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RomanRyan1088
Guest
dont worry, i don’t need your pity!!!
- Status
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wifeNmom.02
Guest
I have read through several of the previous posts and my blood boils! Here is a point that I want to make:
First and foremost *pain * is not the issue! If riping the arms and legs from the child tickles, would doing so cease to be so horrible? The life that GOD created has ended because one of *His creatures * decided they would take it for whatever reason …end of story!
This is how we should approach this issue…We are His creatures, He created us, Life is from God…he probably has a purpose for every life don’t you think? If He decides to let you in on that purpose thank him and be humbled and grateful that he should let Us in on His plan. For anone but God to decide that a life should be taken is like saying God I know that you have created me, but you know, although I am your creature I must say I know what my heart/mind is saying and frankly God this Life that you have created has to end because you know God you can’t create a baby that will suffer, I mean I know that you suffered and all but I just couldn’t “bear” the “pain” of seeing or thinking how much this child will suffer. That would just be too much for me and others to bear.
“GOD WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?” CREATING LIFE UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES? I mean I know that you are God and all but come on look what You did?
I call that satan, becareful he wants your soul,he will do anything to take it from The One who cast him into the abyss forever, he is the father of lies
Remember…To lay your life down for ones friend is the greatest love…If god said something is great to do wouldn’t you want to do it???
First and foremost *pain * is not the issue! If riping the arms and legs from the child tickles, would doing so cease to be so horrible? The life that GOD created has ended because one of *His creatures * decided they would take it for whatever reason …end of story!
This is how we should approach this issue…We are His creatures, He created us, Life is from God…he probably has a purpose for every life don’t you think? If He decides to let you in on that purpose thank him and be humbled and grateful that he should let Us in on His plan. For anone but God to decide that a life should be taken is like saying God I know that you have created me, but you know, although I am your creature I must say I know what my heart/mind is saying and frankly God this Life that you have created has to end because you know God you can’t create a baby that will suffer, I mean I know that you suffered and all but I just couldn’t “bear” the “pain” of seeing or thinking how much this child will suffer. That would just be too much for me and others to bear.
“GOD WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?” CREATING LIFE UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES? I mean I know that you are God and all but come on look what You did?
I call that satan, becareful he wants your soul,he will do anything to take it from The One who cast him into the abyss forever, he is the father of lies
Remember…To lay your life down for ones friend is the greatest love…If god said something is great to do wouldn’t you want to do it???
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triciafrancess
Guest
Dear Naphali,
You sound like a kind and tender-hearted person – someone who can’t stand to see people or animals suffer. I’m right there with you. BUT, it’s not up to us to end people’s suffering or to decide that a person, even an unborn baby, is better off dead than suffering.
We don’t know what God has in mind for people, but we do know through the suffering of our Lord that sometimes those who are the most innocent suffer the most. It’s just not up to us to play God.
Every baby has the right to be born and be baptized.
Love,
Tricia Frances
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AHMFan
Guest
I was going to vote “Abortion, what’s that???” to make a point that I can’t even consieve of it…It is so blantantly wrong…I have a hard time even saying the word…
I do have a short story to share for those who want to read…
Just yesturday, a friend and I volunteered at the Oregon Right to Life booth at our county fair… We were called at the last minute to do this… I was a little hesitant, partly because of the timing and needed to inform my husband…but mostly because I didn’t think I could handle it… How would I answer some of those tough questions? How would I react if someone was to attack my beliefs and start a confrantation right there? I was a little scared to be honest… Well I have to tell you, it was the most fulfilling night I have ever had… I was filled with the Holy Spirits gifts… I was calm, I had some great thoughts to share…I was greatly impressed with how many people stopped to share stories and ask questions, especially the # of young people…Pregnant teens… There was a young lady who stopped by with her mother. She got pregnant at 13 yrs old… I have never met anyone that young who actually had a baby… She kept the baby and has a second…I think she is in her early 20’s now…But she made the decision all her own, and you could tell she had no support except through her mother…(possibly her own family…not sure…) Could you imagine making that kind of a decision at that age…WOW!!
Her story had great impact on me, as did many others I heard that evening… And now, I have to say, I am not afraid to combat this issue anymore… I was always a “silent” member of ORTL…But now I am finding myself wanting to do more. I want to get more actively involved… To be honest with ya, I am excited to take on the challenge of fighting for what is right… To protect God’s commandement “Thou shall not kill”… I am not going to go out an protest…But I can help give information out… to educate, and support women who feel like they have to even make a decision like this…
Anyway…just wanted to share… God certainly shows you your path to take right at the very time you need it. Thank you dear Father in Heaven…
Tanya
I do have a short story to share for those who want to read…
Just yesturday, a friend and I volunteered at the Oregon Right to Life booth at our county fair… We were called at the last minute to do this… I was a little hesitant, partly because of the timing and needed to inform my husband…but mostly because I didn’t think I could handle it… How would I answer some of those tough questions? How would I react if someone was to attack my beliefs and start a confrantation right there? I was a little scared to be honest… Well I have to tell you, it was the most fulfilling night I have ever had… I was filled with the Holy Spirits gifts… I was calm, I had some great thoughts to share…I was greatly impressed with how many people stopped to share stories and ask questions, especially the # of young people…Pregnant teens… There was a young lady who stopped by with her mother. She got pregnant at 13 yrs old… I have never met anyone that young who actually had a baby… She kept the baby and has a second…I think she is in her early 20’s now…But she made the decision all her own, and you could tell she had no support except through her mother…(possibly her own family…not sure…) Could you imagine making that kind of a decision at that age…WOW!!
