? about sex

[bankerdavid]

ahh My example stated clearly that most people who abstain are abstaining for one reason to avoid conception, if there was zero chance of conception they wouldnt abstain so the intent is to abstain from intercourse to achieve the means of not conceiving.
as far as whats different between ABC and NFP to me the only difference is the monetary price per month,all accomplish thier goal of non conception with man made products
put my theory to the test tell a new couple that knows nothing about any forms of conception control to use NFP and send them home , dont teach them a thing , no paper to chart no thermometers etc, see if they ever can figure it out on thier own.
babies dont need charts, schools, paper etc to learn to breathe, and go potty, thats natural, they didnt need to be taught to cry,scream or coo or to smile thats natural, its been proven many many times that a couple needs no prior knowledge of intercourseto engage in its natural, same with mothers and breast feeding, taking care of a baby etc its all natural in other words you could slide a couple on an island as infants assuming they could survive they would be able to do all the above in time without any knowledge of any of it because its natural.
so the first word in NFP is very misleading it takes many man made products to accomplish,man made equals not natural…

anyways thats how i feel lucky for all of you my opinion means zip huh

                            John

Just a quick comment about the bolded part, man made = not natural? Come on! God created us just like he created everything else.

On your other examples, doing what comes naturally, put two people on a deserted island without knowlege and let them do what comes naturally, and eventually you have an island where either it becomes overcrowded, people start killing each other to survive, or some other form of self preservation happens. Or else they learn to make boats and migrate.

NFP is taking note of bodily cycles to predict when, most likely, an event will occur. It’s not perfect, but it’s still ultimately God’s decision whether or not you conceive. Using chemicals to prevent conception is using your own will to make the decision.

 

[johntkd]

The means for contraception is a seperate act that purposefully renders the marital act infertile. NFP is an action that one takes to know when one is fertile to avoid intercourse during those times. They do not make the marital act itself infertile. .

actually using NFP to not conceive is exactly making the marital act infertile you are falling victim to the countless misinformations being passed around out there to promote NFP, KNOWING when there is a fertile time, and then deliberatly not having intercourse, then having intercourse when not fertile is MAKING the ACT INFERTILE there are no word plays to change that you can quote all the mumbo jumbo you want to fact is its no different than ABC except price and actually a person using ABC is more open to life because they relize there is always a chance they could conceive yet they dont hold themselves back from each other…

 

[johntkd]

Just a quick comment about the bolded part, man made = not natural? Come on! God created us just like he created everything else.

On your other examples, doing what comes naturally, put two people on a deserted island without knowlege and let them do what comes naturally, and eventually you have an island where either it becomes overcrowded, people start killing each other to survive, or some other form of self preservation happens. Or else they learn to make boats and migrate.

NFP is taking note of bodily cycles to predict when, most likely, an event will occur. It’s not perfect, but it’s still ultimately God’s decision whether or not you conceive. Using chemicals to prevent conception is using your own will to make the decision.

By your example most ABC is also taking note of Bodily cycles and functions and its also not perfect, WHY IS it not perfect?? BECAUSE NOTHING MAN INVENTS IS PERFECT, that includes NFP which is also taking YOUR will into the decision and by the churches own admission as well and most everyones on here I see posts all over this forum telling people its as effective as the pill or better than the pill, How many thousands of people get conceived on the pill every year, so dont go running off that its out of Gods control, If he wants you preggo ABC,NFP even abstinence wont keep you from getting pregnant,

God Gave us the brains to figure out how to use “chemicals” ( actually Hormones which our own bodies produce)
to help control conception using your theory or example then that makes ABCs acceptable. NO nothing is acceptable its all or nothing, all the excuses they use to allow NFP can also be used to allow anything else, they play on words is all,.definitions are still the same,

and I guess I have to spell it out here, if you take two people
and tell them they can have 4 kids then must stop dont tell them anything about ABC or NFP how will they stop having kids?
they will totally abstain from sex WHY? because they do not have man telling them when a fertile time in cycle is, they dont have thermometers and charts etc, It took scientists thousands of years to figure all that stuff out…

 

[laariii]

the church allows NFP or nothing. it has always mantained that couples can abstain form sex to avoid pregnancy. NFP is just a more accurate than guessing or going without for months on end.

