About to become an Atheist PLEASE HELP!

[atheistgirl]

Problem is, of course, the distant witnesses who, by their own testimony, were not expecting anything to happen. One must wonder why the atmosphere was behaving so erratically over Fatima and no where else in the World, before or since!

There’s some very good possible explanations here, all natural, along with the fact it’s noted not everyone there saw anything unusual at all.

physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-149860.html

You believe it, I don’t. The evidence is good enough for you, it isn’t for me. I’m not trying to change your opinion, and you won’t change mine.

Let’s move on.

Dawkins is wrong when he says that “they had been persuaded to stare at the sun, which can’t have done much for the eyesight.” Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett who, unlike Dawkins, was there that day stated, “turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused…” The witnesses were not staring into the sun.

Now that’s just quote mining. The rest of that quote goes on to say:

"Suddenly I heard the uproar of thousands of voices, and I saw the whole multitude spread out in that vast space at my feet…turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused, and look at the sun on the other side. I turned around, too, toward the point commanding their gaze and I could see the sun, like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which gleamed without hurting the sight. It could not be confused with the sun seen through a fog (there was no fog at that moment), for it was neither veiled nor dim. At Fatima, it kept its light and heat, and stood out clearly in the sky, with a sharp edge, like a large gaming table. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without hurting the eyes or damaging the retina.

They stared at the sun.

And we know what that does to the eye, whether the viewer is aware or not.

Amelia Earhart’s birthday was yesterday

One of my heroines

You can claim that the Gospels were not historical, but then again, there are four of them.

Of which 3 of them copied from each other and used a shared source.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

The aim of life isn’t to avoid suffering. If we believe in God, pray, and do not get the answer we want, it is an exercise of our faith to trust that God knows better than we do.

I totally get that, and understand and respect this is what believers think.

For me, it serves to further undermine the presence of any loving caring Deity.

Do you think that you “have it right” and they don’t? If so, why?

Absolutely not.

I’m aware of the great strength and perseverence peoples faith has given them.

For them, it’s a source of great comfort and allows then to endure.

I would never knock that, or mock it, or claim I know better than them.

I’m in favor of whatever it takes to get people through the hellhole. For some, it might be a picture of a loved one, for others, it might be a promise made to someone special they’re determined to keep, for others it’s their own mental strength and reserves, and yet others it’s their faith in a Deity.

We all have ways and means of getting through the hard times and if whatever works for the individual is what matters.

I would never knock someones faith. Not least because I can’t offer a shred of evidence that I’m right and they’re wrong.

But in all honesty - I’ve personally not seen a shred of evidence either that suggests to me there is any kind of a Deity.

Sarah x

 

[paul_c]

I totally get that, and understand and respect this is what believers think.

For me, it serves to further undermine the presence of any loving caring Deity.

Absolutely not.

I’m aware of the great strength and perseverence peoples faith has given them.

For them, it’s a source of great comfort and allows then to endure.

I would never knock that, or mock it, or claim I know better than them.

I’m in favor of whatever it takes to get people through the hellhole. For some, it might be a picture of a loved one, for others, it might be a promise made to someone special they’re determined to keep, for others it’s their own mental strength and reserves, and yet others it’s their faith in a Deity.

We all have ways and means of getting through the hard times and if whatever works for the individual is what matters.

I would never knock someones faith. Not least because I can’t offer a shred of evidence that I’m right and they’re wrong.

But in all honesty - I’ve personally not seen a shred of evidence either that suggests to me there is any kind of a Deity.

Sarah x

Two comments:
Have you ever asked the question: " Why?" Not how? not who? not what? not where? But why? As in why do I exist? and Why do people suffer?

Because history answers the Who? and the where? Science answers the what? and the How? But theology answers the Why?

You bring up the point that people use religion to get them through the hard times. Well its true,but maybe not for the reasons you think. Catholicism gives you perspective that goes beyond the day to day challenges of life. It gives you a meaning for life (to know and to love and become unified with God and your neighbors) that transcends a mere desire for comfort, which is all an atheist can hope for in life. And remember, comfort is relative. Those that have money, inevitably seek more of it and can never be satisfied. That is because money and material things can never satisfy the soul - only love does that.

