About to give up on my faith

[SpaghettiCowboy]

I appreciate your comments, Roguish. Your analysis is spot on in many ways.

It’s always possible to reinterpret the signs of God’s presence in your life as just “coincidence” or “imagination” or some other notion that undoes the meaning you once saw. The modern world eagerly supplies you with concepts that enable you to replace your intuition that God is present, with the “sober knowledge” that there is nothing. But that’s a choice you make, at least initially. Either option becomes a habit and then it’s longer be easy to choose the alternative.

I agree with this.

You’ve let the poison of “reasonable doubt” into your heart, and now you notice that something has gone missing: your natural confidence in God.

I think I’ve somewhat misstated one aspect of my situation. My faith, if I can really call it that, was always more on the intellectual level from the beginning. Any “sense” of God present that I may have subsequently reinterpreted as my “imagination” left me fairly early. Since then, I have much theology, but seemingly little faith. So I don’t know if I every really had that “natural” confidence; it was always intellectual confidence, waiting for the real stuff-- the Holy Spirit, perhaps-- to infuse me.

Thus, the reevaluation which has brought me to the brink of “leaving” is more the result of a collision between my largely superficial faith and a realization of my hypocrisy.

Trust innocence and naturalness, not “mature and rational thought”. Christ said we must revert to being like little children. Take that very seriously.

Re-learn to retreat into the citadel of innocence & simplicity.

I have much difficulty embracing this teaching. I cannot believe that Jesus meant, even metaphorically, for us to infantilize our minds . I guess I’ve too much will and ego in the way.

 

[Dan_Defender]

I found that without God, nothing in life makes sense : no good to balance evil, no life after death, no underlying reasons why anything happens.

Thanks for witnessing to that. The atheists posting on CAF would make us believe that they are as fulfilled as anybody else, but the truth is, without God there is no hope for eternal life and therefore this earthly life becomes meaningless.

 

[SpaghettiCowboy]

I’ve been thinking about this statement since you wrote it:

I became convicted by the internal coherency of all of it.

Could you elaborate a bit?

 

[SpaghettiCowboy]

I appreciate your comments. You seem to be going in the opposite direction from me. I hope things turn out well for you.

It may be a bad comparison, but people who want to make a life-altering decision (especially a potentially harmful one) don’t post about it online, they simply get on with it. The fact that you are posting about it says you’re not so sure, despite having declared you reached a “conclusion”. I don’t think you really have.

Perhaps I did not explain it well in the initial post. My conclusion had to do with whether or not those few times I thought I had a personal interaction with God were “true” or not. I concluded that they were not.

So I am here because I have not reached the big conclusion: to leave the Church. I am hoping that someone will have words that will lead to a special insight for me or prompt me to consider something in a way that I’ve never considered it before.

You’ve all been so good as to engage with me and I am grateful. I’m not sure I’ve read those words yet-- further reflection is necessary-- but you all have given me quite a bit to think about.

 

[SpaghettiCowboy]

Thank you, sir, for taking the time to participate in this discussion. You offered up Pascal’s Wager as a starting point from which to work back to the faith.

I think an important quote of Pascal’s is that “I should be much more afraid of being mistaken and then finding out that Christianity is true than of being mistaken in believing it to be true.” Just some food for thought.

I am afraid of being mistaken, but better to be mistaken with integrity than being a cynical believer betting on his eternal reward. I’m sure you proposed the Wager with the best of intentions, but it essentially puts me back where I already am-- persevering in an ambivalent belief in the hope that inspiration will strike and a true faith will emerge somehow. Wouldn’t Jesus see through this?

 

[MarkoB0726]

Yep me too…getting tired of having prayers go unanswered.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

This is something I’ve struggled with too, and I so wish I had an easy answer for you, because this can be a very distressing crossroads.

This is just my own little testimony, FWIW, but the “road back” for me consisted of reading the words of people who had been through extreme injustice and managed to keep their humanity and sanity and relationship with God intact (like for instance, Immaculee Ilabageza, who survived the Rwandan genocide).

And it wasn’t a case of “wow this book totally changed everything!”. It was still something that took time, for heart-wounds to heal, etc.

But in either case, I’ll remember you in my prayers ray:t2:ray:t2:ray:t2:

 

[Bluebright]

This is a temptation. I will pray for you. I challenge you to pray every day for a month at least 15 minutes of meditation ( you can divide it up doesn’t need to be all at once) and see if you still want to leave. God is your friend, if you don’t talk to him how can you expect to hear what he says? Don’t make Gods spirit sad.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Thank you, sir, for taking the time to participate in this discussion. You offered up Pascal’s Wager as a starting point from which to work back to the faith.

Bishop Barron is sharing a different quote from Pascal this morning in his “Daily Gospel Reflections”:

“The heart has its reasons that reason knows not.”

People use intuition. People have emotions. People have pride.

Given the same evidence, people will make a variety of decisions for a variety of reasons. People can easily make decisions that seem unreasonable. People often can’t explain their reasons for decisions. Explicit, explainable facts and logic explain only some decisions. My observation is that intuition, emotions, pride and reasons unknown and indescribable drive many human decisions.

The motivations of the heart are many. People can have hidden motives. The LORD knows people’s motives (1 Corinthians 4:5).

Faith at times is driven at times by both human judgment of the evidence and human intuition. The well-known Meyers-Briggs test assesses people on the basis of how much they depend on intuition. We all use a certain amount of human intuition. People can be “wise in their own conceits”.

“All one’s ways are pure in their own eyes, but the measurer of motives is the LORD.” (Proverbs 16:2)

The LORD knows the “reasons of the heart” for our faith or unbelief.