People have know that women are more fertile at certain times for centurys if not longer.

 

[mamacita]

ABC is not the same as NFP. NFP is not “artificial” in my opinion. ABC allows a person to commit the act of intercourse whenever they please, even when fertile and takes God out of the equation. NFP you may abstain (that is personal choice) but that doesn’t mean that you are taking God out of the equation because at a time when you think you are ** not** fertile and you have intercourse, YOU may conceive because God was in the equation.

 

[LittleDeb]

John,
You still don’t understand.

I am almost seven months pregnant. By your arguments presented here and in other threads I have very few options or way too many. Either we should be totally abstaining because I am naturally infertile and yet knowingly we engage in the marital act. Or I can now be engaging in whatever sexual practices I want with my husband since we cannot conceive. Neither answer works. Our bodies have a design. Everything we do must be in union with that design.

Why are men always fertile? Why are women cyclically fertile AND constantly infertile after a time? Why can’t we conceive after a baby has implanted? Why does breast-feeding throughout history suppress fertility? Because God designed it that way. And His design has a purpose.

NFP encompasses waaaaaay more than just charting fertility. It is based in understanding God’s design and working in union with it. Many people argue that ejaculation outside the vagina is fine during natural infertility. They argue that since conception cannot happen anyway that it is fine. Yet the Church teaches that it is NOT fine. Why? Because it violates the design. His design has a purpose.

One thing I have learned in my years of study as a Catholic is thus: The same rules apply to everyone. Sex makes babies, no matter how many people try to tell you otherwise. Why is periodic continence addressed in Scripture? (to the affirmative I might add.) Why would anyone periodically abstain without reason? Why is total celibacy “for the kingdom” addressed in Scripture as a higher calling? Paraphrased: “I wish that everyone were called to this level, but not everyone is.”–St. Paul.

Either we accept celibacy as a higher calling or we use it any old time. If my need for spacing children were so dire as to call for total celibacy, then I am called to something else in my life. I’m not. I am called to periodic continence NOT total continence. I am called to be a mother. You would deny me that calling? Would you argue that because I understand my fertility I should abstain from the marital embrace completely until I go to conceive again? Would you argue that God’s design is broken in making me naturally infertile at times? The same rules apply to everyone.

Would you argue that we will need to abstain while I am breast-feeding because I am naturally infertile? Everyone who has ever breast-fed for an extended period has used NFP whether they charted or not. Some people stay infertile for a long time, and some have a return of fertility almost immediately even when feeding in the same manner. It is just the way the design works. God’s design.

Are you arguing that since I have horrible health and some major financial concerns that God somehow loves us less? Are you saying that we need to totally close the door to God’s will? Since we are still called to conceive, though with significant space between to recover my health, we are supposed to be in total abstinence until WE alone decide it’s time to conceive?

Since God wrote these signs on our bodies why do you deny me understanding them? If you saw my charts you would laugh. We have serious reason to space our children, yet in any given month we still chart fairly loosely. Our marital embraces are based as entirely on God’s plan for us as we are humanly capable of. My chart is just a window to look through in understanding Him.

All of humanity’s sexual practices must be in union with God’s design. He made sure that certain body parts only belong in certain places. He made the male orgasm and ejaculation simultaneous. He made both the male and the female necessary in conceiving and raising a child. He made women cyclically fertile and men constantly fertile. He wrote the signs of that fertility on our bodies. He preserved that knowledge for us throughout all of history.

The answer to all of your concerns regarding NFP is to understand the design. The best way to understand the design is to seek a deeper understanding and intimate relationship with the Designer.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

John,
You still don’t understand.

I am almost seven months pregnant. By your arguments presented here and in other threads I have very few options or way too many. Either we should be totally abstaining because I am naturally infertile and yet knowingly we engage in the marital act. Or I can now be engaging in whatever sexual practices I want with my husband since we cannot conceive. Neither answer works. Our bodies have a design. Everything we do must be in union with that design.

Why are men always fertile? Why are women cyclically fertile AND constantly infertile after a time? Why can’t we conceive after a baby has implanted? Why does breast-feeding throughout history suppress fertility? Because God designed it that way. And His design has a purpose.

