About your research of Jack's T. Chick tracts...

[sea_oat]

TheRaiders:

Also, it doesn’t make sense to me because John was seeing a vision of heaven, not of earth. The living are not in heaven, and do not get to approach the throne of God with “prayers of the saints”. No, they are mediators. God likes us to ask for things. How many times did Jesus actualy change His divine plans because someone asked him to? The sick asked for healing, others asked him to stay for a meal. They were always asking. Mary asked him to make water into wine, even though He said it was not His time yet. She was his mother though. Our prayers can change God’s will, and the Church teaches that they can do so even in heaven.
Also, in terms of mediators, God chooses to use His creations. We can not begrudge Him that. It seems as if you are empowering Him by saying He doesn’t use mediators, but you are actualy limiting Him. He wants to let us serve. He uses His Saints. Many miracles have been worked with them as mediators. I’m sure you’ve heard of the miracle requirements for Saints. There is little mention of Saints in the Bible, but lets use our heads. At the time the Bible events take place, how many humans were in Heaven? Well, we have Moses, Elijah and…That’s pretty much it. Maybe one or two more. We know this because they were taken up bodily. Of course there was very little praying to the Saints. It wasn’t until the Resurrection that the gates of heaven were opened up. But notice that Moses and Elijah weren’t just sitting around up in heaven. They came down and talked to Jesus at the Transfiguration!
The devotion to the Saints takes a lot of intelectual power to understand. But it takes just a mustard seed of faith. Ask them for help and maybe you will see results. I have. I also know my grandmother helped my cousin when she appeared to him while in a coma, but that’s a different story.
Patrick

You bring up a lot of excellent points! May I ask, though, where did you find Moses and Elijah coming down and talking to Jesus at the Transfiguration?

I’m asking so I can come back, and look over this stuff tomorrow. It’s already 3am here, and I’m pretty exhausted.

[edit] Nevermind, I found it in Mark 9. Yowza…I’m going to have to bookmark this page and save it for tomorrow to imbibe.

 

[Ghosty]

Rick-Xto:

I want to say: I did not use the word symbolic. We do this Supper as something real, the symbolic part was the word’s Jesus used talking about his flesh and blood in his last Supper

That’s not how Paul, or any of the early Christians understood it, however. We have their writings, after all, and Paul’s are Scripture. One doesn’t “discern the body” if there is no body to be discerned. In the Greek term used, you can’t “discern” something that isn’t there. On the contrary, it’s the same usage from Matthew 16:3:

3And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

I’m ignoring your other accusations, about Mary, the Pope, ect., because this matter of the Eucharist is the real biggie. You are incorrect about the other things as well, but God’s Body and Blood are not things to be scoffed at.

GottleofGeer: I agree with you that the “plain sense” of the words depends entirely on the framework the reader is working from. That’s why I tend to prefer the Apostalic framework: they actually knew the guy

Peace and God bless!

 

[maryalene]

Rick-Xto:

wow. I have just read something in the CA homepage about what catholics believe and I can say this is not new for me, I have been studying this at least one year, and** this anwers just are human interpretation of the God’s Word**, and there’s no need for this long explanation for the simple understandable words of our Lord.

(please for some answers for my post: can you stop judging?)

see you! http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

I guess I would be interested to hear why you think your human interpretation (or Jack Chick’s) of the Gospel is more valid than that of the Church, the apostles and the early Church fathers who knew the apostles.

 

[asteroid]

rayne89:

Quite sure. I found a Jack Chick track placed at an ATM machine not to long ago. It contained many false statements about what Catholics actually believe and what the church actually teaches. How can this man’s teachings come from God, if he spreads false information? God using lies to convert people? I think not.

God Bless!

I am thankful! That it was you who found the tract. That the tract wasn’t found by someone who wouldn’t have recognised statements to be false.

 

[manualman]

Rick, I know how you’re feeling.

