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carol_marie
Guest
Asking Planned Parenthood for reliable information on abortions is the equivilant of asking the Nazis during WWII for information about their gas chambers.
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themonk316
Guest
Quotes from Jack:
*The issue of fetal pain was addressed by a working group appointed by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in the United Kingdom. The panel consisted of experts in fetal development, law and bioethics. Dr. Anne McLaren headed the group.
The group determined that pain can only be felt by a fetus after nerve connections became established between two parts of its brain: the cortex and the thalamus. This happens about 26 weeks from conception. Professor Maria Fitzgerald of University College London, author of the working group’s report, says that “little sensory (name removed by moderator)ut” reaches the brain of the developing fetus before 26 weeks. “Therefore reactions to noxious stimuli cannot be interpreted as feeling or perceiving pain.” *
A further reason to doubt the viability of fetal pain post-26 weeks’ gestation is the development of the fetal cortex. Although the thalamocortical fibers penetrate the cortical plate at approximately 26 weeks’ gestation, the cortical regions that have been identified as important in processing the various components of pain (Derbyshire, 2000) do not become fully responsive until after birth (Chugani & Phelps, 1986).
Now, it seems to me that those medical experts say that the cerebral cortex is needed to process the “various components of pain.”
Radio Transcript
LIFE ISSUES NO. 2479
FETAL BABIES EXPERIENCE ABORTION PAIN
Here’s another new development from London, friends. A professor in research, Vivette Glover in London, has issued a clarion call which received a lot of publicity. She stated that, when performing abortions after four months, the fetal baby should be given an anesthetic first. She claims that thousands of the abortions done cause pain to the unborn child.
Professor Glover practices at Queen Charlotte and Chelsea Hospital in London and is chairing a conference at the Royal Institution. Needless to say, her statement has caused quite a stir in medical circles. She herself says, “I am pro-choice, but one should not muddle the choice to abort. If you’re going to do abortions, they should be done in a pain-free way.”
She states that aborted children have been heard to cry from 21 weeks. Well, that’s certainly true–they’ve been born and survived at 21 weeks. She also states that some doctors believe that such distress can be felt as early as three months. True enough. What she doesn’t state is that if you stick a pin into the palm or the face of a fetal baby who’s only eight weeks old, that baby will withdraw from this painful stimulus. Further, such a fetal baby will open her mouth as though she were crying. Of course, in a fluid medium, such as in the womb, a child could go through the physical process of crying but not produce any noise, for to produce sound, you need air going through vocal chords.
Not surprisingly, there were other voices who said that this lady was mistaken and that since the cortex, the higher centers of the brain, are not well developed until about six months, such younger babies could not feel pain. Well, that’s easily refuted by experience with anencephalic babies. These babies have no cortex. Such babies have been born and survived for periods of hours to days, and they have clearly shown that if you inflict a pain stimulus on an anencephalic baby, that little one will recoil from it and cry. You don’t need the cortex of your brain to feel pain.
In any case, this report from London is a good one. It’s causing quite a stir, and I’m sure we can all be pleased with this.
Pain can be both organic or physical and/or it can be psychological. A good example of organic pain is your finger on a hot burner. You pull it off before your conscious brain tells you to. Pain is psychological when you remember it or anticipate it.
Fetal babies feel organic pain as early as eight weeks. They obviously don’t experience psychological pain until considerably later.
[01/04/01]
cont…
*The issue of fetal pain was addressed by a working group appointed by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in the United Kingdom. The panel consisted of experts in fetal development, law and bioethics. Dr. Anne McLaren headed the group.
The group determined that pain can only be felt by a fetus after nerve connections became established between two parts of its brain: the cortex and the thalamus. This happens about 26 weeks from conception. Professor Maria Fitzgerald of University College London, author of the working group’s report, says that “little sensory (name removed by moderator)ut” reaches the brain of the developing fetus before 26 weeks. “Therefore reactions to noxious stimuli cannot be interpreted as feeling or perceiving pain.” *
A further reason to doubt the viability of fetal pain post-26 weeks’ gestation is the development of the fetal cortex. Although the thalamocortical fibers penetrate the cortical plate at approximately 26 weeks’ gestation, the cortical regions that have been identified as important in processing the various components of pain (Derbyshire, 2000) do not become fully responsive until after birth (Chugani & Phelps, 1986).
Now, it seems to me that those medical experts say that the cerebral cortex is needed to process the “various components of pain.”
Radio Transcript
LIFE ISSUES NO. 2479
FETAL BABIES EXPERIENCE ABORTION PAIN
Here’s another new development from London, friends. A professor in research, Vivette Glover in London, has issued a clarion call which received a lot of publicity. She stated that, when performing abortions after four months, the fetal baby should be given an anesthetic first. She claims that thousands of the abortions done cause pain to the unborn child.
