Abstinence in marriage

[whm]

After our second child we effectively switched to complete abstinence. We didn’t discuss it, it just happened. In fact I didn’t even know that was what we were doing (for 8 years!). I must say it didn’t turn out very well and we went through some tough tough times. The natural reaction for a man is to shut down to avoid temptation and rejection, however I eventually found that you really need to keep love alive in this situation. Things are much better now. On the upside I love and am more attracted to my wife than ever before, which in a way is hard, but with better communication it isn’t as big a blow to self esteem (for either of us).

If you need to go this route, you need to always communicate about it. It can really mess with your head. Even though the communication (on this subject) is really awkward for us, I make a point to discuss it every few weeks to keep everything grounded.

Let me add that neither me nor my wife have ever remotely considered leaving the Church or using contraception.

 

[Lee_M]

Just to back you up-
I’m totally in agreement with you on this one.

What’s on the menu today at the cafeteria?

 

[Rascalking]

What’s on the menu today at the cafeteria?

Ha ha! Your right! I can’t wrap my brains around the NFP theme. I admit this, and I plead guilty to being a dreaded Cafeteria Catholic…on that issue…

From what I’ve experienced, Cafeteria Catholics are hated more than abortionists.

 

[Tosk]

Does your wife have PCOS or some other underlying condition that would make NFP troublesome? The first thing I would do is get to the bottom of why NFP isn’t working and then go from there. There will of course be a long period of abstinence involved while all this is going on. Sometimes you will have one or two safe days in a month, but for all intents and purposes that is complete abstinence as far as I am concerned. Try to realize it will not last forever and try to keep everything in perspective - you still have your life, limbs and health.

Something helpful I found was trying to switch your interests to something together but non-sexual with your wife so you still spend time together. Maybe learn ball room dancing, brazilian jiu jitsu, scuba diving, or enroll at the Aliance Française together. You can also devout more time to charity work in your area and maybe put some some of that nervous energy that comes from abstinence to good use.

 

[maryjk]

Ha ha! Your right! I can’t wrap my brains around the NFP theme. I admit this, and I plead guilty to being a dreaded Cafeteria Catholic…on that issue…

From what I’ve experienced, Cafeteria Catholics are hated more than abortionists.

Its not the Cafeteria Catholic that we hate, its that sin of trying to convince others to join you in your sin. You know the old “love the sinner, hate the sin.”

About abstinence, what would you do if your spouse became so sick they couldn’t have marital relations for 6 months? Or forever? If you have children, what did you do after the birth of your child? For us, it was 7 weeks, and I was on bed rest for 3 before the birth. That makes 10 weeks. What do you think the spouses of those overseas do? I have a friend that will be gone for 14 months, what will his wife do?

Now I wouldn’t want to think about going forever, I can look back during my married life and see that there were many times of abstinence. After the birth of our child, after my husband’s heart attack, after my leg surgery were each times of at least 8 weeks of abstinence. Was it fun, no. But if I had to do it again, I could.

 

[jwashu]

I don’t think this is a “why someone needs to leave the faith” thread, I believe people are just pointing out the extreme difficulty in certian situations. It’s true, having 10 kids was a good thing when you needed them to farm your land but that’s not the case today.

Add to the fact that the theology behind the no birth control is sketchy at best, IMO, and that NFP for all practical purposes is used in the same manner as ABC and you have the contention over the issue.

I’m not saying everyone uses NFP like ABC but many do, hence the joke about it being Catholic birth control. One of the earlier posts suggests, just try 2 months abstinence, then 4… my thought was months? Most people I know talk about days and that being a struggle!