The atheist has no hope of anything but comfort

As for the proof that there is a God, well its all around you in such abundance that its hidden in plain site. Think about it. What gives that spark of life that animates the creature but not the corpse? What is it that gives every human a conscience, crying out for justice when we contemplate evil? What is it that gives order to creation, regulating the laws of nature and the flow of the seasons. If you have studied science, you know that matter tends toward equilibrium and chaos without power power and intellect to order it. You see, the scientific method is to measure and observe but God is two big to do either. But we can measure and observe his works, just as we can’t observe the wind, but we can see its effects on other things. We can see the common building blocks of the universe. We can observe and measure the laws that God put in place, like the law of gravity. And we can also use reason to find God. We can follow Thomas Aquinas’ logic of the God, the prime mover, for instance.

 

[atheistgirl]

The atheist has no hope of anything but comfort.

Nonsense.

Our lives (mine and every atheist I know) are filled with love, given and received, every minute of every day. Real love you can feel and respond to, from real people.

Comfort???

I know atheists that don’t even own the clothes on their backs that live out of dumpsters, hoping for something soft because their meth mouth has every tooth they have rotted in their heads.

They live in continuous pain and discomfort from disease and malnurishment.

And they’re more full of love for their fellow man than a lot of so called ‘‘believers’’ I know. Some we’ve got cleaned up, who are now holding down work, have regained their sense of pride, and give back more than they ever got to their communities.

They’re not desiring comfort! They’re actively working to save young adults from falling into the same traps they did, they’re actively trying to improve their lives at great discomfort to themselves.

The rest of your comments are answered more than adequately by the E word which we’re not allowed to discuss, and the workings of the body brain and mind. All natural. All based in nature. No supernatural entity required.

The comment regarding money - right, like atheists don’t give of their money, time, skill, expertize, and even their lives, for their fellow man.

As to why we’re here - there’s no reason what so ever. None. Absolutely none what so ever.

No plan, no higher purpose, no ultimate goal.

Nature the earth and the universe don’t know we’re here and don’t care.

Nature shows us this time and time again.

We’ve evolved, we live, we die.

And we’re able to make the most of it while we’re here.

Some do, some don’t.

Some have no thought but for themselves, some think highly of the coming generations and the stewardship of the land for the time we have it.

I’m here - so I’m sure as heck making the most of it, along with my family, friends, loved ones and everyone I come in contact with.

There’s no reason for me to be here. None what so ever.

But now I am, hey, let’s enjoy it, have some fun, do some good, and leave the place in better shape than we found it for those coming after us.

Because when I’m dead, that’s it. Game over.

Besides, when the sun cools sufficiently in a few billion years, our entire solar system will be obliterared.

It’s all going to end as we know it.

Of course, clever animals that we are, I strongly suspect we’ll have colonized other planets by then.

You asked did I ever ask why? Of couse. And that’s my answer.

There is no reason why I am here at all.

But seeing as I am - and seeing as I’m capable of having fun, making a difference, doing some good, enjoying myself, improving things around me, and bringing beautiful healthy intelligent children into the world who will in turn make the world they inherit better, why not?

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

In its essence, this is just an extension of the question, “Why does God allow evil in the world?” The answer is pretty straight forward - because he wants man to have free will.

I allowed for free will. It wasn’t compromised. The person who abducted her wasn’t prevented from doing so.

So why not end the agonizing suffering now, after 5 years. They haven’t suffered enough?

Within their grief, they are demonstrating great love and many others have demonstrated love toward them.

I’m reminded of a minister who gave up her faith and left the church after her daughter was raped and murdered, as no loving God could allow such a thing to happen to a precious child. She didn’t demonstrate any great love. She railed against the God she had believed in and railed against the Church.

But God in his greatness is able to create opportunities to love even in the worst of circumstances.

As a mother of daughters, this makes me furious.

Were anything like that to happen to one of mine, and I were a believer, do you think I’d be remotely interested in any love opportunites the God I believed in might be looking to create, or do you think I could care less about anything except getting my daughter back safe, well and unharmed. And quickly!

As a non believer, I can tell you right now were a believer to say something like that to me, in the midst of my child gone missing, well, no, I’ll say no more

Sarah x

 

[paul_c]

Nonsense.