Professor Glover practices at Queen Charlotte and Chelsea Hospital in London and is chairing a conference at the Royal Institution. Needless to say, her statement has caused quite a stir in medical circles. She herself says, “I am pro-choice, but one should not muddle the choice to abort. If you’re going to do abortions, they should be done in a pain-free way.”
She states that aborted children have been heard to cry from 21 weeks. Well, that’s certainly true–they’ve been born and survived at 21 weeks. She also states that some doctors believe that such distress can be felt as early as three months. True enough. What she doesn’t state is that if you stick a pin into the palm or the face of a fetal baby who’s only eight weeks old, that baby will withdraw from this painful stimulus. Further, such a fetal baby will open her mouth as though she were crying. Of course, in a fluid medium, such as in the womb, a child could go through the physical process of crying but not produce any noise, for to produce sound, you need air going through vocal chords.
Not surprisingly, there were other voices who said that this lady was mistaken and that since the cortex, the higher centers of the brain, are not well developed until about six months, such younger babies could not feel pain. Well, that’s easily refuted by experience with anencephalic babies. These babies have no cortex. Such babies have been born and survived for periods of hours to days, and they have clearly shown that if you inflict a pain stimulus on an anencephalic baby, that little one will recoil from it and cry. You don’t need the cortex of your brain to feel pain.
In any case, this report from London is a good one. It’s causing quite a stir, and I’m sure we can all be pleased with this.
Pain can be both organic or physical and/or it can be psychological. A good example of organic pain is your finger on a hot burner. You pull it off before your conscious brain tells you to. Pain is psychological when you remember it or anticipate it.
Fetal babies feel organic pain as early as eight weeks. They obviously don’t experience psychological pain until considerably later.
[01/04/01]
cont…
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themonk316
Guest
…cont.
The preceding was taken from lifeissues.org. Here is the link: lifeissues.org/radio/r2001/01/r2479.html
Now, with that all said and done, I think it is logical to conclude that if anencephalic babies who have no cortex can feel pain, surely a normal 8 - week old fetus can also.
themonk
The preceding was taken from lifeissues.org. Here is the link: lifeissues.org/radio/r2001/01/r2479.html
Now, with that all said and done, I think it is logical to conclude that if anencephalic babies who have no cortex can feel pain, surely a normal 8 - week old fetus can also.
themonk
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Jacksquat89
Guest
Where was the study that was done that shows that anencephalic babies react to painful stimulus? What parts of the brain have the anencephalic babies developed at the time of there birth?
Babies with anencephaly can be divided into two groups. The majority belong to a group without an active hypothalamohypophyseal system and are unresponsive to painful stimuli. The smaller group have a functioning hypothalamohypophyseal system and show some form of reaction to potentially painful stimuli.[4] This indicates that even in the absence of a functioning cortex individuals may have the capacity to make some response to noxious stimuli.
I need to know more about the anencephalic baby used in this article before I can further argue this point.
Also,
The simplest forms of reflex employ two nerves. The first passes from a receptor organ to the spinal cord and the second from the cord to an effector organ such as a muscle. Stimulating the first nerve always initiates an impulse in a second nerve and consequently results in the activation of the effector organ. An example of this is the ‘knee jerk’ reflex. Tapping the patella tendon stretches the muscles to which it is attached. This stretching is detected by receptors in the muscle and causes a signal to travel in a sensory nerve to the spinal cord. In the cord it initiates an impulse in a motor nerve that travels back to the quadriceps femoris muscle and causes it to contract. Hence striking the tendon causes the leg to jerk. It is important to note that this movement is not under any voluntary control.
Applied to pain, a noxious stimulus would cause a signal to be sent to the spinal cord via a sensory nerve. Once at the cord, this signal can simply be relayed to a muscle via a motor nerve. Thus the stimulus will result in an almost instant response. However in this case there is no involvement of the brain, so the person will not be aware of the stimulus or its response
Ergo noxious stimulus and the reaction does not mean that the fetus can feel pain or not.
All sources from
care.org.uk/resource/pub/fs/fs05.htm#5_2_1
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Shelby_Grace
Guest
Abortion is simply a blood sacrifice unto Satan in all circustances and all seasons. Some of the mothers just don’t know what they are doing at the time…but Satan receives this sacrifice with glee.
While some people think it is ok under hard cases when the baby is terminal anyway…it never can be ok. All the slick arguments and statistics are an exercise in futility. God speaks through the Church and He said, “No!” to abortion.
I lost a baby and one of the comforts I have is that God ordained my baby’s earthly beginning and his earthly end. Joseph Michael was a human being that only God got to know. I hope to meet him when I die! Surely God will let him know how much we all love him and miss him.
