Absolute Truth

[cheddarsox]

What you describe can only feel impersonal, albeit stirring, but not an intimate knowing personal relationship. Sort of like a benevolent, but distant, Benefactor who takes care of all your sustenance needs and lavishes good things that conjure a sense of caring, closeness, revelation, …but all the time never personally knowing this person, but presumming to know about the person who absorbs and subsumes your personal identity.

.

I agree, the relationship is not an intimate knowing of a personal kind, but your next sentence contains something I would like to clear up…the Divine is not considered to be a distant Benefactor…at all.

The Divine is not distant. It is present in all things, all happenings, all the time. Because humans are brought forth by the Divine in union with all that is…we are capable of interacting and sensing the Divine in all things.

Pantheism is not like Deism, no removed creator. The Divine IS the All. While the Divine is not personal, that does not hinder our relationship to it. It is known in it’s many forms, and as a whole. It is known through our personal relationships with others as well, yet is not limited to being known through them.

Nor is the Divine understood as benevolent. Yes, we are sustained by the Divine, but we are also taken out by the Divine. Illness, pain, fear, death, are also part of the Divine. To see the Divine only as sustainer, comforter etc would be false. The Divine is What Is, not just the things we like or feel comforted by. Nor is there a particular sense of caring, or the lavishing of good things. We take the “good” with the “bad”, no picking and choosing in pantheism. No dualism.

The caring and personal relationships are something that we get in relationship to other people. We don’t pretend that the sun is shining for our benefit, because it loves us. Though, it does Love us, because it participates in Divine Love, which is the cooperation of everything to create What Is.

I don’t want people here to get the wrong idea that pantheism is about assigning the “nice” stuff to an unamed Divine and ignoring the hard stuff, because that is exactly the opposite of what it is about.

And again, you continue to use the term “person”. We do not pretend to, expect to, or presume to know the Divine personally. It is not that kind of a relationship. Pantheism rejects the concept of the Divine as a personal deity. That would be projecting our image onto a Divine, which by observation is not a person. Much of what creates a human personality is our human needs and limitations. We depend upon one another. The Divine is beyond human need and limitation. It has no need for a human type personality. We strive to know it for what it is, rather than try to understand it as we understand ourselves.

The Divine is everything, so it had no need for desire, The Divine is that which governs the universe, so it has no need for anger, nothing can act outside of its laws.

Like most faiths, some of it doesn’t make sense until one begins to live it, and experience it.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

I can encounter and communicate with Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit everyday. Though I do not see or touch them physically, my relationship interaction with the three Persons of the trinity is to me more real and substantial than any other personal relationship that I have. However, I am not having a personal relationship with the transcendent whole of God or His creation, as I am but a finite person and can only extend as far as my voice can carry, my arms can extend. Otherwise, it is but a spectator gaze and sentimental realization of the nature of God, but not a personal encounter, though I do recognize the Personhood behind all His creation.

.

My experience as a Christian was that I related personally to God, and God never responded…personally. I was aware of “God”, the existence of “God”, through Creation, which never interacted in a personal way. This is what led me into pantheism. After many years of feeling hurt, forgotten, etc by a personal “God” who seemed uninterested in having a personal relationship back…it dawned on me. The Divine is not a person. I was having a little snit because the Divine would not make itself small, convenient, and cozy on my behalf. I had been wanting it to be “all about me” and my personal situations. Then I got a wake up call and a lesson in humility. In my most downtrodden moment, in the most desolate circumstances I have been in in my life…I finally saw it…the Divine, completely there, completely awesome, and completely not limited. The most comforting realization I even had was that it is not about me, and that the Divine is truly in control of ALL. In the most desperate of circumstances, I worshipped What Is.

My experience has been very different from yours. God never related to me in a personal way. My life was changed when I accepted the manner in which the Divine does relate to me, and stopped wishing for the experiences that others have with their God.