Her story had great impact on me, as did many others I heard that evening… And now, I have to say, I am not afraid to combat this issue anymore… I was always a “silent” member of ORTL…But now I am finding myself wanting to do more. I want to get more actively involved… To be honest with ya, I am excited to take on the challenge of fighting for what is right… To protect God’s commandement “Thou shall not kill”… I am not going to go out an protest…But I can help give information out… to educate, and support women who feel like they have to even make a decision like this…
Anyway…just wanted to share… God certainly shows you your path to take right at the very time you need it. Thank you dear Father in Heaven…
Tanya
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themonk316
Guest
Hmm…very interesting Jack. You’ve certainly kept yourself busy with this thread. 
Well, obviously there have been many misunderstandings surrounding this thread. I was hoping to clear things up for those concerned, as I happen to know Jack personally.
First of all, Jack is obviously a devoted Catholic, who respects and cares for what you have to say. Because of his beliefs, he knows that abortion is murder. Another thing is that over the summer he participated in a Debate Class, in which one of the main topics discussed was abortion. It was a requirement that the students collect data from both Pro- Life and Pro-Choice sources, and I recognized some of the latter in some of his postings. I commend Ethan on trying to shed light on the issue by bringing in both sides, but I must take issue with certain points made, the first of which being relevancy.
Now when I began reading this thread, I had no idea that it would turn into a debate on whether or not the fetus feels pain when it is being aborted. I thought it would be a place for people to express their opinions on abortion, whether or not they felt it was moral or immoral, that kinda thing. Whether or not the fetus feels pain is not even a choice in the initial poll, so it seems that your guys’ little debate within the main discussion has deviated from its original intention. Relevancy?
Another thing is the question itself. Now, it is maintained by Jack that in the early stages of the pregnancy the fetus is not developed enough that it would feel pain. It is also maintained that most babies are aborted during this time. Thus, one would logically conclude (according to what has thus been stated) that most aborted babies cannot feel that they are being aborted. Whether that conclusion would hold I leave to be explained, and so I must say that I have found statistics which seem to refute what you have just said. My source would be Abortionfacts.com, and they get their statistics from the CDC. Here I quote directly from cdc.gov: In 2000, for women whose weeks of gestation at the time of abortion were adequately reported, 57% of reported legal induced abortions were known to have been obtained at <8 weeks of gestation, and 87% at <13 weeks….For women whose type of procedure was adequately reported, almost all (97%) abortions were known to have been performed by curettage and 0.4% by intrauterine instillation. If you want to know what curettage is, here is a description of the procedure taken out of WHY CAN’T WE LOVE THEM BOTh by Dr. and Mrs. J.C. Willke - CHAPTER 18: WHAT KIND AND HOW?: *****Dilatation & Curettage (D&C): ***This is similar to the suction procedure except that the abortionist inserts a curette, a loop-shaped steel knife, up into the uterus. With this, he cuts the placenta and baby into pieces and scrapes them out into a basin. Bleeding is usually profuse. Now the same book says this about fetal pain (please read carefully - continued next post):
Well, obviously there have been many misunderstandings surrounding this thread. I was hoping to clear things up for those concerned, as I happen to know Jack personally.
First of all, Jack is obviously a devoted Catholic, who respects and cares for what you have to say. Because of his beliefs, he knows that abortion is murder. Another thing is that over the summer he participated in a Debate Class, in which one of the main topics discussed was abortion. It was a requirement that the students collect data from both Pro- Life and Pro-Choice sources, and I recognized some of the latter in some of his postings. I commend Ethan on trying to shed light on the issue by bringing in both sides, but I must take issue with certain points made, the first of which being relevancy.
Now when I began reading this thread, I had no idea that it would turn into a debate on whether or not the fetus feels pain when it is being aborted. I thought it would be a place for people to express their opinions on abortion, whether or not they felt it was moral or immoral, that kinda thing. Whether or not the fetus feels pain is not even a choice in the initial poll, so it seems that your guys’ little debate within the main discussion has deviated from its original intention. Relevancy?