To me the Bible is specific about a man and woman, husband and wife, coming together in their marriage. We need to also add some historical context into what Paul is saying as well though when we look at other areas. Paul, many of the Apostles and other early Church members were ascetics. They believed that Christ’s return to this Earth would be soon. The martyrdom and the suffering which the early Christians endured under Nero were surely hell on earth in many respects. With Christ’s return eminent, why worry about children? There are numerous ancient texts which were not included in the canon displaying this, in fact the Gospel of Peter, which we take our story of his crucifixion from isn’t included but the story remained. Why that one part and not the rest which talked a great deal more about ascetics? I’ll let you guys think about that but if the majority of the Church had favored asceticism, we probably wouldn’t have a Church because it would have died out.

Thus my point is that the Council that decided upon the books was lead by the Spirit to not include some of those books that focused so much on being celibate yet the ascetic ideas have definitely continued to permeate the theology of the Church for years. No I’m not saying we should abandon them, I believe they are very valuable but I also believe we need to be aware of the historical context. For the Church to thrive, a shift was made to promote the growth of families over the early asceticism. I believe it was the Spirit who lead this because as Holy as some of our Saints are, they were still men and only God knows how everything will unfold.

Read the writings of Augustine and Aquinas, their views on marriage and sexuality are not what the Church teaches anymore… yet we did at one time. As populations change and the needs change I believe the spirit will lead to changes in our teachings on some of these subjects when the time is right. Maybe that’s soon, or maybe it isn’t.

However from a philosophical / psychological standpoint I see the suggestion of abstinence within the bounds of marriage to unhealthy for the marriage in almost call cases. Are there some very devout individuals who are predisposed to be able to do this with the help of God Grace, of course! However I believe for the average Catholic, even the devout ones who follow the rule and live their faith, this to be a very difficult thing to ask when there are so many other things we SHOULD / COULD be doing for the Church, for Christ and for one another.

Maybe I’m wrong, maybe it’s because I was a Protestant most of my life who encouraged ABC but this is the one subject in which the teachings still don’t make sense. No I’m not saying I don’t try to follow them, just that I still find it difficult to understand the reasoning when I have seen the teaching cause many issues on this board and knowing the difficulties it caused in our marriage as well for a while.

Feel free to disagree, I definitely do not have all the answers!

Joe

 

[jwashu]

Its not the Cafeteria Catholic that we hate, its that sin of trying to convince others to join you in your sin. You know the old “love the sinner, hate the sin.”

About abstinence, what would you do if your spouse became so sick they couldn’t have marital relations for 6 months? Or forever? If you have children, what did you do after the birth of your child? For us, it was 7 weeks, and I was on bed rest for 3 before the birth. That makes 10 weeks. What do you think the spouses of those overseas do? I have a friend that will be gone for 14 months, what will his wife do?

Now I wouldn’t want to think about going forever, I can look back during my married life and see that there were many times of abstinence. After the birth of our child, after my husband’s heart attack, after my leg surgery were each times of at least 8 weeks of abstinence. Was it fun, no. But if I had to do it again, I could.

Mary, I believe as spouses we make sacrifices for each other. My wife and I have 4 children and definitely understand there are times for abstinence. I believe the OP and some others on this thread are talking about clinically sexless marriages (couples who have sex less than 10 times a year). There are always situations that demand change, the question on the threat though is in regards to 2 people who desire to and can have normal relations not doing so for religious reasons.

Joe

 

[Rascalking]

Its not the Cafeteria Catholic that we hate, its that sin of trying to convince others to join you in your sin. You know the old “love the sinner, hate the sin.”

About abstinence, what would you do if your spouse became so sick they couldn’t have marital relations for 6 months? Or forever? If you have children, what did you do after the birth of your child? For us, it was 7 weeks, and I was on bed rest for 3 before the birth. That makes 10 weeks. What do you think the spouses of those overseas do? I have a friend that will be gone for 14 months, what will his wife do?

Now I wouldn’t want to think about going forever, I can look back during my married life and see that there were many times of abstinence. After the birth of our child, after my husband’s heart attack, after my leg surgery were each times of at least 8 weeks of abstinence. Was it fun, no. But if I had to do it again, I could.