Among your evangelical friends you feel a powerful presence of the Holy Spirit that you never felt when you were nominally catholic. You feel a closeness to God that you never felt possible and a joy in being saved from your sinfulness that is too much for any words to express! Those emotions predispose you to believe what you hear where you are now over what you heard elsewhere. I get it. I’ve been there.

But believe me, feelings like that aren’t enough to sustain you for a lifetime. The FEELING fades, but the faith doesn’t have to. God wants us to be sanctified throughout our lives and gradually surrender all the sinful habits and tendencies that we still secretly cling to in our hearts. Enthusiasm can’t do that. Discipleship does it.

Please remember this: when the desolate time comes, when you can’t FEEL God close to you anymore, when the 5 dozen verses you’ve memorized start to ring hollow. Don’t lose your faith. Before you chuck it ALL out the window (which is distressingly common later in life among those who convert to evangelical christianty as young adults), consider whether you might never have given the catholic faith a fair, unbiased examination. And do it then.

 

[StubbleSpark]

Rick, because the Church decided which books belong in the Bible and because the Catholic Church is the authentic historical source of all Christianity, when you attack the Church, you attack all Christian faith. For example:

The Pagan source thing. Catholicism is not the only Christian denomination that uses liturgical worship (and this Chick claim attacks liturgical worship). Rick, go to a Lutheran church for once and remember: Luther is the one who split Christendom! Yet his church worships in a way very similar to the Catholic form!

But that is not my point. First you have guys like Chick saying authentic Christianity is nothing more than Paganism in disguise, then generations later you have people like Dan Brown saying all Christianity is a lie and Jesus is not God. Now, we have Wiccan services on military bases because this glazed-over version of Satanism is a “more authentic” faith than Christianity. These Pagans believe Chick’s lies just like you.

Thanks Chick. Thank you for giving the Pagans a foothold in Christian America.

But this dynamic is unavoidable. Make up lies about the Church’s relationship to science and now all faithful Christians look like backward nincompoops. Make up lies about the Church’s involvement in government and later Christmas trees are outlawed in public spaces.

Suddenly, you have the same rabid anti-Catholics backpedaling and speaking in defense of the Church!

The biggest testimony against Chick is that the majority of Protestants despise his teachings and insincere tactics. He only seems to convert people who already hate the Church and hate doing even a little bit of research into what the Church teaches.

I was raised Protestant and one of my relatives had Chick comics around the house. My Baptist mother would not let me read them because they were so lurid and sinful.

Most Protestant book stores refuse to carry his work. Where I live, I can only find them online. Chick is a demonic sword aimed at the heart of Christianity.

Rick, you admitted yourself that Chick got at least one accusation wrong – either it was an innocent mistake or an outright lie. Ask yourself: how honest is this self-proclaimed “expert”?

You also need to remember that most heresies are simplifications of the original truth: that Christ was God but not man or Christ was man but not God. These are simpler to understand than what the Church has taught throughout the ages. They are easier, too.

So too is Chick’s Satanic form of “Christianity.” If the Bible is all that you are supposed to rely on for your faith, why aren’t there any verses that support that idea? Why doesn’t anyone in the OT and NT ever use the Protestant version of “Scripture Alone”? Why did Christ even start the Church?

The word “Bible” is nowhere in the Bible, but “Church” comes from Christ’s lips. The Church predates the Bible by about 400 years. No Church, no Bible. Without Catholicism, there would be no other form of Christianity – that is an undisputed historical fact.

Luther invented the idea of Bible Alone before he changed the Bible (taking out 12 books and adding the word “alone” to Gal 2:16) rejecting the original Bible decided on by believing Christians and instead choosing the Scriptures approved by Jews who rejected Christ’s resurrection. Also, undisputed historical fact.

From the beginning of the Bible to the very end, all the faithful only worship under priests with liturgy and a valid sacrifice – even in Heaven. The only Christian denomination that continues this practice today on earth and in Heaven is the One True Church created by Christ for the Salvation of all mankind.

