? about sex

[DailyBread]

cont
And if, statistically, NFP users are safer, than both should be equally “open to life”, or even, the ABC couple are MORE open to life each time they copulate, for two reasons…they also are intimate during the wife’s fertile cycle, and they statistics are against them.
Actually many including pro contraception people acknowledge the link of contraception and abortion noting that a person who has used contraception is more likely to have an abortion. Again Dr. May’s book will show this. I could email a powerpoint presentation I made as well on this fact linking contraception to abortion. As JPII said, abortion is the fruit of the contraceptive mentality. Regardless of effectiveness, it is the mentality that I should govern when I have a child as opposed to proper NFP understanding which is the same as Mary’s “thy will be done.”
Personally, I’d say the couple using ABC is far better off, mentally, and spiritually.
See above. I dare someone to find me data showing that people who contracept go to Church more often, pray the rrosary, ect…
If ABC gives one more peace of mind and keeps temptation away, isn’t ABC the better of the two choices for these couples?
Well I do not know how it keeps temptation away seeing as you gave into the temptation to use abc, and how can one validate peace of mind when you admit in your writing that it is less effective to use ABC than NFP as part of an earlier argument? If I really want peace of mind that you are suggesting in the sense of avoiding pregnancy, than by your own argument, you should say NFP gives you greater peace of mind.
PM
Thanks for the opportunity to have a good dialogue. I mean that in good will, not as coniving. I know you are facing difficulties and I will pray for you! Pray for me too!
DB

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

I know that Daily Bread did a great job of responding to this, but I wanted to put in my :twocents: as well.

The ABC/NFP question boils down to, basically, is there a difference?

Yes, very clear difference, one is allowing God into your sexual life, the other is not.

Here’s an argument. This is an honest question that has been plaguing me, I’m not trying to stir up anything, but here’s my question:

Let’s say there are two couples and both don’t want more kids. No medical reasons involved, they just feel like they have enough kids.

One couple decides to use NFP
One couple decides to use ABC (non abortive, for this argument)

Both couples love each other dearly. Both want to be intimate with their partners. Both are willing to risk the possibility of another pregnancy, but, if they can avoid it, they would.

Firstly: Is the couple using NFP committing mortal sin (grave matter)?

I do not see how they are committing a mortal or grave sin. If they have discerned for themselves that they have a reasonable desire to not have another child then so be it. They still understand that with NFP the marital act is unitive and procreative, thereby it is open to life. And as you have stated “both are willing to rish the possibility of another pregnancy” therefore they are still following God’s plan for sex.

Secondly (is this a word ?? )

Yes, (that is an easy question)

Now, all pro-NFP people say that, statistically, the pair that uses ABC is more likely to get pregnant unintentionally.

Just a word of caution, be careful to use and all-inclusive statement here. The reason that is true is that those that are pro-NFP (for the most part) know the cycle of the wife and know when it is likely that she will get pregnant. With ABC the couple has sex anyway and the ABC may fail. That is why “statistically” pro-NFP people would say that.

But let’s look at the two couples:
The couple using NFP has to remove themselves from their spouses at the height of the female monthly sexual peak. This causes endless frustrations with both partners.

I think that between the word “This” and the word “causes” there should be the word “could” inserted and “causes” becomes “cause.” That statement should read “This could cause” (take out endless) “frustration with both partners.” True it can be frustrating, but a marriage is not about sex, not does the marriage depend upon sex. It is as if those that are on the outside looking in at NFP view it as a huge burden. “Oh my, how can you go without sex for a week?” C’mon, are we nothing but mammals? Do we have to have it all the time? I think that we are a step above dogs and can temper our sexual urges during a fertile time if trying to avoid a pregnancy. Honestly, I have heard of a lot of ways to die, but lack of sex… never heard of that.

The couple using NFP can only be intimate when the woman is “turned off”. It’s not something she wants to do. It’s something she needs to “work on” each month.

Again you are making assumptions here that the only time that a woman is “turned on” is when she is fertile? So far from the truth. Granted she may be more aroused at that time, hmmm: maybe God planned it that way) but to think that this is the only time that she desires sex is so far from the truth that you are running the risk of place women into such a bad light. You are painting with a very broad brush here.