I never tried to convince anyone, thank you, simply told someone I agree with them.

About abstinence, the answer to all your questions is yes, I would.Sadly though, that is not the case for many people who have issues with NFP. Periodic abstinence for health reasons is one thing, but for a normal healthy married couple, it could lead to a real and damaging problem. Ironically, many of the couples I know who practice NFP tend to be a bit sad…andmy dad comes from a huge family. It’s caused a huge amount of problems for everyone involved. Of course, these might be exceptions. I’m not sure.

Peace and grease…

 

[Bluegoat]

I have to say, I’ve just never really understood the whole problem with abstinence within marriage - I mean the theoretical problem. It’s not (alas) that I don’t get lust, or even the desire for physical affection. But whoever said that married people have a free ride to have sex when they want, or even a lot of the time? Why should someone who is lucky enough to find a person they want to marry be excused from having to have periods of celibacy, or long term celibacy?

We expect single people to refrain, and teenagers with crazy hormones, and homosexuals, and people that have some other impediment to marriage. Is it somehow easier for them because they aren’t married? Married people should be really happy that they get regular sex, or sporadic sex, or occasional sex, or that at one time they got those things. Lots of people would love to have “legitimate” sex and never have the opportunity.

 

[shannyk]

Good grief…

OP I’m sorry you’ve been bombarded with this when you asked a simple question.

Like EM and Jennifer said, get to the bottom of WHY NFP isn’t working for you. Have you looked into other methods? fertility monitors? seen NFP doctors or instructors?

It’s hard to give specific answers without knowing your situation better…perhaps if you could elaborate the many knowledgeable posters here could help more

I have to say, I’ve just never really understood the whole problem with abstinence within marriage - I mean the theoretical problem. It’s not (alas) that I don’t get lust, or even the desire for physical affection. But whoever said that married people have a free ride to have sex when they want, or even a lot of the time? Why should someone who is lucky enough to find a person they want to marry be excused from having to have periods of celibacy, or long term celibacy?

We expect single people to refrain, and teenagers with crazy hormones, and homosexuals, and people that have some other impediment to marriage. Is it somehow easier for them because they aren’t married? Married people should be really happy that they get regular sex, or sporadic sex, or occasional sex, or that at one time they got those things. Lots of people would love to have “legitimate” sex and never have the opportunity.

Well isn’t that a whole boatload of good sense right there!

 

[flyingfish]

How many children did you conceive when trying to practice NFP?

Maybe you can make it work by being very strict with it? Such as having sex only 1 week in a month?

I don’t think God would want your marriage to fall apart because of this. Saving your marriage should be a priority. Talk to your priest about what to do.

 

[LongingForLight]

What I would like to hear in this thread are people’s positive experiences of abstinence. Can it be beneficial to a marriage? If yes, how? Please give me examples.

We needed to abstain for six months when our twins were 6 months to one year. I think it was a bit rough at the time, but honestly don’t recall. We did have some benefits, however. The biggest is that the stress of marrying, moving, changing jobs, me getting pregnant, finding out it was twins, me having to quit my job early because of health problems, the birth, etc. had left my husband too stressed to have much interest in sexual union. This was very frustrating for me. The six month break seemed to help him regain his interest.

Another benefit was that we learned that sex really was relatively unimportant to our love for each other. Abstinence didn’t hurt our relationship or sense of being loved at all. After a while, it was just a fact of life and we adjusted. We were glad when my body returned to its normal patterns and NFP became an option again, but honestly, abstaining for two weeks a month is more stressful since you are always re-adjusting.

The final benefit is that after six months of abstinence, we were more eager to be fully open to life again as soon as we thought we could afford it - me especially. It was still another 18 months before I actually became pregnant, but we started being a lot less careful with our NFP due to me wanting a baby so badly (and no, we still can’t afford a baby . . . I really hope DH gets a job before my January due date ). On the other hand, if abstinence had been hard for us, we probably would have been more careful with NFP since we will almost certainly face a similar period of abstinence at some point while I am breastfeeding this baby.