I am glad for, and a little envious of those who have that type of personal relationship with God. I wanted that God to be real to me. But now, knowing what I know, I can’t imagine existing any other way. I was too prideful, greedy and needy.

cheddar

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

cheddar

The most comforting realization I even had was that it is not about me, and that the Divine is truly in control of ALL. In the most desperate of circumstances, I worshipped What Is.

This probably continues to be for some of us the point of your religion that we cannot fathom. If you only worship What Is, how do we distinguish you from any other atheist who also loves and worships life as he knows it because he cannot imagine any divinity beyond What Is. If your What Is does not transcend what is, why call it Divine?

 

[setter]

I agree, the relationship is not an intimate knowing of a personal kind, but your next sentence contains something I would like to clear up…the Divine is not considered to be a distant Benefactor…at all.

The Divine is not distant. It is present in all things, all happenings, all the time. Because humans are brought forth by the Divine in union with all that is…we are capable of interacting and sensing the Divine in all things.

The present but not personal experience of the Divine, versus personal encounter with the Divine Persons.

Pantheism is not like Deism, no removed creator. The Divine IS the All. While the Divine is not personal, that does not hinder our relationship to it. It is known in it’s many forms, and as a whole. It is known through our personal relationships with others as well, yet is not limited to being known through them.

Nor is the Divine understood as benevolent. Yes, we are sustained by the Divine, but we are also taken out by the Divine. Illness, pain, fear, death, are also part of the Divine. To see the Divine only as sustainer, comforter etc would be false. The Divine is What Is, not just the things we like or feel comforted by. Nor is there a particular sense of caring, or the lavishing of good things. We take the “good” with the “bad”, no picking and choosing in pantheism. No dualism.

Again, that sense of experience of an impersonal “Blob” who does not have a personal interest in how my day is going, and I am rather left tomy own devises, thank you not! I need a present Savior and God’s personal, specific, directed interention in my days, as a loving parent would do for his stumbling and defiant child.

The caring and personal relationships are something that we get in relationship to other people. We don’t pretend that the sun is shining for our benefit, because it loves us. Though, it does Love us, because it participates in Divine Love, which is the cooperation of everything to create What Is.

I don’t want people here to get the wrong idea that pantheism is about assigning the “nice” stuff to an unamed Divine and ignoring the hard stuff, because that is exactly the opposite of what it is about.

What is the purpose and meaning of suffering if only because it is? This seems as a cruel joke of a detached Divine entity.

And again, you continue to use the term “person”. We do not pretend to, expect to, or presume to know the Divine personally. It is not that kind of a relationship. Pantheism rejects the concept of the Divine as a personal deity. That would be projecting our image onto a Divine, which by observation is not a person.

Why is this? Is it because ot is easier to love a non-personalistic God who makes no personal demands upon you?

Much of what creates a human personality is our human needs and limitations. We depend upon one another. The Divine is beyond human need and limitation. It has no need for a human type personality. We strive to know it for what it is, rather than try to understand it as we understand ourselves.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” John 3: 16

The Divine is everything, so it had no need for desire, The Divine is that which governs the universe, so it has no need for anger, nothing can act outside of its laws.

Like most faiths, some of it doesn’t make sense until one begins to live it, and experience it.

cheddar

“Jesus wept.” John 11: 35

“And he took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly distressed and troubled.” Mark 14: 33

“And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored.” Mark 3: 5

 

[JonathanKinsman]

I’d just like to point out the difference between ***Truth ***and Understanding. Think of the three blind men and the elephant!

noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html

It is poem entitled, “The Blind Men and the Elephant: A Hindoo Fable” by John Godfrey Saxe.

 

[cheddarsox]

The present but not personal experience of the Divine, versus personal encounter with the Divine Persons.

Again, that sense of experience of an impersonal “Blob” who does not have a personal interest in how my day is going, and I am rather left tomy own devises, thank you not! I need a present Savior and God’s personal, specific, directed interention in my days, as a loving parent would do for his stumbling and defiant child.