This cause MAJOR friction in the average NFP-practicing marriage.

I would think that the exact opposite is true, this causes the couple to practice many different virtues and gives them a chance to show their love for one another in many different ways. In a way this is foreplay, setting up the time for that next encounter when the get to come together again as man and wife in the marital embrace. Again, I think that you are basing a lot of this on your opinion and have no factual support for this, personaly experience, maybe, but I do not find this to be the case with those that I talk to about practicing NFP. Most NFP couples know the sacrifices that have to be made during fertile times. Again, marriage is not all about sex.

It also leads to serious temptations for the man during the infertile times (When they can’t but the wife wants to), and for the woman during the fertile times (When they can but the wife doesn’t want to).

It can lead to temptations, but are we not all tempted at different times in our lives to do different things? It is about being able to not give into those temptations. It is about not taking from your husband or wife what is theirs…your sexuality. Masturbation would rob them of that and again that just puts us back on the levels of animals that we cannot live without sex.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

(continued)

The couple using ABC can come together in the marital embrace and share the intimacy they both want and need. Any time. They share more love, more intimacy and more closeness than the couple practicing NFP.

I HIGHLY disagree!! Sorry this is so far from the truth and has to be the biggest slap in the face to any NFP couple out there. To say that, as an ABC practicing couple, you are more intimate and close to your spouse than the NFP couple is utterly nonesense. When you are using ABC you are saying to your wife, “I give you everything that I have, all my love, my life, my body, my soul, oh wait, but not my fertility! That is mine, I am keeping that, you cannot have that.” Intimacy? Closeness? The NFP couple gives EVERYTHING just as Christ gave EVERYTHING! When we receive communion at mass, we hear “Take this all of you and eat it, this is My body given up for you!!” That is what we say to our spouses when we give ourselves to them totally, faithfully and fruitfully in the marital embrace as we use NFP, take my body which I have given for you!

If the risks are the same, I’d say that the couple using ABC is happier with their marriage and their partners.

Again, I HIGHLY disagree for reasons mentioned above.

And if, statistically, NFP users are safer, than both should be equally “open to life”, or even, the ABC couple are MORE open to life each time they copulate, for two reasons…they also are intimate during the wife’s fertile cycle, and they statistics are against them.

Personally, I’d say the couple using ABC is far better off, mentally, and spiritually.

Again, no offense to you, but I think that you are so far away from the truth in this example. I do not see any way that you can say (with a straight face) that the ABC could is “far better off mentally and spiritually.” I as a NFP practicing husband take great offense to that and would put my marriage up against the greatest couple the most in love couple, the most religious couple that practices ABC anyday and I can guarantee you (guarantee) that my mental stability and spirituality will exceed thiers everyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

If ABC gives one more peace of mind and keeps temptation away, isn’t ABC the better of the two choices for these couples?

PM

Again, we are not dogs, we can live without sex. We will not die. ABC is NEVER the better choice and there is no way that you or anyone else could ever, EVER, convince me of that. I have seen both sides, I have walked on both sides, I know what it is like. I have been there. I can tell you from experience that ABC is terrible and it ruins your life in ways that you do not even realize. Sad, but true.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

If the risks are the same, I’d say that the couple using ABC is happier with their marriage and their partners.

One more thing as I did not realize how far from the truth this was. How is the ABC couple happier? Because they can have more sex? Sex=happiness? I thought that my goal in my marriage was to get my wife to heaven, not to please her in bed every waking moment. Is sex the way that any marriage will become happier? “Aww honey, I know you just lost $10,000 at the casino, but lets have sex, that will make us happier.” “I know that you do not want to go to church with me, but can we still have sex?”

I challenge you to take a poll of the women on here and see if the #1 thing that makes them happy in their marriae is sex.

I strongly disagree with your statement, I feel that it lacks any support or basis.

 

[blackrobe]

Perhaps a better reading.

Citing sources is not a means of cross-referencing.

For a document that is intended to guide people in their lives, it’s awfully confusing at times.

The CCC is extensively cross-referenced. Note the numbers in the margins, they refer to paragraphs relevant to the matter at hand.

JSA

 

[LittleDeb]

Excellent posts Daily Bread and Mirror Mirror!