Things that made it easier:
DH respected my strong desire to be chaste in our marriage (no ABC), so there was no contention over giving in to temptation. ABC just wasn’t an option.

There was no doubt that we couldn’t handle a pregnancy right then - I needed to work and not take time off for birth, or we would not be able to pay rent. We were buying groceries on credit when I wasn’t working, and that just isn’t sustainable - plus I needed health insurance. We also knew that I had the gene for twins, and had about a 1 out of 5 chance of having twins again - something which would have forced us to live with friends to get by, and we had no friends who were available to a family with four children under 2. So there were no arguments to try and find alternatives, like “just taking a risk” because one of us was really in the mood. If one partner is less convinced of the need to avoid pregnancy, I think that could be very stressful.

Neither of us associated ‘no sex’ with ‘no love’. We were already in the habit of showing our love in ways other than sex, so finding other ways to show affection was no big deal.

We were just too busy to stress out over it. Juggling work schedules, housework, breastfeeding and pumping, and getting a little time to chill out and enjoy each other’s company was about all we could handle.

Hope this helps. There are silver linings. Do try and find other ways to keep up the romance.

 

[Calliso]

I have to say, I’ve just never really understood the whole problem with abstinence within marriage - I mean the theoretical problem. It’s not (alas) that I don’t get lust, or even the desire for physical affection. But whoever said that married people have a free ride to have sex when they want, or even a lot of the time? Why should someone who is lucky enough to find a person they want to marry be excused from having to have periods of celibacy, or long term celibacy?

We expect single people to refrain, and teenagers with crazy hormones, and homosexuals, and people that have some other impediment to marriage. Is it somehow easier for them because they aren’t married? Married people should be really happy that they get regular sex, or sporadic sex, or occasional sex, or that at one time they got those things. Lots of people would love to have “legitimate” sex and never have the opportunity.

Actually I think it is easier for single people to remain abstinant. I mean imagine sleeping next to your wife or husband every night and not being able to do anything despite your desire for them. I mean typically a single or homesexual person doesn;t have to live with the one they love the one they married and not be able to physical express their love for that person. Now I am not saying it isn;t a struggle for singles and what not. But based on my own experiences it is a lot harder being married and still having to be abstinant for long periods of time.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Actually I think it is easier for single people to remain abstinant. I mean imagine sleeping next to your wife or husband every night and not being able to do anything despite your desire for them.

But, unless a pregnancy will physically hurt the wife, a married couple *doesn’t have to *refrain from sex. They may choose to refrain, but that is not a requirement of their virtue. Quite the contrary, sexual expression within marriage is a radically humble act, an act that in itself might be called a virtue.

I mean typically a single or homesexual person doesn;t have to live with the one they love the one they married and not be able to physical express their love for that person. Now I am not saying it isn;t a struggle for singles and what not. But based on my own experiences it is a lot harder being married and still having to be abstinant for long periods of time.

You keep using that word “having to”. But the only person who can *make *you abstain is your spouse. Now **that **would be a difficult trial, but God will provide grace for whatever things we *have to *do. He will not necessarily provide grace for our every whim.

 

[utunumsint]

Yesterday was a bad day. I had spiritual direction and a good confession, so things are much brighter today.

For anyone who has doubts, I love the church, and believe in all of her teachings. I’m just having problems implementing them.

We really didn’t try to use NFP strictly until our last pregnancy, and unfortunatly, I didn’t realize how strongly my wife felt about spacing our second and third child until it was too late. This has created problems for us that we are still working out.

Now that our third is born, she is five weeks post partum, and we are definitly both on the same page, but we are also very afraid of taking risks. And lets face it, even when one practices NFP, one should always be open to life.