**Odd to refer to the Divine as a “blob”…not sure how the totality of all that is, ever was or will be comes across as a “blob” to you. It doesn’t have a “friendly” interest in how my day is going…it IS how my day is going.

I haven’t been trying to “convert” you or get you to worship my understanding of the Divine. I understand that you need a personal God and Savior, and I am happy that you have what you need.**

What is the purpose and meaning of suffering if only because it is? This seems as a cruel joke of a detached Divine entity.

I have no idea what the purpose or meaning of suffering is, beyond the fact that pain serves an important biological function…letting us know when the body is in danger. Again, the Divine is NOT detached, it is present in all things, pain exists and the Divine experiences it along with each of its creatures. There is nothing that occurs that is outside of or seperate from the Divine.

Why is this? Is it because ot is easier to love a non-personalistic God who makes no personal demands upon you?

**No, I follow my faith because it is true. I didn’t create my concept of the Divine, or my religion. If I were to create an easy feel good faith, to suit some selfish purpose, I could think of concepts more attractive and cozy than pantheism, but a false faith in a false reality would serve no purpose.

The Divine makes no personal demands on me, because it requires nothing from me. My faith makes demands on me, causes me to act or refrain from acting in certain ways because of what I beleive to be true. My religion makes requirements for me. But no, the Divine needs nothing from me. Religion serves human purpose, not Divine need.
**
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” John 3: 16

“Jesus wept.” John 11: 35

“And he took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly distressed and troubled.” Mark 14: 33

“And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored.” Mark 3: 5

 

[setter]

My experience as a Christian was that I related personally to God, and God never responded…personally. I was aware of “God”, the existence of “God”, through Creation, which never interacted in a personal way. This is what led me into pantheism. After many years of feeling hurt, forgotten, etc by a personal “God” who seemed uninterested in having a personal relationship back…it dawned on me. The Divine is not a person. I was having a little snit because the Divine would not make itself small, convenient, and cozy on my behalf. I had been wanting it to be “all about me” and my personal situations. Then I got a wake up call and a lesson in humility. In my most downtrodden moment, in the most desolate circumstances I have been in in my life…I finally saw it…the Divine, completely there, completely awesome, and completely not limited. The most comforting realization I even had was that it is not about me, and that the Divine is truly in control of ALL. In the most desperate of circumstances, I worshipped What Is.

Here is a reasonable thought I have in reading your testimony: This could easily (and properly) be interpreted as displacing and fixating one’s God’s given desire for personal encounter and intimacy with God onto the transcendent experience of God. A sort of reactionary way to displace and deny the frustration and hurt of not having your legitimate God given desire for intimacy with God satisfied in the timing and manner you had expected/hoped for. Please feel free to reject my conjecture as presumptuous.

My experience has been very different from yours. God never related to me in a personal way. My life was changed when I accepted the manner in which the Divine does relate to me, and stopped wishing for the experiences that others have with their God.

Does it at all make your wonder that mine and other’s experience has been similiar upto a point, but mine and other’s search and desire did not stop until we personally encountered and met the Other in the person of Jesus Christ? I had absolutely no imagining that that this was how my unmet desire was going to be satisfied …and even typing it here leaves me totally blown away in a humble realization of the literal before and after reality of my life of having fallen into the literal hand of the One who was seeking me out personally.

I am glad for, and a little envious of those who have that type of personal relationship with God. I wanted that God to be real to me. But now, knowing what I know, I can’t imagine existing any other way. I was too prideful, greedy and needy.
cheddar

This is a brutally honest and insightful of you (and fits quite well with the simple interpretation/take of how our humanness reacts to and copes with perceived rejection).

I can be bold and guarantee one thing for you in this remainder of your life: If you sincerely reopen that desire for intimacy and personal encounter with God, and earnestly ask God to fulfill that need, He will not fail to do so. Period. He may first have to work at removing the obstacles (pride being primary for us all; healing and letting go of past hurts of unmet needs, and becoming vulnerable again to relationship encounter with God) to you receiving Him through faith in such an intimate manner as is His desire.