Yes, as a woman I will back up what Daily Bread said about women and arousal 100%. Mirror Mirror seconded it from his wife’s perspective. Yes, the fertile phase is the most arousing to a woman, but that does not mean that infertile times are not arousing too. I think God designed it that way to keep the species going. So even when a woman is married to a big dumb lout who knows nothing of foreplay and cares nothing for her she will still want to have sex during the time when conception is possible. It’s survival of the species I guess.

To be loved and cherished by a man who desires procreation and unity is very arousing. To know my DH has no desire for masturbation or anything else non-procreative has made me a happy, willing wife. I think my sex drive is much higher all around since embracing NFP. Yet at the same time, dear hubby and I find that neither of us gets very aroused during fertility when we aren’t called to conceive. Still very affectionate, yes, but not terribly sexually aroused.

DH doesn’t really watch my chart. He just “knows.” (He knew our baby was a girl because I was sooooo different than when I was carrying our son. Pretty cool. )

 

[stadre]

I started to write a reply, but didn’t think it was well worded. Thank you to Daily Bread and Mirror Mirror for their very well thought out responses.

I do need to add one thing. Studies have shown that more women feel the highest sexual desire just before, during, and shortly after menstruation, not ovulation. (If anyone has seen differently, please share.)

And, of course, we need to keep in mind that every woman and relationship is different. Women respond sexually to other forms of intimacy from their husbands. And, even when they may not have a great desire for intercourse, most will find that, once started, they do enjoy the act and closeness. (Dr. Laura calls it “priming the pump”!)

 

[LittleDeb]

I do need to add one thing. Studies have shown that more women feel the highest sexual desire just before, during, and shortly after menstruation, not ovulation. (If anyone has seen differently, please share.)

I have heard this too, but my interviews with other women have shown a different common thread. From my non-scientific view it has been women on the Pill who have this cycle of desire. It would make sense because that time is when the sex drive lowering hormone dose is leaving and they are going to the week 4 placebo. Their drive during “menstruation” or more accurately “withdrawal bleeding” is their actual sex drive, not the lowered one in the fake cycle.

Don’t quote me because I have no source, but this has been my experience both personally and from speaking with women. A decade ago I was on hormonal contraception to “treat” my female troubles. I was on a three week cycle of pills so I never bled. I also had no sex drive at all.

 

[marybee]

PennitentMan was sharing his personal frustrations. I think everyone is entiteled to do that once in a while. I don’t think picking his post apart line by line is comforting to a person while they are frustrated. Just MHO.

 

[stadre]

I have heard this too, but my interviews with other women have shown a different common thread. From my non-scientific view it has been women on the Pill who have this cycle of desire. It would make sense because that time is when the sex drive lowering hormone dose is leaving and they are going to the week 4 placebo. Their drive during “menstruation” or more accurately “withdrawal bleeding” is their actual sex drive, not the lowered one in the fake cycle.

Don’t quote me because I have no source, but this has been my experience both personally and from speaking with women. A decade ago I was on hormonal contraception to “treat” my female troubles. I was on a three week cycle of pills so I never bled. I also had no sex drive at all.

I do recognize that every woman is different and I would never suggest that what you have learned of yourself and from others is wrong. I did find this site dataguru.org/love/strathormn.asp. I don’t feel comfortable posting the paragraph talking about it here, but it starts, “There is some evidence,” which is the 5th paragraph. (They used Hart as a source and I have his statistics, which I used for my post.) What I found interesting, was there are studies basically proving higher desire at different times in the cycle. My main point was that we cannot and should not assume that a hypothetical couple is having problems with NFP because she would only be in the mood while ovulating.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

PennitentMan was sharing his personal frustrations. I think everyone is entiteled to do that once in a while. I don’t think picking his post apart line by line is comforting to a person while they are frustrated. Just MHO.

IMHO, I think that it was important to do so as the entire post focused on ABC couples being “happier” than NFP couples and that sex=happiness. I am aware of PM’s frustrations, but does that mean that we are not to continue to speak the truth even when someone is frustrated?