Another thing is the question itself. Now, it is maintained by Jack that in the early stages of the pregnancy the fetus is not developed enough that it would feel pain. It is also maintained that most babies are aborted during this time. Thus, one would logically conclude (according to what has thus been stated) that most aborted babies cannot feel that they are being aborted. Whether that conclusion would hold I leave to be explained, and so I must say that I have found statistics which seem to refute what you have just said. My source would be Abortionfacts.com, and they get their statistics from the CDC. Here I quote directly from cdc.gov: In 2000, for women whose weeks of gestation at the time of abortion were adequately reported, 57% of reported legal induced abortions were known to have been obtained at <8 weeks of gestation, and 87% at <13 weeks….For women whose type of procedure was adequately reported, almost all (97%) abortions were known to have been performed by curettage and 0.4% by intrauterine instillation. If you want to know what curettage is, here is a description of the procedure taken out of WHY CAN’T WE LOVE THEM BOTh by Dr. and Mrs. J.C. Willke - CHAPTER 18: WHAT KIND AND HOW?: *****Dilatation & Curettage (D&C): ***This is similar to the suction procedure except that the abortionist inserts a curette, a loop-shaped steel knife, up into the uterus. With this, he cuts the placenta and baby into pieces and scrapes them out into a basin. Bleeding is usually profuse. Now the same book says this about fetal pain (please read carefully - continued next post):
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themonk316
Guest
**WHY CAN’T WE LOVE THEM BOTH by Dr. and Mrs. J.C. Willke **
CHAPTER 14
FETAL PAIN**
YES AND BY 8 WEEKS****
**By 8 weeks? Show me! **
By this age the neuro-anatomic structures are present. What is needed is (1) a sensory nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, a part of the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message to that area. These are present at 8 weeks. The pain impulse goes to the thalamus. It sends a signal down the motor nerves to pull away from the hurt.
Give an example.
Try sticking an infant with a pin and you know what happens. She opens her mouth to cry and also pulls away.
Try sticking an 8 week old human fetus in the palm of his hand. He opens his mouth and pulls his hand away.
A more technical description would add that changes in heart rate and fetal movement also suggest that intrauterine manipulations are painful to the fetus. Volman & Pearson, “What the Fetus Feels,” British Med. Journal, Jan. 26, 1980, pp. 233-234.
O.K., that is activity that can be observed, but is** there other evidence of pain? After all, the fetal baby can’t tell us he hurts.**
Pain can be detected when nociceptors (pain receptors) discharge electrical impulses to the spinal cord and brain. These fire impulses outward, telling the muscles and body to react. These can be measured. Mountcastle, Medical Physiology, St. Louis: C.V. Mosby, pp. 391-427 “Lip tactile response may be evoked by the end of the 7th week. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except for the back and the top of the head, are sensitive to pain.” S. Reinis & J. Goldman, *The Development of the Brain *C. Thomas Pub., 1980
CHAPTER 14
FETAL PAIN**
YES AND BY 8 WEEKS****
**By 8 weeks? Show me! **
By this age the neuro-anatomic structures are present. What is needed is (1) a sensory nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, a part of the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message to that area. These are present at 8 weeks. The pain impulse goes to the thalamus. It sends a signal down the motor nerves to pull away from the hurt.
Give an example.
Try sticking an infant with a pin and you know what happens. She opens her mouth to cry and also pulls away.
Try sticking an 8 week old human fetus in the palm of his hand. He opens his mouth and pulls his hand away.
A more technical description would add that changes in heart rate and fetal movement also suggest that intrauterine manipulations are painful to the fetus. Volman & Pearson, “What the Fetus Feels,” British Med. Journal, Jan. 26, 1980, pp. 233-234.
O.K., that is activity that can be observed, but is** there other evidence of pain? After all, the fetal baby can’t tell us he hurts.**
Pain can be detected when nociceptors (pain receptors) discharge electrical impulses to the spinal cord and brain. These fire impulses outward, telling the muscles and body to react. These can be measured. Mountcastle, Medical Physiology, St. Louis: C.V. Mosby, pp. 391-427 “Lip tactile response may be evoked by the end of the 7th week. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except for the back and the top of the head, are sensitive to pain.” S. Reinis & J. Goldman, *The Development of the Brain *C. Thomas Pub., 1980
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themonk316
Guest
**Give me more proof. **
In 1964 President Reagan said: “When the lives of the unborn are snuffed out, they often feel pain, pain that is long and agonizing.” President Ronald Reagan to National Religious Broadcasters, New York Times, Jan. 31, 1984
This provoked a public reaction from pro-abortion circles and a response from an auspicious group of professors, including pain specialists and two past presidents of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology.
They strongly backed Mr. Reagan and produced substantial documentation. Excerpts of their letter (2/13/84) to him included:
“Real time ultrasonography, fetoscopy, study of the fetal EKG (electrocardiogram) and fetal EEG (electroencephalogram) have demonstrated the remarkable responsiveness of the human fetus to pain, touch, and sound. That the fetus responds to changes in light intensity within the womb, to heat, to cold, and to taste (by altering the chemical nature of the fluid swallowed by the fetus) has been exquisitely documented in the pioneering work of the late Sir William Lily — the father of fetology.”
