About the god of the philosophers

[Gorgias]

To say that there is an ideal “excrement”, and each actual instance of the waste product is just an approximation of this ideal is unacceptably ridiculous.

Why? Is it just because you can’t wrap your head around the notion of an ‘ideal’ (i.e., a ‘form’) of certain things that seem unworthy of consideration? Weird…

The point of this thread is simple. Is there a way to start from the physical existence, applying reason and logic, and arrive at some non-physical, “supernatural” entity, who (or what) exists objectively, and is capable of interacting with our physical realm?

Aquinas beat you to this, ages ago.

 

[Vonsalza]

… At what point did it stop making any sense whatsoever to say that this is all for us?

I’m not sure it ever was. For what reasons would a Prime Mover move beyond its own?

 

[STT]

Whoever wishes to argue that consciousness is primary, and matter is secondary must bring up evidence for this assumption. If someone believes that matter is only an illusion, let’s take an “illusionary” baseball bat and smash his kneecaps. He will be “cured” of his misconception. And finally, this thread is NOT about discussing the capitalized “God”.

It is obvious that matter is not conscious. Do you think that a rock is conscious? Once you accept that consciousness cannot arises from matter then consciousness become primary. Therefore matter cannot be considered as basic principle for discussion since it is manifestation of consciousness.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Why? Is it just because you can’t wrap your head around the notion of an ‘ideal’ (i.e., a ‘form’) of certain things that seem unworthy of consideration? Weird…

What is the “ideal” form of excrement? What are its attributes?

Aquinas beat you to this, ages ago.

The trouble is that he tried and failed.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

It is obvious that matter is not conscious. Do you think that a rock is conscious? Once you accept that consciousness cannot arises from matter then consciousness become primary. Therefore matter cannot be considered as basic principle for discussion since it is manifestation of consciousness.

Are you familiar with “emergent attributes”?

I could illustrate the reality of matter… I wield the baseball bat and you supply your kneecaps. You will realize real quickly that matter in not an illusion. Or I can use that bat on your skull, and see if your consciousness will survive the experiment.

 

[Vonsalza]

Are you familiar with “emergent attributes”?

I could illustrate the reality of matter… I wield the baseball bat and you supply your kneecaps. You will realize real quickly that matter in not an illusion. Or I can use that bat on your skull, and see if your consciousness will survive the experiment.

In STT’s defense (even though he/she clearly doesn’t need it), some French nihilists in the 19th and 20th centuries that I learned this perspective from would argue with equal vigor that all of your sensory (name removed by moderator)uts are manifestations of consciousness.

The bat, the knee caps, the pain, all of it. Your example hasn’t shown them to be wrong. A decent little movie was made based somewhat on the subject. Ever saw 1999’s “The Matrix”? People live and die in a dream-state. If there was such a thing as objective reality, they never experienced it. The dreamers were positive, I mean bet-your-life positive that what they experienced was “real”. It wasn’t.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

In STT’s defense (even though he/she clearly doesn’t need it), some French nihilists in the 19th and 20th centuries that I learned this perspective from would argue with equal vigor that all of your sensory (name removed by moderator)uts are manifestations of consciousness.

And there are other insane people, who are convinced that they are… for example: “hens”. How to cure them? Simple: give them chickenfeed. They will either starve or get cured. Of course it is waste of time to try to argue with insane people.

The bat, the knee caps, the pain, all of it. Your example hasn’t shown them to be wrong.

Reality will show them that they are wrong. Death due to starvation WILL cure their insanity.

A decent little movie was made based somewhat on the subject. Ever saw 1999’s “The Matrix”? People live and die in a dream-state. If there was such a thing as objective reality, they never experienced it. The dreamers were positive, I mean bet-your-life positive that what they experienced was “real”. It wasn’t.

This is the age-old brain-in-the-vat question. Again, easy to solve. Suppose that your senses do not give you accurate information about the reality. HOW can you find out that your senses provide misinformation? What epistemological tool will you try to use? Are you going to use your senses to prove that they provide incorrect information? A surefire way to insanity.

