went out to that woman and I feel our faith is offering her cold comfort and we need to do better in terms of offering them support.

 

[petra22]

To introduce some facts into the debate -

On average 85 000 women are raped in England and Wales each year.

It is standard procedure to offer victims of the crime of rape the morning after pill.

Just sayin’.

I may be living in lala land but I’m kinda shocked by these numbers… what the heck is going on over there?

 

[on_the_hill]

My argument it is so unfair and unjust to place a woman who contemplates abortion as a consequence of rape in the same category as a woman who goes to a night club and becomes pregnant as a consequence of engaging in casual sex

I don’t think the thread is putting women into categories.

In my simple way of seeing things, the question to be answered is: Does abortion end in death?

If the answer is yes, the next question is: Are we willing to accept abortion in certain circumstances?

And the answer is…

 

[minkymurph]

I may be living in lala land but I’m kinda shocked by these numbers… what the heck is going on over there?

The figure for the US is 90 000.

 

[Hans_W]

The figure for the US is 90 000.

A conservative estimate for South Africa is 500,000 cases a year. If questioned anonymously, 25% of men admitted that they had raped a woman, often more than once.

 

[Hans_W]

If the answer is yes, the next question is: Are we willing to accept abortion in certain circumstances?

And the answer is…

There was a similar thread on this forum which started end of May. I am sure you can find it. The question of permissible abortion was specifically addressed to a case in Brazil a couple of years ago.

In brief, the victim was a 9-year-old girl abused repeatedly by her stepfather. She complained about stomach pain, was taken to a hospital by her mother and was diagnosed as 15-week pregnant with twins. The child weighed 80 pounds (35 kg) and the doctors stated that her life was in danger. Her body, her uterus, was too small to support one baby, let alone two. Not a surprise diagnosis.

Anyway, the discussion went on for weeks on this forum. In the end I was the only one pleading for common sense and compassion for this poor 9-year old child. I was attacked by half a dozen posters telling me that I wasn’t a Catholic if I argue for an abortion, even in such extreme circumstances.

 

[minkymurph]

A conservative estimate for South Africa is 500,000 cases a year. If questioned anonymously, 25% of men admitted that they had raped a woman, often more than once.

Rape is rife in South Africa.

 

[on_the_hill]

I was attacked by half a dozen posters telling me that I wasn’t a Catholic if I argue for an abortion, even in such extreme circumstances.

I would not have argued against you.

 

[maryjk]

The figure for the US is 90 000.

The US has 316 million people.

England and Wales? 55 million.

And yet there are only 5,000 more rapes in the US than in England and Wales, combined. With almost 6 times the population.

Like petra22, I would love to know what the heck is going on over there.

But of course that is a topic for another thread.

 

[Milasol]

I believe that women who got pregnant due to a rape or incest is horrible. I also believe that it would be even more horrible for them to have an abortion. The life of the mother and child are of equal value to God. The life of the child is not less valuable to God than the mother’s life.

With that said, I work in a women crisis center and the cases of pregnancy due to rape are almost non-existent. Most women who come to us pregnant are teenagers who slept around. Most of them even used contraception and yet they got pregnant. And I’m talking about 98% of the crisis cases we handle.

In the entire country abortions due to rape account for less than 1%.
The staggering statistic is that 48% of abortions performed are performed on women who already had an abortion. We have other women in the late teens and early twenties who come to us but had already have a couple of abortions done.

Bottom line is that both lives are of equal value to God. We will not solve the situation of a rape victim by killing the child. If anything worsen her situation. Her salvation. It is not the baby the devil cares about, as the soul of the child he gains not, but the soul of the one killing the child is the one he is bargaining for.

Again, less than 1% of abortions are performed as a result of rape.

 

[Hans_W]

I believe that women who got pregnant due to a rape or incest is horrible. I also believe that it would be even more horrible for them to have an abortion. The life of the mother and child are of equal value to God. The life of the child is not less valuable to God than the mother’s life.

With that said, I work in a women crisis center and the cases of pregnancy due to rape are almost non-existent. Most women who come to us pregnant are teenagers who slept around. Most of them even used contraception and yet they got pregnant. And I’m talking about 98% of the crisis cases we handle.

In the entire country abortions due to rape account for less than 1%.
The staggering statistic is that 48% of abortions performed are performed on women who already had an abortion. We have other women in the late teens and early twenties who come to us but had already have a couple of abortions done.

Bottom line is that both lives are of equal value to God. We will not solve the situation of a rape victim by killing the child. If anything worsen her situation. Her salvation. It is not the baby the devil cares about, as the soul of the child he gains not, but the soul of the one killing the child is the one he is bargaining for.

Again, less than 1% of abortions are performed as a result of rape.

You are talking about your personal experience in one single crisis center in a first-world country.

Let’s look at it world-wide. If the estimated yearly rape cases in South Africa is 500,000, then the world-wide number must be in the tens of millions. If only 1% of those poor women get pregnant, that’s an awful lot of pregnancies due to rape. Many might be able to handle this traumatic experience and see it through for another 9 months without becoming a psychological wreck, but thousands of others won’t. I think that this problem needs to be addressed.