In contrast, the Protestant version of purely symbolic worship is nowhere to be found in the Bible. How do you explain this using the Bible alone – especially since the word “symbolic” is only used in Zecharia 3:18 (NIV) and in that verse the real priests of Joshua’s time are said to be symbolic of the priesthood to come?? (Sorry, the word does not come up even once in the KJV version).

Worship is supposed to be real, not two songs and a lecture on the pastor’s pet topic of the day. But hey, Chick says it is not what God and the Bible says about worship that is important, but what you want.

Enjoy your grape juice and cracker crumb symbolism. It is not Biblical but at least you can rest peacefully in the hands of your anti-Christian deceiver, Jack Chick.

 

[Milliardo]

Rick-Xto:

If you read David’s life and Psalms you will understand the “Jesus doesn’t like religion” and of course the Gospel sets it clear.

Jesus doesn’t like religion? Jesus went to the Temple to teach and worship, went to the synagogue as any good Jew should, celebrated Passover, observed the Sabbath…I think you get the point. Jesus’ point against the Pharisees was actually that they made religion, as it is, more of a burden. He never implied that He doesn’t like religion, or else He wouldn’t even bother observing the Jewish customs.

 

[NonDenom]

Nondenom, Protestants are Christians, rest your mind. The one’s that willfully ignore the truth are not. They refuse to have that deep faith in Jesus that He gave us one true Church. Or they refuse to give up there considerable power in their non-denomination, or Protestant church.
They could be the spawn of Satan, who knows. I would never classify a whole group of people obviously trying in there own way to be Christians as non-Christians.
Jack Chick does this, and he does it without any decency and in a childish manner.
To ask whether Catholics are Christians, would be a dumb question though because they are practicing a faith of the first Christians. To ask whether a new sect started by someone claiming to be saved is Christian is a valid question. You must look at their core beliefs, and also at how that founder acts.
That is not saying Protestants aren’t Christians, but some sects may not be, though they carry the name.

Patrick

Hi
My mind was never restless about being a Christian. There are people in every church that willfully ignore the truth, even in your church. The church where I attend claims much less power than your church as we do not make all the claims of infallability that your leaders do, your leaders think that they can’t be wrong which in my opinion is very arrogant and prideful. The Catholic church has made changes through out history so to make a statement that it practices the faith of the first Christrians is wrong.
In Him and Only Him

 

[Mickey]

NonDenom:

your leaders think that they can’t be wrong which in my opinion is very arrogant and prideful.

You continue to misunderstand the concept of infallibility.

 

[jim1130]

NonDenom:

The church where I attend claims much less power than your church as we do not make all the claims of infallability that your leaders do, your leaders think that they can’t be wrong which in my opinion is very arrogant and prideful.

Please do NOT confuse infallibility with impeccability.

And what Church do you attend? A non-denomiantional church where the pastor has set himself/herself up as the arbiter of scripture, i.e. his/her own pope/magesterium?

The Catholic church has made changes through out history so to make a statement that it practices the faith of the first Christrians is wrong.

What are these changes? Just list the most significant ones.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

I’m sorry in advance. I’ve been waiting to use this, and this seems to be the appropriate thread. Please forgive my derailment of this heated thread.
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*http://www.weirdcrap.com/chick/666.jpg

 

[starrs0]

Jack Chick is a horrible horrible man he not a Christian in any way, shape or form he is nothing but a bigot. He’s right up there with the KKK and the Nazis just pure evil no truth to him whatsoever he is a liar and a deceiver.

 

[Jabronie]

sea oat:

Wow…well, I just read “Are Roman Catholics Christians?” for the first time on the chick website, and I have to admit some of the claims in there are pretty unsettling. I never read a full anti-catholic chick tract. I’ve just seen sparse panels, and whole comics dealing with other subjects.

I’m going to have to further look into some of this stuff. With all due respect to the catholic.com page, it doesn’t really answer any of Chick’s charges against the Catholic Church. It mostly just attacks his credibility.