I see what you are saying, but the forums, this post, any thread for that matter is not about just one post or one person that posts, there are many others out there that may read that. What if someone that is trying to decide to use ABC or NFP comes in and PM’s post is the one that they read. With not reference to the RCC in that post they would think “hey ABC is okay and I get to have sex whenever I want.” And away they go.

 

[marybee]

IMHO, I think that it was important to do so as the entire post focused on ABC couples being “happier” than NFP couples and that sex=happiness. I am aware of PM’s frustrations, but does that mean that we are not to continue to speak the truth even when someone is frustrated?

I see what you are saying, but the forums, this post, any thread for that matter is not about just one post or one person that posts, there are many others out there that may read that. What if someone that is trying to decide to use ABC or NFP comes in and PM’s post is the one that they read. With not reference to the RCC in that post they would think “hey ABC is okay and I get to have sex whenever I want.” And away they go.

I didn’t take it that way at all. I saw it like, “you can’t feel this way because you are wrong. here is why…” But whatever.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

I didn’t take it that way at all. I saw it like, “you can’t feel this way because you are wrong. here is why…” But whatever.

Sorry that you misinterpreted it. It was not meant to come off that way. I don’t attribute all of his post to “frustration” as one does not take the time to be that specific when they are frustrated. It was more than simple frustration.

 

[marybee]

Sorry that you misinterpreted it. It was not meant to come off that way. I don’t attribute all of his post to “frustration” as one does not take the time to be that specific when they are frustrated. It was more than simple frustration.

One thing I think is worth mentioning, I don’t speak for PM only myself here. But NFP is not a bed of roses…and some ppl hate it, yes I know scandal, I HATE it. But I do it anyway, and that may even make it more meritorious, i don’t know. It has “failed” for me, I know it has for PM too. IT is difficult, I don’t know when to trust my own observations, It puts a damper on spontineity, and yes, I like having sex when I am aroused easily. Does that make me a bad person? Sometimes I wish that condoms were acceptable, sometimes I think about how much more reliable (yes some may protest to the effectiveness) some other forms of ABC are. I also think of how great it would be to have a little more control over the size of my family…Sorry for the rant, but not every one who uses NFP thinks it is the best thing next to sliced bread.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

One thing I think is worth mentioning, I don’t speak for PM only myself here. But NFP is not a bed of roses…and some ppl hate it, yes I know scandal, I HATE it. But I do it anyway, and that may even make it more meritorious, i don’t know. It has “failed” for me, I know it has for PM too. IT is difficult, I don’t know when to trust my own observations, It puts a damper on spontineity, and yes, I like having sex when I am aroused easily. Does that make me a bad person? Sometimes I wish that condoms were acceptable, sometimes I think about how much more reliable (yes some may protest to the effectiveness) some other forms of ABC are. I also think of how great it would be to have a little more control over the size of my family…Sorry for the rant, but not every one who uses NFP thinks it is the best thing next to sliced bread.

I can understand your frustrations with NFP, honestly I can. But to think that we cannot go without sex, we cannot temper ourselves during certain times is, again, reducing us to mere animals. Of course it does not make you a bad person to be aroused and want sex, it makes you human. Again, sex was a gift given to us by God and with ABC you are not using the fullness of that gift. That would be likened to someone giving you a gift and you right in front of them pick out what you want and don’t want and give them back the things that you do not want.

Lastly, I wanted to say that I find your term “failed” very hurtful. Please when you have a chance go to you child and tell him or her that they are here because of a failure. Why not tell them that they are an accident. How disheartening. NFP did not “fail” at all nor is your child the result of a failure.

 

[marybee]

I can understand your frustrations with NFP, honestly I can. But to think that we cannot go without sex, we cannot temper ourselves during certain times is, again, reducing us to mere animals. Of course it does not make you a bad person to be aroused and want sex, it makes you human. Again, sex was a gift given to us by God and with ABC you are not using the fullness of that gift. That would be likened to someone giving you a gift and you right in front of them pick out what you want and don’t want and give them back the things that you do not want.

Lastly, I wanted to say that I find your term “failed” very hurtful. Please when you have a chance go to you child and tell him or her that they are here because of a failure. Why not tell them that they are an accident. How disheartening. NFP did not “fail” at all nor is your child the result of a failure.