We state categorically that no finding of modern fetology invalidates the remarkable conclusion drawn after a lifetime of research by the late Professor Arnold Gesell of Yale University. In *The Embryology of Behavior: The Beginnings of the Human Mind *(1945, Harper Bros.), Dr. Gesell wrote, “and so by the close of the first trimester the fetus is a sentient, moving being. We need not speculate as to the nature of his psychic attributes, but we may assert that the organization of his psychosomatic self is well under way.”
Mr. President, in drawing attention to the capability of the human fetus to feel pain, you stand on firmly established ground. Willke, J & B, Abortion: Questions & Answers, Hayes, 1991, Chpt. 10
**What of The Silent Scream? **
A *Realtime *ultrasound video tape and movie of a 12- week suction abortion is commercially available as, The Silent Scream, narrated by Dr. B. Nathanson, a former abortionist. It dramatically, but factually, shows the pre-born baby dodging the suction instrument time after time, while its heartbeat doubles in rate. When finally caught, its body being dismembered, the baby’s mouth clearly opens wide — hence, the title (available from Heritage House '76 at http:www.heritagehouse76.com). Proabortionists have attempted to discredit this film. A well documented paper refuting their charges is available from National Right to Life, 419 7th St. NW, Washington, DC 20004, $2.00 p.p. A short, 10-minute video showing the testimony of the doctor who did the abortion in *Silent Scream *definitely debunks any criticism of *Silent Scream’s *accuracy. The Answer, Bernadel, Inc., P.O. Box 1897, Old Chelsea Station, New York, NY, 10011.
In 1964 President Reagan said: “When the lives of the unborn are snuffed out, they often feel pain, pain that is long and agonizing.” President Ronald Reagan to National Religious Broadcasters, New York Times, Jan. 31, 1984
This provoked a public reaction from pro-abortion circles and a response from an auspicious group of professors, including pain specialists and two past presidents of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology.
They strongly backed Mr. Reagan and produced substantial documentation. Excerpts of their letter (2/13/84) to him included:
“Real time ultrasonography, fetoscopy, study of the fetal EKG (electrocardiogram) and fetal EEG (electroencephalogram) have demonstrated the remarkable responsiveness of the human fetus to pain, touch, and sound. That the fetus responds to changes in light intensity within the womb, to heat, to cold, and to taste (by altering the chemical nature of the fluid swallowed by the fetus) has been exquisitely documented in the pioneering work of the late Sir William Lily — the father of fetology.”
We state categorically that no finding of modern fetology invalidates the remarkable conclusion drawn after a lifetime of research by the late Professor Arnold Gesell of Yale University. In *The Embryology of Behavior: The Beginnings of the Human Mind *(1945, Harper Bros.), Dr. Gesell wrote, “and so by the close of the first trimester the fetus is a sentient, moving being. We need not speculate as to the nature of his psychic attributes, but we may assert that the organization of his psychosomatic self is well under way.”
Mr. President, in drawing attention to the capability of the human fetus to feel pain, you stand on firmly established ground. Willke, J & B, Abortion: Questions & Answers, Hayes, 1991, Chpt. 10
**What of The Silent Scream? **
A *Realtime *ultrasound video tape and movie of a 12- week suction abortion is commercially available as, The Silent Scream, narrated by Dr. B. Nathanson, a former abortionist. It dramatically, but factually, shows the pre-born baby dodging the suction instrument time after time, while its heartbeat doubles in rate. When finally caught, its body being dismembered, the baby’s mouth clearly opens wide — hence, the title (available from Heritage House '76 at http:www.heritagehouse76.com). Proabortionists have attempted to discredit this film. A well documented paper refuting their charges is available from National Right to Life, 419 7th St. NW, Washington, DC 20004, $2.00 p.p. A short, 10-minute video showing the testimony of the doctor who did the abortion in *Silent Scream *definitely debunks any criticism of *Silent Scream’s *accuracy. The Answer, Bernadel, Inc., P.O. Box 1897, Old Chelsea Station, New York, NY, 10011.
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themonk316
Guest
**Pain? What of just comfort? **
“One of the most uncomfortable ledges that the unborn can encounter is his mother’s backbone. If he happens to be lying so that his own backbone is across hers [when the mother lies on her back], the unborn will wiggle around until he can get away from this highly disagreeable position.” M. Liley & B. Day, Modern Motherhood, Random House, 1969, p. 42
But isn’t pain mostly psychological?
There is also organic, or physiological pain which elicits a neurological response to pain. P. Lubeskind, “Psychology & Physiology of Pain,” Amer. Review Psychology, vol. 28, 1977, p. 42
But early on there is no cerebral cortex for thinking**, therefore no pain?**
The cortex isn’t needed to feel pain. The thalamus is needed and (see above) is functioning at 8 weeks. Even complete removal of the cortex does not eliminate the sensation of pain. “Indeed there seems to be little evidence that pain information reaches the sensory cortex.” Patton et al., Intro. to Basic Neurology, W. B. Saunders Co. 1976, p. 178
How about during an abortion?