I wish Joseph could have been baptized! I think all those babies being “put down” in “mercy” killings would have wished they would have been allowed to be born JUST so they could receive this crucial eternally lasting Sacrament. We’d probably hear them say that they would accept any conditions as long as they could meet their parents and been held by them just once as they died…while the saving holy water was poured over their little head, mixing in with the tears of Mommy and Daddy.:crying:
Love in Jesus,
Shleby Grace
While some people think it is ok under hard cases when the baby is terminal anyway…it never can be ok. All the slick arguments and statistics are an exercise in futility. God speaks through the Church and He said, “No!” to abortion.
I lost a baby and one of the comforts I have is that God ordained my baby’s earthly beginning and his earthly end. Joseph Michael was a human being that only God got to know. I hope to meet him when I die! Surely God will let him know how much we all love him and miss him.
I wish Joseph could have been baptized! I think all those babies being “put down” in “mercy” killings would have wished they would have been allowed to be born JUST so they could receive this crucial eternally lasting Sacrament. We’d probably hear them say that they would accept any conditions as long as they could meet their parents and been held by them just once as they died…while the saving holy water was poured over their little head, mixing in with the tears of Mommy and Daddy.:crying:
Love in Jesus,
Shleby Grace
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Jacksquat89
Guest
carol marie:
I love the analogy.
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themonk316
Guest
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themonk316
Guest
I think I have shown earlier that there is a signal relayed to the brain, which then tells the muscles to act accordingly. An example of this would be your reflexes. A pin pricking your finger produces a sensation, then your brain processes that stimulus as “pain”, and then tells your the part of your brain that controls your muscles to recoil; to move you finger away from that which is causing pain. Here is proof from an earlier post:
*O.K., that is activity that can be observed, but is there other evidence of pain? After all, the fetal baby can’t tell us he hurts.
Pain can be detected when nociceptors (pain receptors) discharge electrical impulses to the spinal cord and brain. These fire impulses outward, telling the muscles and body to react. These can be measured. Mountcastle, Medical Physiology, St. Louis: C.V. Mosby, pp. 391-427 “Lip tactile response may be evoked by the end of the 7th week. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except for the back and the top of the head, are sensitive to pain.” S. Reinis & J. Goldman, The Development of the Brain C. Thomas Pub., 1980*
our reaction to pain is hardwired into our basic instincts. One of the most basic of these instincts is to preserve our life. Our ability to sense pain aids this instinct. As the study above shows, mature adults are not the only ones with this ability. Fetuses in the very early ages of developement have this ability also, to help protect their lives from anything which can harm them while in the womb, including the abortionists.
Another thing Jack, about “loving” carol marie’s analogy, I think it would be best for you to refrain from making such comments like that, as they incline people to make false assumptions about you. Yes, we all know what assuming does, but providing people a handle in making that assumption isnt smart either. Besides, Carol Marie does make a very good point. As we know, PP and the abortionists have an extreme Pro-Choice bias. I know, DUH!!
Anyway, I wouldn’t put anything past them.
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Tradcat89
Guest
For those of you who say that its OK to MURDER an INNOCENT BABY who happened to be born in unfourtunate circumstances, **HOW DARE YOU CALL YOURSELVES CATHOLICS AND PRO-LIFERS. **You can’t even follow basic Church principles.
If Jesus was in Mary’s womb with some deformation would you have her kill Him? Jesus says, “What you do unto the least of My brothren you do unto ME!” Go ahead, kill Christ. Kill baby Jesus and loose your salvation. For He is the person who gave you life in the first place!!! God help you and the doctors who goudge, slit, slice, and cause such brutality. By supporting abortion in certain circumstances you hold that knife. Or isn’t that a problem to you?
If Jesus was in Mary’s womb with some deformation would you have her kill Him? Jesus says, “What you do unto the least of My brothren you do unto ME!” Go ahead, kill Christ. Kill baby Jesus and loose your salvation. For He is the person who gave you life in the first place!!! God help you and the doctors who goudge, slit, slice, and cause such brutality. By supporting abortion in certain circumstances you hold that knife. Or isn’t that a problem to you?
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Jacksquat89
Guest
First off you haven’t shown me the study that was done that shows that anecephlic babies can feel pain. Your right a reaction is hardwired into us. But we do not have to feel to react to such stimuli. Yeah the first of your **sources **is right. The ***nociceptors ***can be measured once the reach the cortex. Because movement can’t come from the thalamus it doesn’t have any relex pathways. Second source is wrong with dates. These parts of the body cannot be sensative to touch because the stimuli cannot be sent to the cortex till later on in the pregnancy.
The thalami are relay-stations for all the sensory messages that enter the brain before they are transmitted to the cortex. Wrong, ergo he has a response to noxious stimuli. As stated in another source that does not mean that the fetus can feel pain.
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hydrochief
Guest
Do you personally know anyone who has had one?
Every year, as that “anniversary” approaches she is wrought with guilt, mourning and grieving for a good time after the date passes.