I am enjoying this exchange as it reaffirms the gift of faith that I have been undeservedly have been blessed to have received. It and also helps me to more appreciate and understand the real faith journey and unfortunate stuck points/turning away the quest for the fullness of God that settles for a system of belief that uses aspects of the [transcendent] reality experience of God, i.e., He is everywhere and in everything.

 

[setter]

Odd to refer to the Divine as a “blob”…not sure how the totality of all that is, ever was or will be comes across as a “blob” to you. It doesn’t have a “friendly” interest in how my day is going…it IS how my day is going.

I haven’t been trying to “convert” you or get you to worship my understanding of the Divine. I understand that you need a personal God and Savior, and I am happy that you have what you need.

My experience with the transcendent reality of God’s omnipresence and all knowing would be incomplete and fail to satisfy, if I stopped there. Only God can fill that God given hole for intimacy (the St. Augustine quote I believe) which we human’s attempt to fill with all sorts of things (false religions and beliefs systems, addictions, …) and distractions (human intimacy, busyness, …). The reason that the Eucharist is the highest gift given to the Church for the faithful is that it satisfies most directly this need for personal intimacy and encounter with the person of God.

I am sorry that you have chosen to neglect, bury, deny that God-given need and desire for personal intimacy and encounter with God your Creator and heavenly Father.

I have no idea what the purpose or meaning of suffering is, beyond the fact that pain serves an important biological function…letting us know when the body is in danger. Again, the Divine is NOT detached, it is present in all things, pain exists and the Divine experiences it along with each of its creatures. There is nothing that occurs that is outside of or seperate from the Divine.

If anything, this would be my reason for shunning and running away from the construct of pantheism. I think that you need to ask yourself this: Who in their right mind would ever tolerate such treatment on human level? …so why would any well-adjusted, self-respecting person accept such unmoved, indifferent treatment from the “Divine”? This “Divine” simply being present in your pain (note: no sense of empathy communicated for your suffering) frankly sounds callous, cruel, and abusive.

Quite seriously, if anyone I knew was describing such a relationship with anyone to me, I would without hestiation advise then to get out immediately. You seem to be missing the fact that we humans are made for relationship, and any relationship that has the characteristics/attributes of being aloof, estranged, callous, indifferent, uncaring, …to your personal pain, and does not even have the capacity to acknowledge your suffering (mental, physical, emotional, …) …as your describe your “Divine”, is simply suspect at best, and actually abundantly neglectful and abusive of your human dignity.

I find it interesting how you make an exception for the “Divine”] GOD who made you to not be accountable to you.

No, I follow my faith because it is true.

But incomplete as it fails to satisfy the needs that you once allowed yourself to have.

I didn’t create my concept of the Divine, or my religion. If I were to create an easy feel good faith, to suit some selfish purpose, I could think of concepts more attractive and cozy than pantheism, but a false faith in a false reality would serve no purpose.

There is nothing feel good, selfish, cozy, attractive, or unreal about the cross of Christ and the demands of discipleship to have a real and substantial relationship with the person of Jesus Christ.

The Divine makes no personal demands on me, because it requires nothing from me.

How convenient, cozy, attractive, selfish, …

My faith makes demands on me, causes me to act or refrain from acting in certain ways because of what I beleive to be true. My religion makes requirements for me. But no, the Divine needs nothing from me. Religion serves human purpose, not Divine need.

A highly self-referencing/subjective (and by logic self-serving) and agnostic version of faith.

Now if you read through each of the four Gospels, you will see the accountability, demands and mutal responsibility that is the real faith relationship God offers and expects of us as our loving heavenly Father. I suggest that you ponder this: Why would you allow yourself to settle for anything less or sell yourself short? Pride only believes that God’s hand is too short to reach out and touch us where are God-given need is.

