Abortion?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jacksquat89
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
quote from yochumjy:

So, one sign by Dr Ranalli says that withdrawel is a sign of fetal pain. The silent scream video shows this response at the 12 week period. themonk, gave evidance that says this occurs at 8 weeks (although I haven’t verified this with the journal he gave, I’ll take him at his word, just as I’ve take your sources at their word)

to verify my sources, here is a link: abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_14.asp
 
40.png
themonk316:
quote from yochumjy:
(although I haven’t verified this with the journal he gave, I’ll take him at his word, just as I’ve take your sources at their word)
to verify my sources, here is a link: abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_14.asp

Thanks for the link. BTW, I fully agree with you monk, I wasn’t questioning you, but I was trying to get a point across about Jack’s data that I saw an issue with. That and I didn’t want to take the time to verify everything, there is a LOT of stuff here. Good work, though on all your info and sources, they are very good to have at hand.

Thanks, again,
 
Sorry, I don’t buy the “Jack is obviously a devoted Catholic” statement. He’s done nothing but quote from Planned Parenthood and other “pro-abortion” sources and, either implicitly or explicitly, advocated for abortion.

Hence, my reference to “his buddies.” He’s got enough of them on this board who would agree with him.

The truth is as the Monk set out - unborn babies as early as 8 weeks gestation are capable of feeling pain. While the majority of abortions are within the first 13 weeks of gestation, the vast majority of those are performed after 8 weeks.

Thus, the vast majority of unborn babies being sliced and diced feel pain until they die.

Until. They. Die.
 
40.png
themonk316:
So, monk, I’m not going to get picky, but if someone wants to really pick at this site…I see they say if you poke a pin in an 8 week old ithe child will pull away, but how and when did they test it? They say it as a statement of fact, as if they tested it. Is there a journal that posted this. I only ask because you have probably been over the site and might know if they document that somewhere else, besides the page you posted.

And remember, I’m on your side! 🙂

John
 
The Barrister:
Sorry, I don’t buy the “Jack is obviously a devoted Catholic” statement. He’s done nothing but quote from Planned Parenthood and other “pro-abortion” sources and, either implicitly or explicitly, advocated for abortion.

Hence, my reference to “his buddies.” He’s got enough of them on this board who would agree with him.

The truth is as the Monk set out - unborn babies as early as 8 weeks gestation are capable of feeling pain. While the majority of abortions are within the first 13 weeks of gestation, the vast majority of those are performed after 8 weeks.

Thus, the vast majority of unborn babies being sliced and diced feel pain until they die.

Until. They. Die.
Barrister,

I admire your posting most of the time, but step back and take a breath. Jack was, I believe, trying to win a debate about pain. He read sources and used them for his argument. I do not know his ulterior motives, or if he has them. Maybe he is trying to give the pro-abortion people ammo, maybe he is trying to insert some doubt into believers, or maybe he is a 15 year old debating an opinion. I believe he did mention that he debated against abortion in an early post, maybe he is honing his skill by being devil’s advocate (and at times using blinders while arguing his point). The one thing on this board that I’ve noticed, is people sometimes loose some charity in the heat of debate. Jesus did a good job of correcting people without himself getting to hot under the collar. (okay, minus the throwing the money changers out of the temple). We are also called to love as Jesus loved. Hard to follow, but IMHO worth it.

Look forward to more of your posts.
 
40.png
yochumjy:
Jack,

You appear to be reading only dates and not looking at your information from a higher level. And, it appears your only looking to win an argument for arguments sake, but I will ignore that for the moment. Lets look at your data and see where it really takes us, shall we? (some elements cut for space)

Note the bold unlikely/suspects. So, basically, none of your sources agree. In fact your argument for fetuses not feeling pain is currently somewhere in the 12-26 week timeframe. Don’t you find that disconcerting? Doesn’t that make you stop and think, hey, what is going on?