NFP encompasses waaaaaay more than just charting fertility. It is based in understanding God’s design and working in union with it. Many people argue that ejaculation outside the vagina is fine during natural infertility. They argue that since conception cannot happen anyway that it is fine. Yet the Church teaches that it is NOT fine. Why? Because it violates the design. His design has a purpose.

One thing I have learned in my years of study as a Catholic is thus: The same rules apply to everyone. Sex makes babies, no matter how many people try to tell you otherwise. Why is periodic continence addressed in Scripture? (to the affirmative I might add.) Why would anyone periodically abstain without reason? Why is total celibacy “for the kingdom” addressed in Scripture as a higher calling? Paraphrased: “I wish that everyone were called to this level, but not everyone is.”–St. Paul.

Either we accept celibacy as a higher calling or we use it any old time. If my need for spacing children were so dire as to call for total celibacy, then I am called to something else in my life. I’m not. I am called to periodic continence NOT total continence. I am called to be a mother. You would deny me that calling? Would you argue that because I understand my fertility I should abstain from the marital embrace completely until I go to conceive again? Would you argue that God’s design is broken in making me naturally infertile at times? The same rules apply to everyone.

Would you argue that we will need to abstain while I am breast-feeding because I am naturally infertile? Everyone who has ever breast-fed for an extended period has used NFP whether they charted or not. Some people stay infertile for a long time, and some have a return of fertility almost immediately even when feeding in the same manner. It is just the way the design works. God’s design.

Are you arguing that since I have horrible health and some major financial concerns that God somehow loves us less? Are you saying that we need to totally close the door to God’s will? Since we are still called to conceive, though with significant space between to recover my health, we are supposed to be in total abstinence until WE alone decide it’s time to conceive?

Since God wrote these signs on our bodies why do you deny me understanding them? If you saw my charts you would laugh. We have serious reason to space our children, yet in any given month we still chart fairly loosely. Our marital embraces are based as entirely on God’s plan for us as we are humanly capable of. My chart is just a window to look through in understanding Him.

All of humanity’s sexual practices must be in union with God’s design. He made sure that certain body parts only belong in certain places. He made the male orgasm and ejaculation simultaneous. He made both the male and the female necessary in conceiving and raising a child. He made women cyclically fertile and men constantly fertile. He wrote the signs of that fertility on our bodies. He preserved that knowledge for us throughout all of history.

The answer to all of your concerns regarding NFP is to understand the design. The best way to understand the design is to seek a deeper understanding and intimate relationship with the Designer.

This is by far one of the best posts I have ever seen on this subject! Bravo LittleDeb! Thank you for sharing!

That was inspiring!

 

[fix]

actually using NFP to not conceive is exactly making the marital act infertile you are falling victim to the countless misinformations being passed around out there to promote NFP, KNOWING when there is a fertile time, and then deliberatly not having intercourse, then having intercourse when not fertile is MAKING the ACT INFERTILE there are no word plays to change that you can quote all the mumbo jumbo you want to fact is its no different than ABC except price and actually a person using ABC is more open to life because they relize there is always a chance they could conceive yet they dont hold themselves back from each other…

It is not about wordplay. It is about truth and accuracy. NFP does not alter the act in any way. To claim it does is to redefine what the marital act actually is.

 

[DailyBread]

actually using NFP to not conceive is exactly making the marital act infertile you are falling victim to the countless misinformations being passed around out there to promote NFP, KNOWING when there is a fertile time, and then deliberatly not having intercourse, then having intercourse when not fertile is MAKING the ACT INFERTILE there are no word plays to change that you can quote all the mumbo jumbo you want to fact is its no different than ABC except price and actually a person using ABC is more open to life because they relize there is always a chance they could conceive yet they dont hold themselves back from each other…