Our lives (mine and every atheist I know) are filled with love, given and received, every minute of every day. Real love you can feel and respond to, from real people.

Comfort???

I know atheists that don’t even own the clothes on their backs that live out of dumpsters, hoping for something soft because their meth mouth has every tooth they have rotted in their heads.

They live in continuous pain and discomfort from disease and malnurishment.

And they’re more full of love for their fellow man than a lot of so called ‘‘believers’’ I know. Some we’ve got cleaned up, who are now holding down work, have regained their sense of pride, and give back more than they ever got to their communities.

They’re not desiring comfort! They’re actively working to save young adults from falling into the same traps they did, they’re actively trying to improve their lives at great discomfort to themselves.

The rest of your comments are answered more than adequately by the E word which we’re not allowed to discuss, and the workings of the body brain and mind. All natural. All based in nature. No supernatural entity required.

The comment regarding money - right, like atheists don’t give of their money, time, skill, expertize, and even their lives, for their fellow man.

As to why we’re here - there’s no reason what so ever. None. Absolutely none what so ever.

No plan, no higher purpose, no ultimate goal.

Nature the earth and the universe don’t know we’re here and don’t care.

Nature shows us this time and time again.

We’ve evolved, we live, we die.

And we’re able to make the most of it while we’re here.

Some do, some don’t.

Some have no thought but for themselves, some think highly of the coming generations and the stewardship of the land for the time we have it.

I’m here - so I’m sure as heck making the most of it, along with my family, friends, loved ones and everyone I come in contact with.

There’s no reason for me to be here. None what so ever.

But now I am, hey, let’s enjoy it, have some fun, do some good, and leave the place in better shape than we found it for those coming after us.

Because when I’m dead, that’s it. Game over.

Besides, when the sun cools sufficiently in a few billion years, our entire solar system will be obliterared.

It’s all going to end as we know it.

Of course, clever animals that we are, I strongly suspect we’ll have colonized other planets by then.

You asked did I ever ask why? Of couse. And that’s my answer.

There is no reason why I am here at all.

But seeing as I am - and seeing as I’m capable of having fun, making a difference, doing some good, enjoying myself, improving things around me, and bringing beautiful healthy intelligent children into the world who will in turn make the world they inherit better, why not?

Sarah x

I’m sorry but you are highly inconsistent in your arguments.

If there is no reason for your existence, then how can anything matter?
How can you possibly make a difference if there is no higher purpose? Who would know or tell.

How can you do good if there is no arbiter of what is good?

So, isn’t it true that you think you have a purpose: to make things better.

But that’s a half thought. To make things better to what end? What makes them better? Is the world a better place because the people are more comfortable, have homes, all they want to eat, access to health care? What do you value? And why do you value it?

Do you really in your heart of hearts believe that anything exists without having a purpose?

 

[NonServiam]

If there is no reason for your existence, then how can anything matter?

The phenomenon of “mattering” is entirely individual and subjective. Things only “matter” to a person. It makes no difference whether there is some “higher purpose” or “higher being” out there: the things that matter to me still matter to me now, and the fact that they might not last forever doesn’t change that one little bit.

How can you possibly make a difference if there is no higher purpose? Who would know or tell.

I would.

How can you do good if there is no arbiter of what is good?

I’m the arbiter of what I consider good.

So, isn’t it true that you think you have a purpose: to make things better.

But not some purpose imposed on us from without: a purpose that we choose because we like living in the kind of world that we label as “better.”

Do you really in your heart of hearts believe that anything exists without having a purpose?

I don’t think you “get it.” You still insist on reading the words of atheists through your very limited lens.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Since you have no concrete, testable, etc. evidence to support the non-existence of God, you are relying on your reasoning as the acceptable basis. You consider your reasoning as “evidence”, so to speak, for doubt.
I also include my reasoning in my “evidence” for belief.

I guess what I don’t understand is that you seem to have a double standard. Believers in God must have “indisputable peer reviewed scientific evidence” for their stance to have any credible support or claim to validity. But you do not have to provide the same type of evidence.

What about Lanciano?

zenit.org/article-12933?l=english

Physician Tells of Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano

Edoardo Linoli Verified Authenticity of the Phenomenon

ROME, MAY 5, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Dr. Edoardo Linoli says he held real cardiac tissue in his hands, when some years ago he analyzed the relics of the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, Italy.