Now, let us take into account that most people don’t actually know the conception date, let’s say maybe they can guess within a week period (if they use NFP, they can probably do a little better). So, 88% of abortions are in the first 12 weeks (30%, apparently from 8-12 weeks), but as early as 12 weeks YOUR sources say pain might be felt. Now add in a 1 week uncertainty. So, up to 30% of abortions might include pain to the fetus by YOUR sources. I am by the way completely disregarding the whole list of laws that talk about 20 weeks, because their testimony is hearsay at best, there are no sources for their beliefs.

Let’s continue with evidence from YOUR sources and apply them to other sources, shall we?
Statement by Dr. Paul Ranalli: … his belief that a fetus … can feel pain…a fetus will "withdraw from painful stimulation"

So, one sign by Dr Ranalli says that withdrawel is a sign of fetal pain. The silent scream video shows this response at the 12 week period. themonk, gave evidance that says this occurs at 8 weeks (although I haven’t verified this with the journal he gave, I’ll take him at his word, just as I’ve take your sources at their word)

So, none of your experts agree, in fact using one of your experts statements, he apparently agrees that first trimester babies can feel pain. Again, this type of data should throw up a caution flag. The experts you use to defend your statement can’t even agree, why in the world should we accept their opinion in light of all the rest of the evidence given to you on this thread.

Just look at the data scientifically as a WHOLE, then you and your “buddies” can make a better decision.

John
I am trying to show you that the majority of studies that have been done show that the fetus does not feel pain until weeks after the first trimester. The only study that I have been shown that shows that the fetus can feel pain in the first trimester is the one taken from British Med. Journal, Jan. 26, 1980, pp. 233-234. I have seen many other studies that say otherwise. Now should I base my decision on one study or many studies?

Now I have been searching the internet to try and find another study other than the Briish Journal, but I still have not been able to locate one. Could you help me out with that?
 
40.png
Jacksquat89:
I am trying to show you that the majority of studies that have been done show that the fetus does not feel pain until weeks after the first trimester. The only study that I have been shown that shows that the fetus can feel pain in the first trimester is the one taken from British Med. Journal, Jan. 26, 1980, pp. 233-234. I have seen many other studies that say otherwise. Now should I base my decision on one study or many studies?

Now I have been searching the internet to try and find another study other than the Briish Journal, but I still have not been able to locate one. Could you help me out with that?
Oops, sorry:o disregard that I think we are done with this.
 
40.png
yochumjy:
Barrister,

I admire your posting most of the time, but step back and take a breath. Jack was, I believe, trying to win a debate about pain. He read sources and used them for his argument. I do not know his ulterior motives, or if he has them. Maybe he is trying to give the pro-abortion people ammo, maybe he is trying to insert some doubt into believers, or maybe he is a 15 year old debating an opinion. I believe he did mention that he debated against abortion in an early post, maybe he is honing his skill by being devil’s advocate.
Arguing that a fetus cannot feel pain in the first trimester does not mean that I am arguing the pro-choice side. As I posted earlier only some pro-life groups even think that the fetus can feel pain in the first trimester. As I said before abortion is wrong but we need to get our facts straight. Even if the fetus cannot feel pain it doesn’t mean that he/she can be killed, and I definitly never said that(me my words never said that).
 
The Barrister:
Sorry, I don’t buy the “Jack is obviously a devoted Catholic” statement. He’s done nothing but quote from Planned Parenthood and other “pro-abortion” sources and, either implicitly or explicitly, advocated for abortion.

Hence, my reference to “his buddies.” He’s got enough of them on this board who would agree with him.

The truth is as the Monk set out - unborn babies as early as 8 weeks gestation are capable of feeling pain. While the majority of abortions are within the first 13 weeks of gestation, the vast majority of those are performed after 8 weeks.

Thus, the vast majority of unborn babies being sliced and diced feel pain until they die.