I think you are missing some points on basic philosophy. Please read Dr. May’s book entitled “Catholic Bioethics.” They are in fact not making the act infertile by a volitional choice, but rather nature has made times where one cannot get pregnant. If God wanted every act to occur when the woman was fertile we would be like rabbits (basically a female rabbit ovulates after sexual intercourse). ABC is a seperate act apart from intercourse that prevents the transmission af fertility apart from natural causes (natural in the sense that they are outside the realm of human purposefully interfering with this transmission).
Let us take another example. Say you have a dying Grandma in the late stages of Alzheimers. You have two choices, you could either inject her with potassium to shut her heart down and end things now, or you could just medicate her pain and let nature take its course. Are both guilty of killing the woman? No! One was an act of murder because by the seperate purposeful action of the injection, one takes the life of the woman, while the other allows nature to take its course.
ABC is the act of rendering an act of intercourse infertile by human means, while NFP when for the purpose of delaying is not an act that renders intercourse infertile, but rather limits intercourse to times when NATURE made it infertile. You must seperate morality of an act based on ENDS, CIRCUMSTANCE, and MEANS. Your argument continues to look solely at the ends which is a utilitarian defense and untenable at that. The means for NFP and ABC are different as is the difference between the case above with the Grandma.
May God bless you as you search for the truth,
Dailybread

 

[fix]

By your example most ABC is also taking note of Bodily cycles and functions and its also not perfect, WHY IS it not perfect?? BECAUSE NOTHING MAN INVENTS IS PERFECT, that includes NFP which is also taking YOUR will into the decision and by the churches own admission as well and most everyones on here I see posts all over this forum telling people its as effective as the pill or better than the pill, How many thousands of people get conceived on the pill every year, so dont go running off that its out of Gods control, If he wants you preggo ABC,NFP even abstinence wont keep you from getting pregnant,

Contraception intentionally suppresses the gift of fertility. Observing the signs of the cycle never suppresses fertility.

God Gave us the brains to figure out how to use “chemicals” ( actually Hormones which our own bodies produce)
to help control conception using your theory or example then that makes ABCs acceptable. NO nothing is acceptable its all or nothing, all the excuses they use to allow NFP can also be used to allow anything else, they play on words is all,.definitions are still the same,

The gift of fertility is a personal good, not an instrumental good. We have no authority to destroy it for personal desire. It would be like destroying a friendship for some personal gain. A good end never is justified by an evil means.

and I guess I have to spell it out here, if you take two people
and tell them they can have 4 kids then must stop dont tell them anything about ABC or NFP how will they stop having kids?
they will totally abstain from sex WHY? because they do not have man telling them when a fertile time in cycle is, they dont have thermometers and charts etc, It took scientists thousands of years to figure all that stuff out…

You miss some very central points and distill morality down to pragmatism. Scientifitic knowledge is not evil, but the knowledge must be used in a way that does not contradict the will of God. That something can be done does not mean it is good to do. Direct abortion is considered “good” by the medical profession. That knowledge exists to perform that act does not mean it is good to do.

 

[johntkd]

ABC is not the same as NFP. NFP is not “artificial” in my opinion. ABC allows a person to commit the act of intercourse whenever they please, even when fertile and takes God out of the equation. NFP you may abstain (that is personal choice) but that doesn’t mean that you are taking God out of the equation because at a time when you think you are not fertile and you have intercourse, YOU may conceive because God was in the equation.

OK how do you figure that one? prolly because thats the propaghanda on NFP Mary was a virgin and still conceived…
God can and will do whatever he wants when he wants, ABC, NFP or abstinence

 

[DailyBread]

OK how do you figure that one? prolly because thats the propaghanda on NFP Mary was a virgin and still conceived…
God can and will do whatever he wants when he wants, ABC, NFP or abstinence

With that type of argument then I could shoot a gun at anyone I want and if God really wanted them to be alive, then He would stop the bullet, but if the person dies, then they were suppose to die and I did nothing wrong. We are responsible for our actions as beings with our own free will. Our will can go against God’s Will and God permits this so that we have freedom as to serve him or not. Just because something happens does not mean God desired that action or that it follows God’s plan. Obviously the whole bible is filled with actions that God permitted so that we may have freedom of our own will, but He did not take pleasure in those actions and promises justice in the final judgement for things that displeased him.
Even the example of Mary, God was not going to have her be the Mother of His Son if she refused and go above her will.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

OK how do you figure that one? prolly because thats the propaghanda on NFP Mary was a virgin and still conceived…
God can and will do whatever he wants when he wants, ABC, NFP or abstinence

Please for the sake of all the arguements that you have presented in this thread, please tell me that you want to take this back, please. Now is your chance. You are not serious right?