I know that she has been to Confession, but she can not give the pain up to God.
Abortion is bad on so many levels. And for a Catholic Christian those levels are multiplied. Please join in praying to an end of abortion; and pray that those who were led astray accept the forgiveness Christ promises.
Every year, as that “anniversary” approaches she is wrought with guilt, mourning and grieving for a good time after the date passes.
I know that she has been to Confession, but she can not give the pain up to God.
Abortion is bad on so many levels. And for a Catholic Christian those levels are multiplied. Please join in praying to an end of abortion; and pray that those who were led astray accept the forgiveness Christ promises.
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yochumjy
Guest
So, you are fully arguing that 26 weeks is the first time you can feel pain, even though I have shown that there is a problem with that. So, the thalamus is present, so the external stimuli can be detected by the thalamus region, correct? So, with the noxious stimuli, what is it that causes the motion of the child away from stated stimuli? Motion is proven, noxious stimuli is the (name removed by moderator)ut. The thalamus is present. What is it that you are arguing? Are you now on the side that says unless there is a fully developed nervous system, you can not feel pain?
WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF PAIN?
Does pain have to be exactly as you understand it? ie you feel a pain from a pinch? Your sources say that pain includes:
Statement by Dr. Paul Ranalli: … his belief that a fetus … can feel pain…a fetus will “withdraw from painful stimulation”
Pain has been described as a multidimensional phenomena for some time (Melzack & Casey, 1968), and this understanding is reflected in the current IASP definition of pain as “an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage” (Merskey, 1991).
Both talk about unpleasent sensory (name removed by moderator)ut, but the difference between YOUR (remember Jack, these are your quotes…) sources, the first says, if it is unpleasent (name removed by moderator)ut, you shy away from it, this is basic instincts. The second states that pain comes from that which will hurt you. Both of which most people will agree with. BUT, the second also implies that if you don’t actually have an understanding and be conscious of all that is happening it isn’t painful, which I find laughable. Are they saying that until a baby actually has the consious ability to recognize, say, a pincher pulling on it’s skin, it can not be called pain?
Again, in simple terms, how are you defining pain.
Oh, and Jack, you didn’t answer any of my last responses to you.
John
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Jacksquat89
Guest
NO the external stimuli does not have to be detected for a reaction to follow noxious stimuli. The thalami are relay-stations for all the sensory messages that enter the brain before they are transmitted to the cortex. As stated in another post
Applied to pain, a noxious stimulus would cause a signal to be sent to the spinal cord via a sensory nerve. Once at the cord, this signal can simply be relayed to a muscle via a motor nerve. Thus the stimulus will result in an almost instant response. However in this case there is no involvement of the brain, so the person will not be aware of the stimulus or its response
care.org.uk/resource/pub/fs/fs05.htm#5_2_1
The cortex must be developed before the fetus can FEEL pain. I could care less if the fetus pulls his had away as a simple motor response.
Well first my deifinition of pain can only work if the thing that I am talking about can feel at all. I think that it is a waste of time defining pain, because the fetus cannnot feel at all, let alone pain. As I have shown you time after time the fetus until the 26th week cannot feel. Ergo he/she cannot feel pain.WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF PAIN?
Does pain have to be exactly as you understand it? ie you feel a pain from a pinch? Your sources say that pain includes:
Statement by Dr. Paul Ranalli: … his belief that a fetus … can feel pain…a fetus will “withdraw from painful stimulation”
Pain has been described as a multidimensional phenomena for some time (Melzack & Casey, 1968), and this understanding is reflected in the current IASP definition of pain as “an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage” (Merskey, 1991).
Both talk about unpleasent sensory (name removed by moderator)ut, but the difference between YOUR (remember Jack, these are your quotes…) sources, the first says, if it is unpleasent (name removed by moderator)ut, you shy away from it, this is basic instincts. The second states that pain comes from that which will hurt you. Both of which most people will agree with. BUT, the second also implies that if you don’t actually have an understanding and be conscious of all that is happening it isn’t painful, which I find laughable. Are they saying that until a baby actually has the consious ability to recognize, say, a pincher pulling on it’s skin, it can not be called pain?
Again, in simple terms, how are you defining pain.
Oh, and Jack, you didn’t answer any of my last responses to you.
John
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PLAL
Guest
Jacksquat89,
Your argument its OK to murder a baby in the womb if it cannot feel pain is just ridiculous. Based on this belief, you would have to believe its OK to murder a 30-year old woman who is paralyzed head to toe and therefore cannot feel any pain.
Life begins at conception and all life is valuable. End of story.
Your argument its OK to murder a baby in the womb if it cannot feel pain is just ridiculous. Based on this belief, you would have to believe its OK to murder a 30-year old woman who is paralyzed head to toe and therefore cannot feel any pain.
Life begins at conception and all life is valuable. End of story.
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