Until. They. Die.
Can you show me where it says in the churchs teaching that I have to believe that a fetus can feel pain in the first trimester? Or that I cannot sight pro-choice oh sorry pro-abortion sources. As I said before if they give me the information that I need then I will use it. As I recall(correct me if im wrong) the only reason I used I planned parenthood source was to show that most abortions are done in the first trimester. And who would know better than the abortion prodivders/supporters themselves.
 
In response to what Barrister has said earlier about doubting that Jack was a “devout Catholic”…nothing Jack has said can prove his else-wise. Just because he quotes sources from “the other side” does not make him evil or “less Catholic.” In fact it makes him even more Catholic; he is knowledgeable by looking at various facts, not just biased ones. Then he can formulate his opinion; which personally I know is Catholic. A “shout-out” to themonk (Justin) pretty sure I know ya:-) Good job guys with your debate…you have obviously made some good points in this “5-star” thread. Later dudes
-oh yeah i guess you could call me “a buddy”…lol:-)

Tracy
 
40.png
Jacksquat89:
Can you show me where it says in the churchs teaching that I have to believe that a fetus can feel pain in the first trimester? Or that I cannot sight pro-choice oh sorry pro-abortion sources. As I said before if they give me the information that I need then I will use it. As I recall(correct me if im wrong) the only reason I used I planned parenthood source was to show that most abortions are done in the first trimester. And who would know better than the abortion prodivders/supporters themselves.
  1. The studies you cite on fetal pain did not attempt to discern the issue to the degree of the BMJ, as best I can tell, so to accept biased studies over the unbiased medical study is improper.
  2. Know your source. Citing to sources from the abortionist community is suspect.
  3. The PP source on abortions is misleading for the point you are apparently trying to make. When you say that the majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester, folks reading this get the impression that the abortions are evenly distributed throughout the 13 week period. They are not. By the time the woman even suspects she is pregnant at least 2 or more weeks have passed. By the time she gets tested at home, verifies the test with her doctor, and makes arrangements to obtain an abortion, many more weeks have passed. Even if she gets to the clinic within 4-6 weeks, most abortion doctors PREFER to wait until at least 8 weeks. Ergo, between 50% to most of those “first-trimester” abortions occur in the last third or fourth of the trimester.
After a baby can feel pain.

But I think we can all acknowledge that pain is a red herring. Taking a life under anesthesia is still murder.

Jack, you’re a good debator. If you are pro-life, take the side of life.
 
40.png
Jacksquat89:
I am trying to show you that the majority of studies that have been done show that the fetus does not feel pain until weeks after the first trimester. The only study that I have been shown that shows that the fetus can feel pain in the first trimester is the one taken from British Med. Journal, Jan. 26, 1980, pp. 233-234. I have seen many other studies that say otherwise. Now should I base my decision on one study or many studies?

Now I have been searching the internet to try and find another study other than the Briish Journal, but I still have not been able to locate one. Could you help me out with that?
That was not my point and you know it, Jack. You are putting forward arguments that don’t add up when you look at the pain issue. The more diversity you find, the less you can corrolate. The “experts” can’t even agree exactly what “pain” is. Pain can only come from this fully functional nerve, or pain doesn’t need that nerve and on and on. Many of the arguments stem from the basis that you need something fully functional to truly have pain. What kind of bull is that. Just because a brain isn’t fully functional from one respect doesn’t mean that partial functionality isn’t at work. The child in the womb develops stage by stage, gradually forming the child that exits the mother. Scientists have shown that as early as 7 weeks, the child is moving. Brain waves have been shown at 6 weeks.

Then you have those that don’t care about pain. “Well, if the fetus (child) feels pain, drug them” then they think they can kill them" Nice and humanitarian of them.

You can argue pain all you want, but in the end it doesn’t matter. What matters is that human life should be protected at all times, from conception to natural death.

And, sorry, I don’t have time to help you track down sources. Good luck.

John
 
40.png
Jacksquat89:
Oops, sorry:o disregard that I think we are done with this.
Ahhh, and I already posted. Actually, I was replying and got busy, so you posted this first. Oh, well.