This really hit the fan during the 1996 debate in the U.S. Congress over a law to ban partial birth abortions. Pro-abortionists had claimed that the anaesthetic had already killed the fetal baby. Top officials of the U.S.
Society for Obstetric Anaesthesia & Perinatology vigorously denied this explaining that usual anaesthesia did not harm the baby. D. Gianelli, Anaesthesiologists Question Claims in Abortion Debate, Am. Med. News, Jan. 1, ’96
This brought the issue of fetal pain into the news, and testimony was given to the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the U.S. House of Representatives.
"The fetus within this time frame of gestation, 20 weeks and beyond, is fully capable of experiencing pain. Without doubt a partial birth abortion is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant. *R. White, Dir. Neurosurgery & Brain Research, Case Western Univ. ***
Also, “Far from being less able to feel pain, such premature newborns may be more sensitive to pain”…that babies under 30 weeks have a “newly established pain system that is raw and unmodified at this tender age.” *P. Ranalli, Neuro. Dept., Univ. of Toronto *
Give me more research data.
Data in the British Medical Journal, Lancet, gave solid confirmation of such pain. It is known that the fetal umbilical cord has no pain receptors such as the rest of the fetal body. Accordingly, they tested fetal hormone stress response comparing puncturing of the abdomen and of the cord.
They observed “the fetus reacts to intrahepatic (liver) needling with vigorous body and breathing movements, but not to cord needling. The levels of these hormones did not vary with fetal age.” M. Fisk, et al., Fetal Plasma Cortisol and B-endorphin Response to Intrauterine Needling, Lancet, Vol. 344, July 9, 1994, Pg. 77
“One of the most uncomfortable ledges that the unborn can encounter is his mother’s backbone. If he happens to be lying so that his own backbone is across hers [when the mother lies on her back], the unborn will wiggle around until he can get away from this highly disagreeable position.” M. Liley & B. Day, Modern Motherhood, Random House, 1969, p. 42
But isn’t pain mostly psychological?
There is also organic, or physiological pain which elicits a neurological response to pain. P. Lubeskind, “Psychology & Physiology of Pain,” Amer. Review Psychology, vol. 28, 1977, p. 42
But early on there is no cerebral cortex for thinking**, therefore no pain?**
The cortex isn’t needed to feel pain. The thalamus is needed and (see above) is functioning at 8 weeks. Even complete removal of the cortex does not eliminate the sensation of pain. “Indeed there seems to be little evidence that pain information reaches the sensory cortex.” Patton et al., Intro. to Basic Neurology, W. B. Saunders Co. 1976, p. 178
How about during an abortion?
This really hit the fan during the 1996 debate in the U.S. Congress over a law to ban partial birth abortions. Pro-abortionists had claimed that the anaesthetic had already killed the fetal baby. Top officials of the U.S.
Society for Obstetric Anaesthesia & Perinatology vigorously denied this explaining that usual anaesthesia did not harm the baby. D. Gianelli, Anaesthesiologists Question Claims in Abortion Debate, Am. Med. News, Jan. 1, ’96
This brought the issue of fetal pain into the news, and testimony was given to the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the U.S. House of Representatives.
"The fetus within this time frame of gestation, 20 weeks and beyond, is fully capable of experiencing pain. Without doubt a partial birth abortion is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant. *R. White, Dir. Neurosurgery & Brain Research, Case Western Univ. ***
Also, “Far from being less able to feel pain, such premature newborns may be more sensitive to pain”…that babies under 30 weeks have a “newly established pain system that is raw and unmodified at this tender age.” *P. Ranalli, Neuro. Dept., Univ. of Toronto *
Give me more research data.
Data in the British Medical Journal, Lancet, gave solid confirmation of such pain. It is known that the fetal umbilical cord has no pain receptors such as the rest of the fetal body. Accordingly, they tested fetal hormone stress response comparing puncturing of the abdomen and of the cord.
They observed “the fetus reacts to intrahepatic (liver) needling with vigorous body and breathing movements, but not to cord needling. The levels of these hormones did not vary with fetal age.” M. Fisk, et al., Fetal Plasma Cortisol and B-endorphin Response to Intrauterine Needling, Lancet, Vol. 344, July 9, 1994, Pg. 77
T
themonk316
Guest
Another excellent British study commented on this:
“It cannot be comfortable for the fetus to have a scalp electrode implanted on his skin, to have blood taken from the scalp or to suffer the skull compression that may occur even with spontaneous delivery. It is hardly surprising that infants delivered by difficult forceps extraction act as if they have a severe headache.” Valman & Pearson, “What the Fetus Feels,” British Med. Jour., Jan. 26, 1980
Wow. That was really exhaustive. Anyway, according to this data, supported by various medical and government authorities, it would seem that even at 8 weeks, the fetus is capable of feeling pain. Now, according to the cdc.gov statistics, 87% of women have their abortions at or before 13 weeks. All the information above seems to contradict the data in posts # 43 & 44, which was reaffirmed by Jack in posts # 97 & 98 . What was said in post # 49 is also contradicted by this information. It seems that the statistics in these posts disprove, rather than prove, the point made earlier that the fetus cannot feel pain.