I appologize and I knew someone would jump with that word. The Creighton calls it “failure rate” so failed was only meant in that context. It is merely a matter of semantics. And I had a miscarriage so no baby to say sorry you should not be here to.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

I appologize and I knew someone would jump with that word. The Creighton calls it “failure rate” so failed was only meant in that context. It is merely a matter of semantics. And I had a miscarriage so no baby to say sorry you should not be here to.

I am truly sorry to hear about the miscarriage and trust me when I say that I did not mean that you would tell your child that they are a failure, I was simply using it to make the point that no child is a failure. It is just frustrating to me to hear that a child is an “accident.” You know.

I put the word in a different light and maybe should not have. Anyhow, I do understand what you are getting at with your post and with your frustrations.

It is not easy, life is not easy. There are sacrifices throughout our daily lives and we may have to go without sex when we want it, but it will not be the end of us. Frustrating, sure, of course, but is it the end of the world? Nope. We will live to share that embrace another day. So we show our love in other ways.

 

[PennitentMan]

I can understand your frustrations with NFP, honestly I can. But to think that we cannot go without sex, we cannot temper ourselves during certain times is, again, reducing us to mere animals. Of course it does not make you a bad person to be aroused and want sex, it makes you human.

A married couple cannot and should not go without sex. To think otherwise is incorrect.
Ref 1 Cor 7:5
“Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.”
NFP has, for me and others, been an inroad of Satan. Sure, maybe we are not as strong or as holy as the rest of you, but it’s a real issue.

Again, sex was a gift given to us by God and with ABC you are not using the fullness of that gift. That would be likened to someone giving you a gift and you right in front of them pick out what you want and don’t want and give them back the things that you do not want.

I disagree. Classic example is when Oprah gave her audience cars. She gave them the cars, but many couldn’t afford the insurance payments, etc…

God gives us a gift, but He also gives us responsibility. We need to be able to provide for the child. Physical needs, mental needs spiritual needs. If I know that another child would result in serious problems for my family, why can I not choose to not have another one…at least for the time being.

“Oh, but you can” you say, just use this method. Well, what’s the difference if I choose to use another method that proves more effective for me. As the head of my family, I am responsible for all my current family members.
And no, just because one uses ABC does not mean that one will easily abort. I revere life and could never abort a baby, ever, but if I have a responsibility to my family?

God gives us a gift, but what if I can’t accept that gift at a certain time…I’m not a sheep that just follows the woolly behind in front of me. I’m responsible for my family. Can I not say, thank you God, but I would feel better accepting this gift a bit later. Will God force that gift on us if we say that?

I was simply using it to make the point that no child is a failure. It is just frustrating to me to hear that a child is an “accident.” You know.

No child if a failure. Just because one didn’t plan it as such, doesn’t mean the child is a failure or unwanted or unloved. It’s two different things. We have a problem with the method, not the children at all.

It is not easy, life is not easy. There are sacrifices throughout our daily lives and we may have to go without sex when we want it, but it will not be the end of us. Frustrating, sure, of course, but is it the end of the world? Nope. We will live to share that embrace another day. So we show our love in other ways.

So, basically they are telling Marybee: “Suck it up. You are frustrated, sure, we can’t help you. We can only give you these tools. If you can’t find happiness with them like we have, sorry.”
Sex is one of the most important ways for a married couple to express their love for each other.

Of course we are frustrated, MM, the tools provided are limited. Not everyone can effectively use them. We are frustrated because as soon as one deviates for whatever reason, there are no leeway given, just sorry, keep using these tools. But if we keep using them we do it to the determent of our family.

I’m not lashing out at you, but it’s increasingly frustrating to bang my head against a brick wall, with no light at the end of the tunnel. That’s how I feel right now.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

A married couple cannot and should not go without sex. To think otherwise is incorrect.
Ref 1 Cor 7:5
“Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.”
NFP has, for me and others, been an inroad of Satan. Sure, maybe we are not as strong or as holy as the rest of you, but it’s a real issue.