John
 
40.png
yochumjy:
That was not my point and you know it, Jack. You are putting forward arguments that don’t add up when you look at the pain issue. The more diversity you find, the less you can corrolate. The “experts” can’t even agree exactly what “pain” is. Pain can only come from this fully functional nerve, or pain doesn’t need that nerve and on and on. Many of the arguments stem from the basis that you need something fully functional to truly have pain. What kind of bull is that. Just because a brain isn’t fully functional from one respect doesn’t mean that partial functionality isn’t at work. The child in the womb develops stage by stage, gradually forming the child that exits the mother. Scientists have shown that as early as 7 weeks, the child is moving. Brain waves have been shown at 6 weeks.
And, sorry, I don’t have time to help you track down sources. Good luck.

John
And thats my point
Jacksquat89 http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_online.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_154456”, true);
Regular Member
Join Date: August 13, 2004
Posts: 43

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Abortion?
Those abortion techniques are rarely used. Also abortions are usually administered before the baby can feel, or at least it has not been proven that it can feel. Abortion is wrong, but lets get our facts straight. :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanRyan1088
How would you feel if you were in your mama’s womb, and then a machine sucked you outta there peice by peice, or they cut into your skull and sucked out your brains until your head clapsed? Doesn’t sound so fun, does it.

That was what originally started this arguement, and the only source that I have seen to prove me wrong is the British Journal. I can give you right now 3-5 that say that the fetus cannot feel pain till the 20th,even more that say the fetus cannot feel pain till the 26th, and yet only one source that says that the fetus can feel pain in the first trimester. I have heard alot of hearsay about the silent scream video, but that is about it. Now you expect me to believe that source, but not the others? Why?
 
40.png
Jacksquat89:
That was what originally started this arguement, and the only source that I have seen to prove me wrong is the British Journal. I can give you right now 3-5 that say that the fetus cannot feel pain till the 20th,even more that say the fetus cannot feel pain till the 26th, and yet only one source that says that the fetus can feel pain in the first trimester. I have heard alot of hearsay about the silent scream video, but that is about it. Now you expect me to believe that source, but not the others? Why?
I think I answered that mixed in with my post. First you will notice that the journals that say 26 weeks assume that pain can only be felt with a fully developed nervous system, others say 20 weeks, which is included in the laws you posted a few posts back. Why are all these laws and experts so far off? 6 weeks is a large part of the pregnancy (especially if you consider that the youngest born person, 27 weeks, is now in high school) Obviously, the nervous system, grows slowly thoughout the pregnancy. The basic pain feeling portion in the brain is there much earlier than 20 weeks according to one of your sources and a few sources that monk gave, so you actually have more than one. So, look at the conditions given by the 20-26 week people, then look at the conditions given by the others. See a difference? It appears that the 20-26 wk crowd argues for a fully formed nervous system… That is based on an asumption, which given the other evidence doesn’t hold up for pain perception. People normally avoid percieved pain/discomfort, this has been shown to happen WELL before 20 weeks.

When you are looking to give a mathmatical law (since that is more my background) you do NOT say, “look this law works here and here and here and here, it is true”, no you say, “This always occurs” You only need one corner case to disprove a theory, (that or you reorient your arguement under certain constraints, which still might not make it accepted by the scientific community).
🙂 The same thing applies here.

John
 
40.png
yochumjy:
🙂 The same thing applies here.
Shortened in order to save space

The basic feeling portion of the brain might be there before the 20th week, but it is not functioning at that time.

The issue of fetal pain was addressed by a working group appointed by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in the United Kingdom. The panel consisted of experts in fetal development, law and bioethics. Dr. Anne McLaren headed the group.
The group determined that pain can only be felt by a fetus after nerve connections became established between two parts of its brain: the cortex and the thalamus. This happens about 26 weeks from conception. Professor Maria Fitzgerald of University College London, author of the working group’s report, says that “little sensory (name removed by moderator)ut” reaches the brain of the developing fetus before 26 weeks. “Therefore reactions to noxious stimuli cannot be interpreted as feeling or perceiving pain.