As a result of this exposition, I hope everything has been clarified concerning this issue. An important question concerning embryonic physiology and viabilty has been tackled here, and I hope, has been settled once and for all.
I don’t mean this to be personal, Jack. You of all people should know that. As you said, you merely wished to correct someone. I wished to do the same. Oh, btw, all copyright laws, legal stuff, etc., concerning my sources apply.
“It cannot be comfortable for the fetus to have a scalp electrode implanted on his skin, to have blood taken from the scalp or to suffer the skull compression that may occur even with spontaneous delivery. It is hardly surprising that infants delivered by difficult forceps extraction act as if they have a severe headache.” Valman & Pearson, “What the Fetus Feels,” British Med. Jour., Jan. 26, 1980
Wow. That was really exhaustive. Anyway, according to this data, supported by various medical and government authorities, it would seem that even at 8 weeks, the fetus is capable of feeling pain. Now, according to the cdc.gov statistics, 87% of women have their abortions at or before 13 weeks. All the information above seems to contradict the data in posts # 43 & 44, which was reaffirmed by Jack in posts # 97 & 98 . What was said in post # 49 is also contradicted by this information. It seems that the statistics in these posts disprove, rather than prove, the point made earlier that the fetus cannot feel pain.
As a result of this exposition, I hope everything has been clarified concerning this issue. An important question concerning embryonic physiology and viabilty has been tackled here, and I hope, has been settled once and for all.
I don’t mean this to be personal, Jack. You of all people should know that. As you said, you merely wished to correct someone. I wished to do the same. Oh, btw, all copyright laws, legal stuff, etc., concerning my sources apply.
C
Charlemagne
Guest
You don’t think the baby should be allowed to be born, and then immediately Baptized? As far as “sacrificing” a child, no human has a “right” to do that. We as a people need to get away from the belief that we ar “imposing our beliefs on others.” I can’t have separate beliefs - religious and secular/political. The way I live my life is based on my Catholic religious beliefs. I don’t care what the world thinks of me. Remember - Jesus said to Peter: “Before the cock crows, you will deny me three times.” Isn’t that what we as a people are doing when we say, “I’m personally opposed to abortion, but…”
P
ProLifeAction
Guest
themonk316 said:
Thank You. I posted this information for Jack on post# 93 as well as the Silent Scream video earlier but he refuses to look at it. It looks like he rather get all his information from Planned Parenthood.
J
Jacksquat89
Guest
Well I was talking to prolife, but you can have my pity also.
J
Jacksquat89
Guest
Yes I did not look at the silent scream video, but not because I didn’t want to. It was because I was forbade to. The website I have already seen before you had shown it to me. In fact it was one of the first web sites that I found when I was studying abortion.
Now are we are done with this arguement are do you want to continue.
Oh yeah, J… cough Monk dude we allready saw that stuff didn’t we see him post that website. Yeah I have been keeping myself busy with this, but it was on the stupidest argument. Prolife just keeps goin at it.
Source:pregnancy-calendar.adoption.com/first-trimester/week-13.html
Week 13
This begins the three-month period (second trimester)
Source:cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/surv_abort00.htm
As in previous years, more than half (58 percent) of reported legal induced abortions were performed during the first 8 weeks of pregnancy; 88 percent were performed during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.
Source: The Abortion Handbook
The fetus cannot feel pain, since it does not have a developed brain at that time. The brains develops to it’s full potential at the close of the gestational period. It is not fully developed until shortly before the the final stages prior to birth. Even if Nathans fetus had a brain, it would not be able to feel pain since it could not be fully developed within the twelve weeks of human gestation. This is because well formed nerve ending/fibers which can transmit pain impulses along the spinal cord to the brain and chemical neurotransmitters capable of carrying the signal form the neuron to neruon indicating pain or the presence of discomfuture are not developed and the neural pathways which transmit the pain impulses are not mature enough to function until mid pregnancy or later. There is no record of neurological development in a fetus in the first trimester.
Ergo the fetus cannot feel pain when most abortions are administered. See not a single one from Planned Parenthood.:dancing:
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Jacksquat89
Guest
Justin you want more?
religioustolerance.org/abo_pain.htm
The issue of fetal pain was addressed by a working group appointed by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in the United Kingdom. The panel consisted of experts in fetal development, law and bioethics. Dr. Anne McLaren headed the group. She commented: "Fetal awareness of pain is a very emotive topic, of particular concern to pregnant women, but we have tried to approach it without preconceptions, to examine the scientific evidence dispassionately, and to identify areas where further research is urgently needed.’’