A married couple can go without sex and whether or not they “should” is debatable. Mind you I am not saying that I want to be without sex in my marriage, not at all. I agree with the reference to the bible that you mentioned, but you must also know that it works against your arguement as well when it states “except perhaps by mutual consent for a time” which is referring to times of abstaining. I am not disagreeing that this is the place that Satan can enter in, he comes at us where we are most vulnerable. Wouldn’t you? Attack the point of least resistance, right? I am not claiming to be “holier than thou” by any means. I, too, to have struggled with the frustrations of NFP, been there, done that as they say.

I disagree. Classic example is when Oprah gave her audience cars. She gave them the cars, but many couldn’t afford the insurance payments, etc…

The gift of fertility far superscedes any gift Oprah can give. I see what you are trying to say here, but children are not expensive. I can attest to that.

God gives us a gift, but He also gives us responsibility. We need to be able to provide for the child. Physical needs, mental needs spiritual needs. If I know that another child would result in serious problems for my family, why can I not choose to not have another one…at least for the time being.

Who said that you cannot choose to have another child? You have that right. By using NFP you can avoid having a child for an extended period of time. Again, been there, done that. I know, I know you cannot have sex whenever you want to. Again, practice self control, respect, patience, learn other ways to love your wife. You are not going to die by not having sex.

“Oh, but you can” you say, just use this method. Well, what’s the difference if I choose to use another method that proves more effective for me. As the head of my family, I am responsible for all my current family members.

And as the head of every family God is responsible for all of His family members. You do not have the right to tell God that you are choosing a different “method” of birth control. It is not an opinion poll, God did not ask. You have the free will to choose to use ABC, but you must know that you are committing a mortal sin in doing so.

And no, just because one uses ABC does not mean that one will easily abort. I revere life and could never abort a baby, ever, but if I have a responsibility to my family?

You do have the ultimate responsibility to your family. I am not sure where this point that you have made is going. Several forms of ABC are abortificiants and do cause an abortion even though you are not aware of it. Take the birth control pill for example. How does the use of ABC allow you to be more “responsible” for your family? You are taking God out of your sex life. Out of the most intimate expression of the love of a husband and wife. Where do you take God out next?

God gives us a gift, but what if I can’t accept that gift at a certain time…I’m not a sheep that just follows the woolly behind in front of me. I’m responsible for my family. Can I not say, thank you God, but I would feel better accepting this gift a bit later. Will God force that gift on us if we say that?

I have no idea why God does what He does. I could not even begin to be in His mind. When you are using NFP, you know that the possibility of life is always there. Having sex during infertile times greatly reduces this possibility, but you need to know when that time is and if you have a valid reason (which you have listed) to avoid a pregnancy then that is when you should come together in the marital embrace with your wife.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

No child if a failure. Just because one didn’t plan it as such, doesn’t mean the child is a failure or unwanted or unloved. It’s two different things. We have a problem with the method, not the children at all.

So, basically they are telling Marybee: “Suck it up. You are frustrated, sure, we can’t help you. We can only give you these tools. If you can’t find happiness with them like we have, sorry.”
Sex is one of the most important ways for a married couple to express their love for each other.

I am not sure what you would like me to say. Should I sugar coat it for everyone? Should I pretend that everything is okay and you just do as you please? I do not know what to tell you, I am fortunate to not be in the situation that NFP “frustrates” me. My DW and I know her cycles, we have been able to plan pregnancies and avoid them ever since we started using NFP. Sure I have had to go without sex on days that I would have liked to have it and likewise for her, but we are still here. We survived. Sex is an important part of marriage, but it is not the most important. Getting your wife to heaven is more important. There are many ways to express your love without sex.

Of course we are frustrated, MM, the tools provided are limited. Not everyone can effectively use them. We are frustrated because as soon as one deviates for whatever reason, there are no leeway given, just sorry, keep using these tools. But if we keep using them we do it to the determent of our family.

I’m not lashing out at you, but it’s increasingly frustrating to bang my head against a brick wall, with no light at the end of the tunnel. That’s how I feel right now.

I do not take anything that you have said personally (aside from thinking that I am acting holier than though, but I am not even that offended by that) and can understand your frustrations. That is what I want you to understand is that I can sympathize with you. That does not change my stance on the issue, however. I will not change the beliefs that I have and do not think that NFP is a method that can be molded so to speak. The method(s) is/(are) what they are and can be tough at times. But a strong marriage can make it through any frustrations. It can be done.