So because she is exclusively breastfeeding, it will take a while for her cycles to come back (the last two have been 8 to 9 months). That means long term abstinence.

We also know from before we were married that she could have cycles as long as three months to as short as 30 days. My theory is that stress plays a huge part in the lengthier cycles. I’m also working on getting her to eat healthy, take vitamine pills, and excercise.

We are also planning on trying to ween our baby from night feedings at around 3 or 4 months to try and kickstart her cycles.

Regardless what happens, she is not happy about the prospect of having a fourth child any time soon (or ever). We’ve had three in the last five years. I have no problems with having more, but her emotional and physical health takes priority. So abstinence is really important right now. Trying to make it as positive as possible is also important. So I’m working on my cheery smile, goofy jokes, and general positive attitude. We have got a 14 year old to help out during the day, so hopefully that will help.

As for NFP classes, we took some sympto thermal classes from a couple who used it to conceive, having had fertility problem. We also have the creighton method books which have been very helpful, and recently we bought an OvaCue.

God bless,
Ut

 

[agapewolf]

As for NFP classes, we took some sympto thermal classes from a couple who used it to conceive, having had fertility problem. We also have the creighton method books which have been very helpful, and recently we bought an OvaCue.

God bless,
Ut

Well, there you go.

Creighton can’t be learned from books. It must be learned from regular visits to a teacher.
Mixing the 2 methods is just extremely confusing, especially because of some of the cross terminology used, for different things.

After your last explanation here, it isn’t that nfp isn’t working…there are many other factors at play here.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Yesterday was a bad day. I had spiritual direction and a good confession, so things are much brighter today.

For anyone who has doubts, I love the church, and believe in all of her teachings. I’m just having problems implementing them.

We really didn’t try to use NFP strictly until our last pregnancy, and unfortunatly, I didn’t realize how strongly my wife felt about spacing our second and third child until it was too late. This has created problems for us that we are still working out.

Now that our third is born, she is five weeks post partum, and we are definitly both on the same page, but we are also very afraid of taking risks. And lets face it, even when one practices NFP, one should always be open to life.

So because she is exclusively breastfeeding, it will take a while for her cycles to come back (the last two have been 8 to 9 months). That means long term abstinence.

We also know from before we were married that she could have cycles as long as three months to as short as 30 days. My theory is that stress plays a huge part in the lengthier cycles. I’m also working on getting her to eat healthy, take vitamine pills, and excercise.

We are also planning on trying to ween our baby from night feedings at around 3 or 4 months to try and kickstart her cycles.

Regardless what happens, she is not happy about the prospect of having a fourth child any time soon (or ever). We’ve had three in the last five years. I have no problems with having more, but her emotional and physical health takes priority. So abstinence is really important right now. Trying to make it as positive as possible is also important. So I’m working on my cheery smile, goofy jokes, and general positive attitude. We have got a 14 year old to help out during the day, so hopefully that will help.

As for NFP classes, we took some sympto thermal classes from a couple who used it to conceive, having had fertility problem. We also have the creighton method books which have been very helpful, and recently we bought an OvaCue.

God bless,
Ut

Let me first start out by saying congratulations on your new baby. 5 weeks old is right when the exhaustion is hitting the peak, so - as a working mother of 3 (who I exclusively BF) and uses NFP to avoid/space - BELIEVE ME when I say… I understand.

I HIGHLY encourage you to call your NFP teaching couple. Maybe they are not the perfect teachers (since *they *struggled with infertility), but maybe they could recommend someone who would have a better understanding. Continuing and expanding your NFP knowledge is KEY… read and re-read your books. Find message boards dedicated to NFP. Find new books that may describe something in a new way. Constantly educate yourselves.

Feel free to start another thread here… or if you don’t feel comfortable with that - you (or your wife) can feel free to PM me… about *specifics *on the sympto-thermal method while BF’ing… talk about it, live it… it can REALLY help!