The phenomenon dates back to the eighth century. A Basilian monk, who had doubts about the real presence of Christ in the sacred species, was offering Mass, in a church dedicated to St. Legontian in the town of Lanciano.

When he pronounced the words of the consecration, the host was miraculously changed into physical flesh and the wine into physical blood.

Later the blood coagulated and the flesh remained the same. These relics were kept in the cathedral.

Linoli, a professor of anatomy and pathological histology, and of chemistry and clinical microscopy, and former head of the Laboratory of Pathological Anatomy at the Hospital of Arezzo, is the only doctor who has analyzed the relics of the miracle of Lanciano. His findings have stirred interest in the scientific world.

At the initiative of Archbishop Pacifico Perantoni of Lanciano, and of the provincial minister of the Franciscan Conventuals of Abruzzo, and with authorization from Rome, in November 1970 the Franciscans of Lanciano decided to have the relics examined scientifically.

Linoli was entrusted with the study. He was assisted by Dr. Ruggero Bertelli, retired professor of human anatomy at the University of Siena.

Linoli extracted parts of the relics with great care and then analyzed the remains of “miraculous flesh and blood.” He presented his findings on March 4, 1971.

His study confirmed that the flesh and blood were of human origin. The flesh was unequivocally cardiac tissue, and the blood was of type AB.

Consulted by ZENIT, Linoli explained that “as regards the flesh, I had in my hand the endocardium. Therefore, there is no doubt at all that it is cardiac tissue.”

In regard to the blood, the scientist emphasized that “the blood group is the same as that of the man of the holy Shroud of Turin, and it is particular because it has the characteristics of a man who was born and lived in the Middle East regions.”

“The AB blood group of the inhabitants of the area in fact has a percentage that extends from 0.5% to 1%, while in Palestine and the regions of the Middle East it is 14-15%,” Linoli said.

Linoli’s analysis revealed no traces of preservatives in the elements, meaning that the blood could not have been extracted from a corpse, because it would have been rapidly altered.

Linoli’s report was published in “Quaderni Sclavo di Diagnostica Clinica e di Laboratori” in 1971.

In 1973, the Higher Council of the World Health Organization (WHO) appointed a scientific commission to verify the Italian doctor’s conclusions. The work was carried out over 15 months with a total of 500 examinations. The conclusions of all the researches confirmed what had been stated and published in Italy.

The extract of the scientific research of WHO’s medical commission was published in New York and Geneva in 1976, confirming science’s inability to explain the phenomenon.

 

[Vouthon]

Brother Brockman,

Read these words of the great Catholic mystic Johannes Tauler. Perhaps you have reached a stage in your life similar to the one outlined by him in the second paragraph? Did you ever feel God in your life before? Or have you always been searching? Was there every certainity in the past? Did you used to experience great joy and conviction that God exists that has since been lost and you are now in great distress?

If so then this period of trial you are going through, this inner persecution, may be God’s Will and indeed could be preparation for great light.

Read this carefully. Does the middle section (part 2) apply?

"…Now we intend to talk about the three stages that a person can be at - the lowest, the middle, or the highest. The first stage of an interior virtuous life that leads one directly to close proximity to God happens when a person turns to the marvellous works and signs of inexpressible gifts and effusions of the hidden goodness of God. Out of this is born a state of soul called jubilatio. The second stage is poverty of spirit and a strange abandonment by God that leaves the spirit tortured and naked. The third stage is the transformation to a divine-like existence, into a unity of the created spirit with the very being of the spirit of God. This one can call a conversion to an essentially higher plane. And one cannot imagine that those who right reach this stage could ever fall away from God.