I’m worried.

Oh no! You didn’t read the one where he reveals that the Eastern Orthodox are vampires did you!? :bigyikes:

Please please please don’t let that @#%$!% Chick influence you at all. If you read his stuff, laugh at it and pray for his soul. And just use a little bit of logic. Do you really believe that the Vatican planned WWII? Do you really believe that the Catholic Church assasinated Kennedy?

I will pray for you and anyone who falls for Chick’s lies.

 

[Jabronie]

jim1130:

I found a pile of Chick Tracks stacked on a public telephone along I-71 south of Cleveland and promptly gathered them all and tossed them in the trash, where they rightly belonged. I did not even bother reading the titles.

No no no… Don’t place them in the trash. Use them for toilet paper.

 

[jim1130]

Jabronie:

No no no… Don’t place them in the trash. Use them for toilet paper.

I did not want to worry about even the ink from the “Tracks” staining my body. Come to think of it, I shold have worn gloves when I touched the “Tracks.” Maybe Ihad better go in for a booster shot.

 

[Jabronie]

Rick-Xto:

Well I’m chrsitian because I’m triying to follow the way of Jesuschrist, I go to the church of course! but not a catholic one, I go to one in where you call yourself christian because you have received Jesuschrist in your life and born again (writen in John 3:1-16)

What’s with the weird way you write our Lord’s name?

 

[Jabronie]

Ghosty:

I wasn’t going to respond to this thread, but man this one is too funny. Let me ask you something, Rick: do you read Greek? If so I’d like you to find a concordance Bible and look up Luke 22:17-19.

Actually, I’ll do you one better. Here’s an online Concordance Bible with those passages already pulled up. Pay special attention to the word “gave thanks”, and to the context of the passage.



Peace and God bless!

Awesome!

 

[Mickey]

Rick-Xto:

Hi, I can say for sure, that you didn’t read what I posted. I never said that Jack’s T Chick was the responsible one of my Salvation , I said that God uses him as many others to spread the message.

No, my friend. God does not use people to spread lies, untruths, and division. I have a gut feeling that Mr Chick is being used by someone other than God. :bigyikes:

 

[NonDenom]

And what Church do you attend? A non-denomiantional church where the pastor has set himself/herself up as the arbiter of scripture, i.e. his/her own pope/magesterium?

Hi
We hired or set if you prefur, our Minister while being guided by the Holy Spirit. We have the authority to do this because we are members of the one true church that Jesus himself founded while on this earth, and that is HIS church. We are called by HIS name and live by the guidelines that he set forth through HIS Holy Scriptures. We give ALL Praise, Honor and Glory to Jesus. We are Catholic, for we are part of HIS Universal church:

u·ni·ver·sal
1 Of, relating to, extending to, or affecting the entire world or all within the world; worldwide: “This discovery of literature has as yet only partially penetrated the universal consciousness”.
2 Including, relating to, or affecting all members of the class or group under consideration: the universal skepticism of philosophers.
3 Applicable or common to all purposes, conditions, or situations: a universal remedy.
4 Of or relating to the universe or cosmos; cosmic.
5 Knowledgeable about or constituting all or many subjects; comprehensively broad.
6 Adapted or adjustable to many sizes or mechanical uses.
7 Logic. Encompassing all of the members of a class or group. Used of a proposition.

There is one thing that NOBODY was given the authority to do and that is tell anybody weather or not they belong to Jesus.

What are these changes? Just list the most significant ones.

I will answer this question in a later post as I need to check on the dates that these changes or additions we made to your dogma.

In Him and Only Him.

 

[Seeker_Of_Truth]

Jabronie:

What’s with the weird way you write our Lord’s name?

In spanish we say Jesucristo. I think Rick might have Spanish as his first language and then translated Jesucristo to Jesuchirst. Quite understandable. I’ve done things like that numerous times before.