 

[Roguish]

Thus, the reevaluation which has brought me to the brink of “leaving” is more the result of a collision between my largely superficial faith and a realization of my hypocrisy.

I understand better now where you’re coming from, and I think your problem is not uncommon. Like anyone raised in the modern world, you’ve been thoroughly trained to trust your faculty of reason much more than your intuition, and so it is mainly (or entirely) through reason that you have related to Catholicism up to this point in your life. This may have been adequate for many years, but in the face of your current self-skepticism (if I may call it that) it lacks the power to maintain your faith — or so it seems.

But maybe you’re being too harsh on yourself? You speak of your “hypocrisy”. But hypocrisy is the feigning of piety. I don’t think that applies to you at all. Furthermor, maybe there is a part of your faith that isn’t just intellectual, but does come from a deeper place? Why else would you be hesitant about leaving, as you clearly are? Maybe you can take this hesitation, this reluctance to just walk away, as a good sign, and leave it at that for now? Maybe it is alright to stick with faith even if you can’t explain (not even to yourself) why? Maybe you can be at peace with that? And who knows, it might evolve. Perhaps that silent aspect of your faith will deepen and become more conscious. Perhaps your reason will align more with your intuition in the future, or perhaps the need to have it align will fade.

I cannot believe that Jesus meant, even metaphorically, for us to infantilize our minds . I guess I’ve too much will and ego in the way

Child-likeness does not mean we must become infantile. It means we must go back to trusting our intuition more than our reason, as children typically do until the heavily reason-oriented education system “reprograms” them. Going back to the primacy of intuition is especially important when intuition and reason aren’t in agreement. Because, while the Church is right to teach that reason can confirm faith and therefore be compatible with it, reason can also attack faith, while intuition absolutely cannot. And as you seem to be aware, there’s an element of wilfulness or “ego” (which I prefer to call pride) at play. Having a well-informed, well-reasoned opinion on something appeals to a subtle vanity in us.

Christ also told us to be “wise as serpents yet harmless as doves.” (Matthew 10:16) Child-likeness is not naïve; it is actually quite wise, but in a spontaneous rather than a scholarly way.

 

[SpaghettiCowboy]

Have you considered maybe you’re overthinking it? Love your wife, love God, live your life.

Yes. That’s what my wife has been trying to tell me for years. (She is generally wiser than I.)

I do love my wife, my children, my grandchildren, and my friends. They are all real and imminently a part of my life. For whatever reason, I’ve not been able to develop a similar sense of God-- He remains more like an abstract concept to me.

 

[SpaghettiCowboy]

the “road back” for me consisted of reading the words of people who had been through extreme injustice and managed to keep their humanity and sanity and relationship with God intact (like for instance, Immaculee Ilabageza, who survived the Rwandan genocide).

This is a good suggestion, thank you. I’m particularly attracted to the specific example you mentioned. I intend to follow through.

 

[SpaghettiCowboy]

I understand better now where you’re coming from

You understand quite well, I would say, and I appreciate the effort you’re making in this dialogue. Your post deserves a thoughtful reply which I won’t be able to do until later.

 

[SheepsCousin]

Can I suggest you look into Fatima a bit? The miracle of the sun for example is very convincing and some of the predictions are quite amazing. Be careful with your sources on this, though, I’ve seen a Protestant group add in a whole word into what Our Lady said to try prove the apparitions fake.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I do love my wife, my children, my grandchildren, and my friends. They are all real and imminently a part of my life. For whatever reason, I’ve not been able to develop a similar sense of God-- He remains more like an abstract concept to me.

Well, Msgr John Esseff, a protege of Padre Pio, has said repeatedly at retreats that a married person can best love God by loving their spouse.
Your real and immediate love for your family and other loved ones IS an experience of God and his love.

 

[roamin_cath]

I have same issues in trying to conceive a personal God (as in the Father anyway). Focusing more on Jesus might help overcome that issue.

Look at your own relationship with the ants living in your yard. You mow over them, step on them, flood their anthills, occasionally drop some food. They feel the effects of your presence but can’t understand your presence itself. They lack the perspective, due to their limited nature, to understand. It’s not a flaw, it’s simply the way they were created. So it largely is with us and God.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Focusing more on Jesus might help overcome that issue.

Yes, this is a huge reason why Jesus was sent to us here on earth.
Jesus is God in a more comprehensible form.

 

[SpaghettiCowboy]

I have same issues in trying to conceive a personal God (as in the Father anyway). Focusing more on Jesus might help overcome that issue.

I agree and have been trying to do that for a while now. I even went to the extent a few years ago of taking the Gospel of Mark, editing out everything except Jesus’ direct sayings and adding my own brief comments to remind me of the context, all in an effort to focus on Jesus. (I like Mark because I think it presents Jesus at his most essential and unrefined.)

Look at your own relationship with the ants living in your yard. They feel the effects of your presence but can’t understand your presence itself… They lack the perspective, due to their limited nature, to understand. It’s not a flaw, it’s simply the way they were created. So it largely is with us and God.

I understand it’s just an analogy, but we are not seeking a loving relationship with the ants. And unlike the ants, we can reason and God can communicate and reason with us.

 

[SpaghettiCowboy]

Your real and immediate love for your family and other loved ones IS an experience of God and his love.

Can it truly be an experience of God if you’re not aware of that experience?

 

[Neithan]

What exactly are you looking for? Life itself is an experience of God. It seems like you might have started on a trajectory of magical thinking at some point in the past that has now led to confusion and disillusionment. Perhaps you can trace that back to wherever this crisis started with the help of a spiritual director.