So, you cannot use your senses. What else is there? What our senses provide about the reality IS the reality. Even if your senses are fed artificial data, you have only your senses to parse them. The question: “but what is the ‘real’ reality” is meaningless nonsense.

By the way, don’t even think about bringing up the question of a mirage in a hot desert. The information your eyes receive is accurate, only your interpretation of the raw data is erroneous.

 

[STT]

Are you familiar with “emergent attributes”?

I have been thinking of emergent phenomena for very long time. Either we have to accept that a rock also is conscious or we are at the end of the discussion. What make a person different from a rock is just formation of matter and type of matter, second one is really irrelevant. Formation however cannot manifest itself to something new so called consciousness. So we have to agree on the fact that matter is conscious, a rock, otherwise consciousness is primary and matter is manifestation of consciousness, or it is an illusion.

I could illustrate the reality of matter… I wield the baseball bat and you supply your kneecaps. You will realize real quickly that matter in not an illusion. Or I can use that bat on your skull, and see if your consciousness will survive the experiment.

That is not a good argument. You have never been dead so you cannot say what happen after death.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Formation however cannot manifest itself to something new so called consciousness.

How would you know that? The special formation of carbon atoms will give us either graphite or diamond, both having new attributes which are emergent.

That is not a good argument. You have never been dead so you cannot say what happen after death.

Actually, during my first heart attack I flatlined. I was “gone” until the paramedics gave my the “thumb of life” (and no, there was no white light). But we all know what happens when we die. The “formation” of the tissue deteriorates, the thoughts cease to exist. There is absolutely no evidence for any continuation.

If matter would only be an illusion created by the consciousness, you could easily cure any physical problem, hunger, disease, whatever… by changing your consciousness. You could levitate if you wanted to. But you cannot. You inability to overcome any physical problems should be sufficient proof that you tried to put the cart in front of the horse. Should be. If it is not, there is no reason to continue this conversation.

 

[STT]

How would you know that? The special formation of carbon atoms will give us either graphite or diamond, both having new attributes which are emergent.

The formation of matter only changes the way that matter interact with an external force, electromagnetic force for example. There is nothing new there.

Actually, during my first heart attack I flatlined. I was “gone” until the paramedics gave my the “thumb of life” (and no, there was no white light). But we all know what happens when we die. The “formation” of the tissue deteriorates, the thoughts cease to exist. There is absolutely no evidence for any continuation.

You haven’t been dead yet.

If matter would only be an illusion created by the consciousness, you could easily cure any physical problem, hunger, disease, whatever… by changing your consciousness. You could levitate if you wanted to. But you cannot. You inability to overcome any physical problems should be sufficient proof that you tried to put the cart in front of the horse. Should be. If it is not, there is no reason to continue this conversation.

Once I had out of body experience. I could experience and see that I was as tall as a three stories building. Of course my body didn’t stretch that long. There have been being enormous reports on the near death experience. How a person could experience to be outside of his body if the body causes the experience?

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

The formation of matter only changes the way that matter interact with an external force, electromagnetic force for example. There is nothing new there.

That is sufficient for the consciousness to emerge. Try to “disturb” the electro-chemical functionality of the brain with a few well-chosen molecules and your consciousness flies out the window. Once those molecules are metabolized, the functionality of the consciousness returns.

You haven’t been dead yet.

No, have you? If you have not, what grounds do you have to talk about what happens after death?

Once I had out of body experience. I could experience and see that I was as tall as a three stories building. Of course my body didn’t stretch that long. There have been being enormous reports on the near death experience. How a person could experience to be outside of his body if the body causes the experience?

Every night I dream. It is a result of the electro-chemical activity of the brain (REM sleep). As I said, if you REALLY think that matter is just an illusion caused by this undefined consciousness, try to live according to this principle. When you feel hunger or thirst, just use your consciousness to get rid of it. No “matter” (food or drink) should be necessary. How long would you live? Not very long, I predict.