The group determined that pain can only be felt by a fetus after nerve connections became established between two parts of its brain: the cortex and the thalamus. This happens about 26 weeks from conception. Professor Maria Fitzgerald of University College London, author of the working group’s report, says that “little sensory (name removed by moderator)ut” reaches the brain of the developing fetus before 26 weeks. “Therefore reactions to noxious stimuli cannot be interpreted as feeling or perceiving pain.”
Statement by Dr. Paul Ranalli:
Dr. Ranalli is a neurologist at the University of Toronto, in Toronto Canada. He is acting president of the de Veber Institute for Bioethics and Social Research. He gave a presentation called “Pain, Fetal Development, and Partial-birth abortion” on 1997-JUN-27 to the* House Judiciary Committee of the State of Ohio*.** 2,3** He has concluded that the “spino-thalamic” system is fully developed at about 12 to 14 weeks of gestation. This is the system that conveys pain signals from pain receptors throughout the body to the thalamus. He apparently believes that the thalamus can feel pain, even though a connection between it and the cortex is missing.
To support his belief that a fetus in the second trimester can feel pain, he cites three signs:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gifa fetus will "withdraw from painful stimulation"http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.giftwo types of stress hormones which are detected in adults who are feeling pain are also found in a fetus from when a blood sample is withdrawn. He quotes: http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul2d.gifNicholas Fisk of London, England who observed this reaction as early as 19 weeks 4, andhttp://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul2d.gifJ Partch of Kiel, Germany who observed it at 16 weeks.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topruled.gif
Statement by Vivette Glover:
Professor Glover of Queen Charlotte and Chelsea hospitals in London, UK, believes that there is a possibility that a fetus aged 18 weeks can feel pain. On 2000-AUG, she recommended that late pregnancy terminations be done under anesthetic. She suspects that the fetus would not respond to sensations in the same way as newborns. It is unlikely to produce the feelings of anxiety that people have.
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Jacksquat89
Guest
ContinuedJustin you want more?
Same source as before
Dr. Anandwould is a pediatrician who specializes in the care of newborns and children. He has conducted research over the past two decades to study whether a fetus can sense of pain by a fetus. He concludes that a fetus at 20 weeks of gestation may be able to feel pain.
California: A bill was introduced to the Health Committee of the California Assembly on 1998-MAY-5. It would have required that pain medication be used to anesthetize the fetus during any late-term pregnancy terminations. 9 The cutoff age the start of the third trimester; after this gestational age, anesthetics would be compulsory during any hysterotomy or D & X procedure. The intent of the legislation was to make certain that the fetus did not feel pain. The bill was rejected by the committee.
Texas: State Representative Leo Berman, (R-Tyler) introduced a bill "HB 569, The Fetal Pain Protection Act, which would require that women choosing to have an pregnancy termination first be told that fetuses can feel pain. They would also be given the option to have anesthetic administered to the fetus before the procedure. This would apply to fetus which are 20 weeks or older. Berman presented his bill to the House State Affairs Committee on 2003-APR-7. He noted that anesthesia is given prior to many dental procedures, and to and to inmates before being executed. He feels that fetuses should receive the same option. 12
**US Federal law: **Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS) and Representative Chris Smith (R-NJ) introduced a bill to the Senate and House during 2004-MAY called the “Unborn Child Pain Awareness Act.” It would required abortion providers to inform women who are about to receive a late-term abortion that her fetus can feel pain. It would also give the woman the opportunity to have pain control medication administered to the fetus before the abortion. This would affect fewer than 1% of all abortions – those performed at 20 weeks or later gestation. The bill is supported by a number of pro-life conservative Christian groups: the Southern Baptist Convention, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, the National Right to Life Committee and the Family Research Council.
Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council said: “We cannot deny the medical evidence now before us. From testimony taken during the recent partial-birth abortion hearings and advancements in the field of in utero technology, science is telling us unborn children as young as 20 weeks old can feel pain. The evidence we have is clear, and we should not keep that evidence from women.”
The cutoff date of 20 weeks gestation is significantly earlier in pregnancy than the 26 weeks that most medical researchers feel that fetuses can feel pain. However, it is far later than the seven weeks that some pro-life groups had been promoting as the fetal age when pain can be felt.
Just offering some correction.
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themonk316
Guest
I don’t think it necessary to repeat what was said in my earlier threads. Looking up Jack’s sources: religioustolerance.org/abo_pain.htm, I also saw basically the POV of my earlier posts. Here it is, and I quote:Others, who tend to be pro-life advocates, believe that a fetus as early as 7 weeks after conception can feel pain. Thus, they believe that a fetus can feel pain part way through the first trimester, when most abortions are performed. The site also goes on to say: It would appear that some of the experts’ opinions are so heavily biased by their pro-life/pro-choice stance that they are incapable of making objective observations. Now it seems that “pro-life advocates” believe one thing about fetal pain, and “pro-choice advocates” believe another. And please dont jump to the conclusion that I am “categorizing” people. I simply want to show how limited the reaches of science are. The scientific studies done by both sides have been performed by imperfect human beings, who are naturally flawed in their mental capacities because of the Fall. Thus, the data they collect is flawed. And thus, the scientific “conclusions” they come up with are also flawed. In the end, science cannot ultimately prove anything, including when and whether a fetus feels pain. Ultimately, God knows the answer to that question, and it would be better off for everyone, myself included, to leave these questions up to the One who can ultimately answer them, and focus on what us mere mortals can do, which is pray. Sorry for taking up some much of your time and space.