 

[cheddarsox]

Here is a reasonable thought I have in reading your testimony: This could easily (and properly) be interpreted as displacing and fixating one’s God’s given desire for personal encounter and intimacy with God onto the transcendent experience of God. A sort of reactionary way to displace and deny the frustration and hurt of not having your legitimate God given desire for intimacy with God satisfied in the timing and manner you had expected/hoped for. Please feel free to reject my conjecture as presumptuous.

---

That makes sense.***

…
I can be bold and guarantee one thing for you in this remainder of your life: If you sincerely reopen that desire for intimacy and personal encounter with God, and earnestly ask God to fulfill that need, He will not fail to do so. Period. He may first have to work at removing the obstacles (pride being primary for us all; healing and letting go of past hurts of unmet needs, and becoming vulnerable again to relationship encounter with God) to you receiving Him through faith in such an intimate manner as is His desire.

That is quite a bold guarantee. Here is something that might encourage you, the “obstacles” that you speak of above, are definitely in the process of being removed from my life. So who knows,maybe God is using pantheism to prepare me for something else. It’s possible. I definitely have felt the Divine in all the other steps of my journey, and will follow the course that it makes for me.I am attached to the Divine, and the truth, not a certain “label” on my faith.

I am enjoying this exchange as it reaffirms the gift of faith that I have been undeservedly have been blessed to have received. It and also helps me to more appreciate and understand the real faith journey and unfortunate stuck points/turning away the quest for the fullness of God that settles for a system of belief that uses aspects of the [transcendent] reality experience of God, i.e., He is everywhere and in everything.

I’m glad you feel you are gaining something from our discussions. That is the beauty and purpose of these types of forums.

*I feel rather than turning away from the fullness of God, I am much more aware and open to it. I had a very childish faith before, needing God to fit my image of Him, unable and unwilling to recognize the Divine glory in all things. Now I have a much more childlike, but not childish faith. I have my ultimate trust in the Divine. I don’t look for it to serve me or coddle me, but I know, that no matter what happens, the Divine is in it.
*

 

[cheddarsox]

My experience with the transcendent reality of God’s omnipresence and all knowing would be incomplete and fail to satisfy, if I stopped there. Only God can fill that God given hole for intimacy (the St. Augustine quote I believe) which we human’s attempt to fill with all sorts of things (false religions and beliefs systems, addictions, …) and distractions (human intimacy, busyness, …). The reason that the Eucharist is the highest gift given to the Church for the faithful is that it satisfies most directly this need for personal intimacy and encounter with the person of God.

My experience of the Divine was that…I was upset that my “God shaped hole” hadn’t been filled, then the Divine showed me that the problem was, my “God shaped hole” was way too small and confining for the true glory of the Divine, and then the Divine basically blew the lock up.

I am sorry that you have chosen to neglect, bury, deny that God-given need and desire for personal intimacy and encounter with God your Creator and heavenly Father.

Sorta makes me sound like I’m doing everything I can to keep a personal God out of my life. Not sure why you assume that. I attend Christian and sometimes Catholic church with some regualrity, I listen to Christian and Catholic radio broadcasts, support my local Christian radio station monetarily, and spend a huge chunk of my time on religious discussion boards (albeit of a wide variety of faiths).I read Christian apologetics and theologians, not really the profile of one who is covering their ears, singing "la, la, la, la God…I can’t hear you…"

If anything, this would be my reason for shunning and running away from the construct of pantheism. I think that you need to ask yourself this: Who in their right mind would ever tolerate such treatment on human level? …so why would any well-adjusted, self-respecting person accept such unmoved, indifferent treatment from the “Divine”? This “Divine” simply being present in your pain (note: no sense of empathy communicated for your suffering) frankly sounds callous, cruel, and abusive.