 

[Gorgias]

What is the “ideal” form of excrement? What are its attributes?

The trouble is that he tried and failed.

Well… we’ll see how much we can improve on his attempt in this thread…

p.s., so… we’ve gone on for what – three pages now? – talking about what you want to talk about. When are we gonna start in on the project you’re proposing?

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Where and what are the attributes?

Well… we’ll see how much we can improve on his attempt in this thread…

p.s., so… we’ve gone on for what – three pages now? – talking about what you want to talk about. When are we gonna start in on the project you’re proposing?

I am here, waiting and willing. Maybe you would want to present a logical and rational argument for this assumed faceless creator who started this whole physical shebang? You might want to present an argument “WHY” is the physical universe insufficient? Because Aquinas could not perform this “trick”.

 

[Vonsalza]

I am here, waiting and willing. Maybe you would want to present a logical and rational argument for this assumed faceless creator who started this whole physical shebang? You might want to present an argument “WHY” is the physical universe insufficient? Because Aquinas could not perform this “trick”.

Looks at Prime Mover Theory

Well, as effect requires cause, anyone willing to roll this idea out?

 

[STT]

That is sufficient for the consciousness to emerge. Try to “disturb” the electro-chemical functionality of the brain with a few well-chosen molecules and your consciousness flies out the window. Once those molecules are metabolized, the functionality of the consciousness returns.

That only means that we could experience something when our brains are disturbed. That doesn’t mean that consciousness arises from brain activity.

No, have you? If you have not, what grounds do you have to talk about what happens after death?

I would say that I don’t know. I however had enough spiritual experiences to be sure that there is something after death.

Every night I dream. It is a result of the electro-chemical activity of the brain (REM sleep). As I said, if you REALLY think that matter is just an illusion caused by this undefined consciousness, try to live according to this principle. When you feel hunger or thirst, just use your consciousness to get rid of it. No “matter” (food or drink) should be necessary. How long would you live? Not very long, I predict.

As I said before too, that is not a good argument. People use the same approach to argue in favor of free will.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Looks at Prime Mover Theory

Get down to the details. I am not interested in making guesses to find out what you mean, and what your argument might be.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

That only means that we could experience something when our brains are disturbed.

Our brain is constantly “disturbed”. If you are placed into an environment without any external stimuli, you will go crazy in a very short time. And you consciousness will disappear.

That doesn’t mean that consciousness arises from brain activity.

Of course it does.

As I said before too, that is not a good argument.

And you were wrong. Try to overcome the “illusion” of the material world by sheer consciousness only, and come back when you succeed.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Actually, during my first heart attack I flatlined. I was “gone” until the paramedics gave my the “thumb of life” (and no, there was no white light). But we all know what happens when we die. The “formation” of the tissue deteriorates, the thoughts cease to exist. There is absolutely no evidence for any continuation.

A flatline reading by itself does not mean ‘death’ so as STT brought up before, you’ve never been dead, as in real death. While you did not experience a white light but perhaps you did have other mental experiences that you just simply don’t remember. No different than how some don’t remember their dreams. Meanwhile, others, just as in your case have reported mental experiences during cardiac arrest.

There’s also emerging evidence that the brain function can change in response to our will (how we want to think and behave) even in the midst of neurological disorders. This indicates to me that consciousness is not totally dependent on the brain.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

There’s also emerging evidence that the brain function can change in response to our will (how we want to think and behave) even in the midst of neurological disorders. This indicates to me that consciousness is not totally dependent on the brain.

Your will IS a brain function. Every stimulus makes subtle modifications to the brain: new connections develop. When you think, you use these neural pathways, which activity will create other connections. Nothing supernatural about it.

 

[davidv]

Your will IS a brain function. Every stimulus makes subtle modifications to the brain: new connections develop. When you think, you use these neural pathways, which activity will create other connections. Nothing supernatural about it.

Pretty bold claim. What evidence do you have that it is correct?