How do you know that the conditions given by the others are sufficent to tell whether or not the fetus can feel pain?

The undisputed discovery that the neonate and fetus launch a hormonal and neural response to invasive practice cannot be considered proof there is an experience of pain. An experience implies sensations have been interpreted in a conscious manner. Even when combined with the observations of behavior and improved clinical outcome when using anesthetics, there is still no proof there is an experience of pain. Although all of these phenomena are associated with the notion of “pain,” none of them adequately describe or explain the phenomenological experience of “pain.” These phenomena may exist independently of conscious experience. The relationship between the physiological responses of nociceptors, the hormonal and other responses of the CNS, and the behavioral outcome of these changes to the psychological response are yet to be determined (Wall & McMahon, 1986).

If a proper assessment of neonatal and fetal pain is to be undertaken, we should examine the structure of the psychological experience of “pain,” as the biological structures have been examined, and then work backwards to the fetus and neonate to decide whether it is likely or possible these psychological structures are in place (Derbyshire, 1999).

Pain experience is now widely seen as a consequence of an amalgam of cognition, sensation, and affective processes, commonly described under the rubric of the biopsychosocial model of pain. Pain is no longer regarded as merely a physical sensation of noxious stimulus and disease, but is seen as a conscious experience that may be modulated by mental, emotional, and sensory mechanisms with sensory and emotional components. The biopsychosocial concept emphasizes the multidimensional nature of illness, injury, and pain, rather than emphasizing pain as a purely physical fact of illness or injury. Pain has been described as a multidimensional phenomena for some time (Melzack & Casey, 1968), and this understanding is reflected in the current IASP definition of pain as “an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage” (Merskey, 1991).

(continued)
 
40.png
yochumjy:
🙂 The same thing applies here.
If this ‘multidimensionality’ is the basis of conscious pain experience, it seems unlikely we can attribute this experience to the neonate or unborn fetus, which is naive to the cognitive, affective, and evaluative experiences necessary for pain awareness. This is accepted in the current definition of pain, which is further expanded to state, “Pain is always subjective. Each individual learns the application of the word through experiences related to injury in early life.” Pain does not, so to speak, spring forth from the depths of the person’s mind prior to any experience, but is gradually formed as a consequence of general conscious development.

Interestingly, even those authors who support a concept of fetal pain tend to back away when confronted with the need to explain pain phenomenology. Giannakoulopoulos et al (1994), for example, distanced themselves from any implied fetal pain experience with the statement, “a hormonal response cannot be equated with the perception of pain.” Lloyd-Thomas and Fitzgerald (1996) have suggested if feeling and pain are properly understood, the fetus cannot be said to feel pain.

A further reason to doubt the viability of fetal pain post-26 weeks’ gestation is the development of the fetal cortex. Although the thalamocortical fibers penetrate the cortical plate at approximately 26 weeks’ gestation, the cortical regions that have been identified as important in processing the various components of pain (Derbyshire, 2000) do not become fully responsive until after birth (Chugani & Phelps, 1986).
 
Jack,

Are you actually reading and trying to understand these quotes? Let’s look at part of the quotes that span your two messages.
40.png
Jacksquat89:
Pain has been described as a multidimensional phenomena for some time (Melzack & Casey, 1968), and this understanding is reflected in the current IASP definition of pain as “an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage” (Merskey, 1991).

cont.