***Excellant question! And my point exactly…Who would? Why did this personal God never come to me and be with me in the midst of intense pain and suffering? Why, for years? I used to wonder what kind of sicko was in charge of things.
Then…the Divine showed me it was there, as it always had been and always would be, but it was not the God I had been taught to expect. This is what I am trying to explain…The Divine has related much more of the qualities I was told to expect from the Christian God, than the Christian God ever did when I worshipped Him. So I began to suspect that maybe the Christian God was a personification of the larger truth of the Divine, a “user friendly” metaphor. Because this Divine I experienced was much more well…Divine than I had even suspected God would ever be.

---

Quite seriously, if anyone I knew was describing such a relationship with anyone to me, I would without hestiation advise then to get out immediately.

***Well, that was my experience in Christianity. God didn’t ever step in, in any personal way, or show that He cared what was happening in my life. But I didn’t get out, I hung in there, assuming it was my fault, somehow, that I wasn’t good enough for God to bother with. I didn’t leave until I became aware of the Divine, and then…there was no contest. As you suggest…without hesitation…I got out of a religion of worshipping something that didn’t care, to worshipping something that had created me, sustained me, didn’t hide itself from me when I sinned, and was clearly “in charge” of it all.

---

You seem to be missing the fact that we humans are made for relationship, and any relationship that has the characteristics/attributes of being aloof, estranged, callous, indifferent, uncaring, …to your personal pain, and does not even have the capacity to acknowledge your suffering (mental, physical, emotional, …) …as your describe your “Divine”, is simply suspect at best, and actually abundantly neglectful and abusive of your human dignity.

***Apparently you have been a very blessed Christian. But the list of words you use to describe the Divine, are exactly what I experienced from the Christian God.

And the Divine has never been neglectful or abusive of my human dignity. My experience has been the exact opposite of what you describe. The Divine does not come to me and say…“there, there, let me kiss it and make it better”, but when I begin to question…I feel moved inside to “Look. Look at the Whole of What Is.” and my perspective shifts, and I am reminded of what is true. The gift is not that the Divine “stoops” to comfort me on a human level, but that I am lifted up to be aware of the Divine level. The pain does not go, but it makes sense. It fits into the Whole, it is my part to play. I am so awed at being part of this amazing thing.

---

.

 

[cheddarsox]

Pride only believes that God’s hand is too short to reach out and touch us where are God-given need is.

I was going to respond to some other parts of your post. But…well, you’ve said some hurtful things about the Divine, and my faith. You make declarations about it that you have no way of knowing if they are true. No matter what I tell you, you will say what you want to, not paying attention to what I say about my own experience in my faith.

I believed for many years that God was able to reach out and touch me, but He didn’t. I don’t know why He chose not to. Maybe you do, you know Him personally.

But the Divine doesn’t need arms to reach out, it IS. Everywhere I am, it IS. Every need I perceive, it IS. It doesn’t hide from me. It IS.

You can call it cold, cruel or any other string of words you want, but that wont change the truth.

I try to speak only of my own faith and not make assumptions or denigrate the faith or deity of others, because…I realize I don’t know their experience, and matters of faith are so very personal.

cheddar

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

cheddar

But the Divine doesn’t need arms to reach out, it IS. Everywhere I am, it IS. Every need I perceive, it IS. It doesn’t hide from me. It IS.

This seems to be the bottom line for you. Sorry, I just don’t get it. I don’t get how you failed to find comfort in a personal God who cares for you and wants to get into a loving relationship, but do get comfort from everything that Is. You worship a centipede Divinity with trillions of feet.

Is it possible you really are an atheist and just can’t stand to admit it to yourself, so you cover up your philosophy with theological terms?

I know many atheists who love nature (everything that is) as the only reality. This is very natural, since God made a universe and saw that it was good … and so should we all.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Anyway, this thread has certainly derailed from its original topic.

 

[cheddarsox]

cheddar

But the Divine doesn’t need arms to reach out, it IS. Everywhere I am, it IS. Every need I perceive, it IS. It doesn’t hide from me. It IS.

This seems to be the bottom line for you. Sorry, I just don’t get it. I don’t get how you failed to find comfort in a personal God who cares for you and wants to get into a loving relationship, but do get comfort from everything that Is. You worship a centipede Divinity with trillions of feet.