Here are some good resources:
nfpandmore.com/nfphowto.shtml - FREE how-to booklet and printable charts. Maybe a different manual may describe something in a new way and may help.
tcoyf.com/ - I HIGHLY recommend this book. It’s from a more medical standpoint. It is NOT Catholic, so ignore the portions where it says to use barrier methods during the fertile signs, but overall a VERY good resource on the sympto-thermal method.
community.babycenter.com/groups/a18445/natural_family_planning - just one of dozens of different message boards on the web dedicated to NFP. ASK!

Abstinence is HARD - I don’t think our marriage could handle it for that long. But, we HAVE successfully navigated our way through the questionable BF’ing months using NFP 3 times now! So it IS possible.

You and your family will be in my prayers!

 

[Tosk]

Yesterday was a bad day. I had spiritual direction and a good confession, so things are much brighter today.

For anyone who has doubts, I love the church, and believe in all of her teachings. I’m just having problems implementing them.

We really didn’t try to use NFP strictly until our last pregnancy, and unfortunatly, I didn’t realize how strongly my wife felt about spacing our second and third child until it was too late. This has created problems for us that we are still working out.

Now that our third is born, she is five weeks post partum, and we are definitly both on the same page, but we are also very afraid of taking risks. And lets face it, even when one practices NFP, one should always be open to life.

So because she is exclusively breastfeeding, it will take a while for her cycles to come back (the last two have been 8 to 9 months). That means long term abstinence.

We also know from before we were married that she could have cycles as long as three months to as short as 30 days. My theory is that stress plays a huge part in the lengthier cycles. I’m also working on getting her to eat healthy, take vitamine pills, and excercise.

We are also planning on trying to ween our baby from night feedings at around 3 or 4 months to try and kickstart her cycles.

Regardless what happens, she is not happy about the prospect of having a fourth child any time soon (or ever). We’ve had three in the last five years. I have no problems with having more, but her emotional and physical health takes priority. So abstinence is really important right now. Trying to make it as positive as possible is also important. So I’m working on my cheery smile, goofy jokes, and general positive attitude. We have got a 14 year old to help out during the day, so hopefully that will help.

As for NFP classes, we took some sympto thermal classes from a couple who used it to conceive, having had fertility problem. We also have the creighton method books which have been very helpful, and recently we bought an OvaCue.

God bless,
Ut

Maybe you should see a doctor about the irregular cycles. He might have to prescribe some sort of oral contraception for medical purposes and that would mean no more NFP. :extrahappy: :dancing: :dancing:

You should at least check and see about it.

 

[whm]

UT,

It seems you have good reason, at least for the next couple of years to avoid pregnancy so that the 2 of you can properly care for the 3 little ones you have now. Your are greatly blessed to have 3 babies.

I have been thinking about this a lot lately and I think that if you have good reason to abstain (and I think you do) that there are graces that can be obtained by abstaining. You do need to embrace it with the right attitude though to receive them. I know that when I feel sorry (not saying that you are) for myself all the sacrifices have little meaning or grace.

Remember that we are all called to be as saintly as mother Teresa, according to our own vocation in life. We all have our crosses. This is a very difficult cross to carry for a young man. It is a true test of a man to persevere. I have walked the same road for 8 years, and although I have fallen at times, I am not fallen right now and haven’t fallen since I got my “mind right” (Cool Hand Luke ). Another piece of advice is to avoid impure forms of entertainment like the plague.

I recommend that you make a point to discuss it with your wife from time to time. Let her know that it can be difficult and that it helps to talk and discuss how much you love each other despite not being able to share physical union at this time. It hurts her as well, although in a different way than it hurts you.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Maybe you should see a doctor about the irregular cycles. He might have to prescribe some sort of oral contraception for medical purposes and that would mean no more NFP. :extrahappy: :dancing: :dancing:

You should at least check and see about it.

Irregular cycles are perfectly healthy and normal while BF’ing. There would be nothing to “fix”.