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yochumjy
Guest
Jack,
You appear to be reading only dates and not looking at your information from a higher level. And, it appears your only looking to win an argument for arguments sake, but I will ignore that for the moment. Lets look at your data and see where it really takes us, shall we? (some elements cut for space)
Jacksquat89:
Now, let us take into account that most people don’t actually know the conception date, let’s say maybe they can guess within a week period (if they use NFP, they can probably do a little better). So, 88% of abortions are in the first 12 weeks (30%, apparently from 8-12 weeks), but as early as 12 weeks YOUR sources say pain might be felt. Now add in a 1 week uncertainty. So, up to 30% of abortions might include pain to the fetus by YOUR sources. I am by the way completely disregarding the whole list of laws that talk about 20 weeks, because their testimony is hearsay at best, there are no sources for their beliefs.
Let’s continue with evidence from YOUR sources and apply them to other sources, shall we?
Statement by Dr. Paul Ranalli: … his belief that a fetus … can feel pain…a fetus will "withdraw from painful stimulation"
So, one sign by Dr Ranalli says that withdrawel is a sign of fetal pain. The silent scream video shows this response at the 12 week period. themonk, gave evidance that says this occurs at 8 weeks (although I haven’t verified this with the journal he gave, I’ll take him at his word, just as I’ve take your sources at their word)
So, none of your experts agree, in fact using one of your experts statements, he apparently agrees that first trimester babies can feel pain. Again, this type of data should throw up a caution flag. The experts you use to defend your statement can’t even agree, why in the world should we accept their opinion in light of all the rest of the evidence given to you on this thread.
Just look at the data scientifically as a WHOLE, then you and your “buddies” can make a better decision.
John
You appear to be reading only dates and not looking at your information from a higher level. And, it appears your only looking to win an argument for arguments sake, but I will ignore that for the moment. Lets look at your data and see where it really takes us, shall we? (some elements cut for space)
Note the bold unlikely/suspects. So, basically, none of your sources agree. In fact your argument for fetuses not feeling pain is currently somewhere in the 12-26 week timeframe. Don’t you find that disconcerting? Doesn’t that make you stop and think, hey, what is going on?
Now, let us take into account that most people don’t actually know the conception date, let’s say maybe they can guess within a week period (if they use NFP, they can probably do a little better). So, 88% of abortions are in the first 12 weeks (30%, apparently from 8-12 weeks), but as early as 12 weeks YOUR sources say pain might be felt. Now add in a 1 week uncertainty. So, up to 30% of abortions might include pain to the fetus by YOUR sources. I am by the way completely disregarding the whole list of laws that talk about 20 weeks, because their testimony is hearsay at best, there are no sources for their beliefs.
Let’s continue with evidence from YOUR sources and apply them to other sources, shall we?
Statement by Dr. Paul Ranalli: … his belief that a fetus … can feel pain…a fetus will "withdraw from painful stimulation"
So, one sign by Dr Ranalli says that withdrawel is a sign of fetal pain. The silent scream video shows this response at the 12 week period. themonk, gave evidance that says this occurs at 8 weeks (although I haven’t verified this with the journal he gave, I’ll take him at his word, just as I’ve take your sources at their word)
So, none of your experts agree, in fact using one of your experts statements, he apparently agrees that first trimester babies can feel pain. Again, this type of data should throw up a caution flag. The experts you use to defend your statement can’t even agree, why in the world should we accept their opinion in light of all the rest of the evidence given to you on this thread.
Just look at the data scientifically as a WHOLE, then you and your “buddies” can make a better decision.
John
J
Jacksquat89
Guest
Sorry, but I am going to have to agree with the monk. There really is no way to find out whether or not the fetus feels pain because all of the opinions given are slanted one way or another. Both sides try to make it seem as though they are right so there really is no way for us to find out. The only way that this would be possible is if you find a neither pro-life nor pro-choice source. Which because those are the only two groups that you are going to find this information from, I think that is immpossible. So I guess that one is over so what is next. Oh yeah. John nice job.
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Jacksquat89
Guest
Who are my “buddies”?:ehh:
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yochumjy
Guest
My appologies, Jack,
I have been skimming over a bunch of the posts, and it was the Barrister who said you had buddies. DOH! It appears I’ve attributed it to you falsely. I’ll try to keep up next time, promise!
- Status