(1)In the first stage, that of jubilatio, a person becomes intensely aware of the dear signs of his love that god has marvellously given us in the heavens and on earth, how marvellously much good he has done for us and all creatures, how everything blossoms, sprouts forth, and is filled with God, and how unimaginable the generosity of God has inundated all creatures with his great gifts and how God has gone searching for him, showered him with gifts, carried him, advised him, waited for him, cared for him…and to what inexpressible nearness he has invited him, and how the most Holy God has expectantly awaited him eternally so that he might be filled with joy forever. And when a person experiences this fully through loving insight, there is born in him great genuine joy. The person who perceives these things with genuine love is so flooded with an interior joy that his frail body cannot contain this joy and erupts in its own way…And in this way our Lord showers him with great sweetness and gives him inwardly an embrace and palpable
union. Thus does God lure, pull and yank a person, first of all out of himself, and then out of all dissimilarity to himself…

(2) The second stage is like this: When God has drawn a person so far away from all things, and he is no longer a child and he has been strengthened with the comfort of sweetness. Then indeed one gives him coarse rye bread. He has become a man and has reached maturity. Solid, strong food is what is good and useful for a grown man. He shouldn’t be given milk and soft bread any longer, and such is withheld from him. He is then led on a terribly wild path, very gloomy and forsaken. And on this path God takes back from him everything that he had ever given him. Then and there the person is left so completely to himself that he loses all notion of God and gets into such a disstressful state that he cannot remember whether things had ever gone right for him, so as not to know any more if he were ever on the right path, whether he has a God or not, nor does he know if God does or does not exist, or if he is alive or dead and whether he is the same person; and he suffers such incredible pain that this whole wide world is too confining for him. A very strange sorrow comes over him that makes him think that the whole world in its expanse oppresses him. He neither has any feeling for nor knowledge of God, and he has no liking for any other things and even all the rest seems repugnant to him, so that it seems that he is a prisoners between two walls. It seems to him that he is suspended between two walls with a sword in back of him and a sharp spear in front. What does he do then? He can go neither forward nor back. He can only sit down and say, “Hail, bitterer bitterness, full of grace!” If there could be hell in this life, this would seem to be more than hell - to be bereft of loving and the good thing loved. Anything that one might say to such a person would console him about as much as a stone. And he could stand even less hearing about creatures. The more the sense of and feel for God stood formerly in the foreground, the greater and more unendurable are the bitterness and misery of this abandonment.

Even then take heart! The Lord is certainly nearby. Hold fast to the support of the true living faith. Things will be fine. But it is unbelievable to the poor soul in its tortured state that this unbearable darkness could ever turn into light.

(3) When our Lord has prepared a person in this unbearable state of misery - for this prepares him much better than all the spiritual practices that all people might be able to accomplish - then our Lord comes and leads him to the third stage. In this stage the Lord removes the cloak from his eyes and reveals the truth to him. Bright sunshine appears and lifts him right out of all his misery. It seems to this person just as though the Lord had raised him from the dead. In this stage the Lord leads a person out of himself into
himself. He makes him forget all his former loneliness and heals all his wounds. God thus draws the person out of his human mode into a divine mode, out of all misery into divine security. Here a person becomes so divinized that everything he is and does God does and is in him. And he is lifted up so far above his natural state that he becomes through Grace what God in his essence is by nature. In this state a person feels and is aware that he has lost himself and does not at all feel himself or is he aware of himself. He is aware of nothing but one simple Being.

Children, to be truly in this stage is the deepest ground of genuine humility and annihilation. This, in truth, cannot be grasped by the senses. For here he receives the most profound insight possible into his nothingness. Here he sinks as deep as it is possible into the ground of humility; the deeper, the higher, because here high and deep are one and the same…In this state one achieves true unity of prayer spoken of in the epistle that truly brings it about that a person becomes one with God…"

*** - Johannes Tauler (c.1300-1361), Catholic mystic and Dominican***

 

[Nita]

What about Lanciano?

zenit.org/article-12933?l=english

There’s no point in mentioning miracles because they (atheists on this thread) don’t accept them.
It’s really kind of strange. In one breath they maintain that if God exists there should be at least some extraordinary signs to prove His existence. But, as soon as they are presented with some of those extraordinary signs (miracles) they dream up stories to say they were hallucinations, or natural events, or just… Sometimes it’s laughable.
And the thing I find strangest of all is that they contend that if the supernatural event would have occurred it would have had to obey natural laws!!! (Eg. Fatima. Natural effect on eyes from staring at sun; sun movement detectable everywhere; and on and on.) It’s like missing the whole point of a what a supernatural miracle is; it goes beyond, supercedes the natural law. They don’t follow the natural law. If the miracle at Fatima had followed the natural laws it would have been a natural event, not a supernatural one.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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