Is it possible you really are an atheist and just can’t stand to admit it to yourself, so you cover up your philosophy with theological terms?

I know many atheists who love nature (everything that is) as the only reality. This is very natural, since God made a universe and saw that it was good … and so should we all.

Do you actually READ my posts?

I’ve been pretty clear about my experience as both a Christian and a pantheist.

If you draw the conclusion I’m a closet atheist from the things I’ve said. I don’t see any point in continuing to discuss this with you, you seem programmed to come to the conclusion you began with.

cheddar

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Gilbert Keith, I wouldn’t come down too hard on cheddarsox. His view is very similar to Spinoza to be fair. Spinoza was not an atheist, although he was accused of being one of the most atheistic monotheists.

Myself, I think that Spinoza didn’t necessarilly teach anything very, very wrong. He only seemed to be pointing toward the “now” and said that we had what man Christians would have “after”.
Ephesians 4:4-7:

There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

We Christians do not believe that we are a natural extension of the divine like Spinoza alluded to. But, in the end, when the final judgement comes, we will partake in the divine in a way that is similar to Spinoza’s conception of God in our life.
1 Corinthians 15:28:

When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

cheddarsox

We certainly are not on the same wave length at all.

On the other hand, having given you the last word, can you bring yourself to return to the topic of this thread instead of making it all about your pantheism instead of Absolute Truth?

 

[cheddarsox]

cheddarsox

We certainly are not on the same wave length at all.

On the other hand, having given you the last word, can you bring yourself to return to the topic of this thread instead of making it all about your pantheism instead of Absolute Truth?

You’re right, setter and I should have taken our discussion to PM, as it was off topic. My apologies.

I don’t think either of us intended for the other discussion to cease.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

Gilbert Keith, I wouldn’t come down too hard on cheddarsox. His view is very similar to Spinoza to be fair. Spinoza was not an atheist, although he was accused of being one of the most atheistic monotheists.

Myself, I think that Spinoza didn’t necessarilly teach anything very, very wrong. He only seemed to be pointing toward the “now” and said that we had what man Christians would have “after”.

We Christians do not believe that we are a natural extension of the divine like Spinoza alluded to. But, in the end, when the final judgement comes, we will partake in the divine in a way that is similar to Spinoza’s conception of God in our life.

Thanks for this. I appreciate that someone bothers to read my posts and understand where I am coming from and not just write me off as deluded because I don’t share the same faith as they do.

cheddar

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I agree with some of the others. Valke2 this is a rejection of your original assumptions

Assumption one Chance (Atheism) we reject this as the position held by the uninformed
Assumption two - We must have a combination of ultimate truth, purpose, and a creator (which you claim is self created)

I propose to you we have a creator which may or may operate with some “ultimate truth” That truth if it exists is outside human comprehension. This is the repeated argument of the novice scientist- If I can not prove it, it does not exist-. Man knows what God gifts him with. The presumption of man’s knowledge being complete is just that a presumption. There is a religion which proposes man can become a God, but that is not Catholism. Concerning the purpose of man we really do not know the purpose for which God created man. We are taught God created man and the “ultimate truths” as we are taught them is the teachings of god on human interaction. Hope that helps.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Texas Roofer

This is the repeated argument of the novice scientist- If I can not prove it, it does not exist-

Nor is it a very good argument. Democritus imagined the existence of atoms, though he could not prove their existence. He was right, even though his contemporaries laughed at him. Atoms (things that cannot be seen) do exist. Likewise, the scientist who is an atheist should learn a lesson from Democritus. God might well exist even though we can’t prove his existence in terms required by science.

This, for example, would have been the view of Isaac Newton, who was a religious man as well as a great scientist. He could not see order in the universe without some absolute truth as a basis for that order … the truth that God imposed on the universe and made comprehensible to Man … as opposed to mere subjective impressions that vary from one man to another.