God is God and He can do whatever He wants to do. Yes that is true and He does. God is taken out of the equation with Artificial Birth Control (henceforth known as ABC). What a couple that uses ABC is saying to God is that “God you can be in charge of my life, except my sexuality. I am in charge of that, you have no business here. I will decide when, where, why and how I decide to have children. It will be on my time!” You do not want to allow God to be God. You are using means that are artificial in the act and taking control of sex which was given to you by God and is in the hands of God.

As I am sure that you have heard, sexual intercourse must be unitive and procreative. How can that be so when the man wears a condom? When the woman uses the pill? How can that be? With NFP, each and every act of intercourse is open to human life. Whether fertile or infertile, every act. How can that be true with ABC?

Now please do not throw the immaculate conception of Mary when she conceived Jesus because as far as I know there is not a woman on this earth (or one that has passed away) that deserves that honor and distiction from our Lord.

 

[newbetx]

John,
I’ve read some of your posts and some of the less than polite responses… I want you to know that I’ve said many of the same things you have. None of that “Pope in the bedroom” stuff for me!.. But as my love life crumbled around me, my wife grew more distant, and our intimacy died away, (this took years, BTW) I thought I’d better get some answers… So I heard about Christopher West and his work on John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. I suggest you read it. Not to change your mind but to get an objective view of why we think the way we do… As Christopher West says… buy it all or buy none of it… so at that point, you get to choose. Easy enough? No insults, no bull. Trust me, it will explain it for a few bucks and you can relax. Let us know in a few weeks how you are doing, OK?

Theology of the Body for Beginners is the one I read.

 

[newbetx]

Sorry, I see now that I should have included others like Hobo, La-Petite-Fleurand and Scott? in my last address, too.

John,
I understand the “anything is possible with God” statement. It’s true, but it’s more than just that.

All, You are getting (good) bits and pieces in (unfortunately)random order here…If you want the story presented in a way that you can understand, read a book.

 

[Urf]

Because sex can’t be disconnected from the spreading of life.

I dont think I’ll ever understand this when NFP is complete flat out sex without the intention of procreation.

Oh well, the Pope said so!

 

[PennitentMan]

The ABC/NFP question boils down to, basically, is there a difference?

Here’s an argument. This is an honest question that has been plaguing me, I’m not trying to stir up anything, but here’s my question:

Let’s say there are two couples and both don’t want more kids. No medical reasons involved, they just feel like they have enough kids.

One couple decides to use NFP
One couple decides to use ABC (non abortive, for this argument)

Both couples love each other dearly. Both want to be intimate with their partners. Both are willing to risk the possibility of another pregnancy, but, if they can avoid it, they would.

Firstly: Is the couple using NFP committing mortal sin (grave matter)?

Secondly (is this a word ?? )
Now, all pro-NFP people say that, statistically, the pair that uses ABC is more likely to get pregnant unintentionally.

But let’s look at the two couples:
The couple using NFP has to remove themselves from their spouses at the height of the female monthly sexual peak. This causes endless frustrations with both partners.
The couple using NFP can only be intimate when the woman is “turned off”. It’s not something she wants to do. It’s something she needs to “work on” each month.
This cause MAJOR friction in the average NFP-practicing marriage. It also leads to serious temptations for the man during the infertile times (When they can’t but the wife wants to), and for the woman during the fertile times (When they can but the wife doesn’t want to).

The couple using ABC can come together in the marital embrace and share the intimacy they both want and need. Any time. They share more love, more intimacy and more closeness than the couple practicing NFP.

If the risks are the same, I’d say that the couple using ABC is happier with their marriage and their partners.

And if, statistically, NFP users are safer, than both should be equally “open to life”, or even, the ABC couple are MORE open to life each time they copulate, for two reasons…they also are intimate during the wife’s fertile cycle, and they statistics are against them.

Personally, I’d say the couple using ABC is far better off, mentally, and spiritually.

If ABC gives one more peace of mind and keeps temptation away, isn’t ABC the better of the two choices for these couples?