If this ‘multidimensionality’ is the basis of conscious pain experience, it seems unlikely we can attribute this experience to the neonate or unborn fetus, which is naive to the cognitive, affective, and evaluative experiences necessary for pain awareness.
So, it seems unlikely that that the unborn fetus can experiance the phenomenon that they call pain. Yet, with 8-12 week old unborn children they have shown that they move away from instruments of harm/discomfort (pins, suction, the backbone of the mother). Do they look at these studies? This “awareness” that they speak of here fits in perfectly with one of YOUR previous attempts to demonstrate that most unborn children do not feel pain during an abortion. Let’s re-quote one of your own sources

Statement by Dr. Paul Ranalli: … his belief that a fetus … can feel pain…a fetus will “withdraw from painful stimulation”

Have you now decided that this quote no longer supports your argument? So, even your 26 week “pain” supporters say that “pain” is unpleasent sensory (name removed by moderator)ut. People, born and unborn, instinctively move away from unpleasent sensory (name removed by moderator)ut, especially if it will cause physical harm. In fact, people have to make conscious decisions to accept pain, and given the brain development of an unborn, it appears everyone would argue that they don’t have that ability. So, if the unborn moves away from something (mother’s backbone, pin stick), it would appear logical that that would be unpleasent sensory (name removed by moderator)ut, correct?
40.png
Jacksquat89:
This is accepted in the current definition of pain, which is further expanded to state, “Pain is always subjective. Each individual learns the application of the word through experiences related to injury in early life.” Pain does not, so to speak, spring forth from the depths of the person’s mind prior to any experience, but is gradually formed as a consequence of general conscious development.
Now, they seem to flip-flop. Does unpleasent sensory (name removed by moderator)ut have to be learned? Does a baby have to learn that a pin-prick is unpleasent sensory (name removed by moderator)ut? Or, do they know instinctively that it is unpleasent. These researchers, are trying to say that a baby has to learn what pain is? NO, sheesh. As we grow, we might learn to overcome the reactions to unpleasent sensory (name removed by moderator)ut and learn to ignore “pain” or even redefine acceptable levels of unpleasent sensory (name removed by moderator)ut that we call pain, but this is a rediculous argument for a baby. We are hard wired, as are all animals/creatures, to try to not accept unpleasent sensory (name removed by moderator)ut unless we percieve good that will come of it. There has to be some learning and maturity of an animal to get to this point. Any newly born, unborn creature will not have learned this. I don’t have a study, but this seems pretty obvious. You could do tests yourself… Maybe you could walk up to your friend and slap them. Do they shy away? Now, tell your friend you will give them $5 if they don’t shy away after you slap them. If you did it long enough, maybe the slap would no longer be called “pain”, especially by the statement above, but does that really matter?

cont
 
40.png
Jacksquat89:
…Lloyd-Thomas and Fitzgerald (1996) have **suggested **…

A further reason to doubt the viability of fetal pain post-26 weeks’ gestation is the development of the fetal cortex. …do not become fully responsive until after birth (Chugani & Phelps, 1986).
I see a lot of “suggestes” which means they don’t really know. I see “fully responsive” which means there is partial responsivity before. I don’t see anything here that really disproves ANYTHING about the findings of the scientist that show that the movement of the unborn to “unpleasent sensory (name removed by moderator)ut” is not pain.

Next 🙂
 
40.png
Jacksquat89:
The fetus cannot feel pain, since it does not have a developed brain at that time. The brains develops to it’s full potential at the close of the gestational period. It is not fully developed until shortly before the the final stages prior to birth. Even if Nathans fetus had a brain, it would not be able to feel pain since it could not be fully developed within the twelve weeks of human gestation. This is because well formed nerve ending/fibers which can transmit pain impulses along the spinal cord to the brain and chemical neurotransmitters capable of carrying the signal form the neuron to neruon indicating pain or the presence of discomfuture are not developed and the neural pathways which transmit the pain impulses are not mature enough to function until mid pregnancy or later. There is no record of neurological development in a fetus in the first trimester.

source: The Abortion Handbook
So you’re saying that most babies being sucked out of their mother’s womb can’t feel their limbs being torn off? Wow. I feel better already. And as to the 14% that take place in the last trimester - one minute his little tiny feet are kicking and the next minute his skull is being stabbed so his brain can be sucked out. What do you say about him? Wish your Mom would’ve had you killed sooner?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top