PM

 

[blackrobe]

And, as far as a woman is concerned, it is absolutely the proper use of genital organs since there can be almost no climax for her without oral sex or masturbation.

Many clever and uncharitable remarks spring to mind, but I’ll just say my experience, which may be more limited than yours, suggests otherwise.

JSA

 

[gam3rchic]

I really don’t understand this prejudice against sex merely for pleasure…

Sex has many dimensions for it’s purpose…not just pleasure…God is not that shallow. One purpose is physical pleasure, yes, but it’s also for procreation and the emotional and physical bonding of a married couple. I’ve heard an apologist say that every time a married couple engages in sex, it is in sense a renewel of their marriage vows because each person gives themself completely to their spouse, physically and emotionally. It is the ultimate act of human intimacy and can not be reduced to something JUST for pleasure, it is much more complex than that.

 

[DailyBread]

The ABC/NFP question boils down to, basically, is there a difference?
Yes please read Catholic Bioethics by Dr. William May to understand these differences.
Here’s an argument. This is an honest question that has been plaguing me, I’m not trying to stir up anything, but here’s my question:

Let’s say there are two couples and both don’t want more kids. No medical reasons involved, they just feel like they have enough kids.

One couple decides to use NFP
One couple decides to use ABC (non abortive, for this argument)

Both couples love each other dearly. Both want to be intimate with their partners. Both are willing to risk the possibility of another pregnancy, but, if they can avoid it, they would.

Firstly: Is the couple using NFP committing mortal sin (grave matter)?
It depends on the circumstance in which they do it. If it is discerned out of a generosity to current children and possible future children along with welfare to family putting aside selfish motives like children are “burdens” or from materialism or laziness, then it is acceptable. The Church allows each couple to discern this on their own, but expects the decision to come from fruitful dialogue and prayful discernment.
Secondly (is this a word ?? )Yes
Now, all pro-NFP people say that, statistically, the pair that uses ABC is more likely to get pregnant unintentionally.

But let’s look at the two couples:
The couple using NFP has to remove themselves from their spouses at the height of the female monthly sexual peak. This causes endless frustrations with both partners. Or self discipline which is the mark of true love. Love is true when one can make sacrifices for the other out of obedience to do God’s Will. The cross is indeed a calling of all. To deny one’s Cross is to not follow Jesus.
The couple using NFP can only be intimate when the woman is “turned off”. It’s not something she wants to do. It’s something she needs to “work on” each month. Although biologically speaking this is true, humans are more than just hormones. Desire grows for one another out of holiness. This desire can cause a desire to unite as one flesh even when not at biological peak. I will let women back me up on this since I am not a woman, but a loving selfless husband who shows other affection during abstinence and is selfless in his devotion to her to me is really what makes him desirable, not merely because it is the time of the month.
This cause MAJOR friction in the average NFP-practicing marriage. It also leads to serious temptations for the man during the infertile times (When they can’t but the wife wants to), and for the woman during the fertile times (When they can but the wife doesn’t want to). This may be true for some, not true for others. For individuals who practiced chastity before marriage and do not see sexual gratification as a need for happiness can handle this better then people who masturbated before or during their marriage, used abc, or had premarital sex.

The couple using ABC can come together in the marital embrace and share the intimacy they both want and need. Any time. They share more love, more intimacy and more closeness than the couple practicing NFP. Again you equate sex as a need all the time and how much sex as a sign of sharing love. Love is desiring the good of the other. In this case ABC seems more like a “I cannot abstain and I need sex and you are my way of getting that pleasure fulfilled.” When people say I need sex, I do not think the underlying cause for this need is, I feel like I am not making a gift of myself to my spouse. And say one could never have sex again with their spouse due to some morbidity of the spouse. Since this “need” cannot be fulfilled, is the marriage devoid of love or not as “good” because the need for sex is not met?
If the risks are the same, I’d say that the couple using ABC is happier with their marriage and their partners.
Actual studies have found the opposite:
geocities.com/oneida_co_ccl/marta.html
pureloveclub.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&cat=Birth+Control&entryid=121
chnonline.org/weddings/2004-08-12/special_supp3.html