Abstinence in marriage

[Tosk]

It’s amazing to me that people don’t get this connection.

People say they can abstain if needed because of handicap or illness…which is only a peripheral reason honestly…becasue of the nature of the sex act needed certain energy.

But to abstain because not desiring the actual natural cause of sex …children…people have an issue with this. It doesn’t make sense.

It is because of the wonders of modern birth control technology. There is no good reason to abstain because of fear of children considering you have methods of birth control, like NFP or LAM, that are supposedly 99 percent effective and permitted by the Church.

If you were handicapped and there was a way to fix the physical impediment and return to normal sexual relations I wouldn’t see any reason not to do that either. There is no reason to approach the problem as if we were living in the 16th century where the only option was children or abstinence.

 

[agapewolf]

It is because of the wonders of modern birth control technology. There is no good reason to abstain because of fear of children considering you have methods of birth control, like NFP or LAM, that are supposedly 99 percent effective and permitted by the Church.

If you were handicapped and there was a way to fix the physical impediment and return to normal sexual relations I wouldn’t see any reason not to do that either. There is no reason to approach the problem as if we were living in the 16th century were the only option was children or abstinence.

You’ve missed my point entirely.

NFP IS abstaining because of wanting to avoid the natural consequences of sex.

This isn’t approaching the prob in the 16th century. There is no problem really. Sex = babies. Moral truths are timeless.

 

[PennitentMan]

While you’re free to share your personal experience, you can’t possibly claim as a fact that long term abstinence does harm to a marriage.

Remember the OP’s clear request?

Hence my statement of my un-asked for two cents. I totally understood the request, but I wanted to give the flip side to it…the truth of the matter.

And I think that my own, and the OP’s own testimony already show that I can, and do claim that. Not in all cases, but in enough cases that it’s valid. When I went through this, I heard from many, many people claiming the same thing… So, from what I’ve seen, experienced and heard, yes I can claim that.

PennitentMan, you’ve posted extensively on the exact opposite!

I know, you mentioned that above

Since you’ve turned from things like Catholicism and marital abstinence, you claim to have found peace. I’ll have to take you at your word as your posts sound anything but peaceful.

I only feel this turmoil when I re-visit these threads and have to talk about it again. But I do in the hope that someone can identify that they are not alone struggling with all their might against these kinds of teachings.

On a lighter note, I think God loves Canadians. After all, He gave us* The Red Green Show…*
Anything is possible with ducktape! Lol! Love it!

 

[Jennifer_J]

And that is one of the cruxes of the churches inability to apply their rules to society, or should I rather say why the churches rules fail in society and why 95% of Catholics use ABC. The church just don’t get it that the two have to be separated. The actually even teach it in NFP classes, they just phrase it so that it sounds like it’s inseparable.

Every time you willingly engage in sex while knowing that you are in the infertile part of your cycle, specifically those for whom NFP works, you are separating the act.

You are generalizing.

NFP doesn’t separate anything. It is not sinful to engage in sex anytime during a woman’s cycle–even the naturally infertile times, just like it’s not sinful for a naturally infertile couple to have sex. Just knowing you are infertile doesn’t separate anything. The act is objectively open to procreation, even if the act is subjectivly not fertile. Nothing is done to render the act infertile, it just naturally is. This is light years away from the deliberate use of contracpetion–it alters the act.

 

[whm]

And that is one of the cruxes of the churches inability to apply their rules to society, or should I rather say why the churches rules fail in society and why 95% of Catholics use ABC. The church just don’t get it that the two have to be separated. The actually even teach it in NFP classes, they just phrase it so that it sounds like it’s inseparable.

Every time you willingly engage in sex while knowing that you are in the infertile part of your cycle, specifically those for whom NFP works, you are separating the act.

Please provide a citation for your 95% figure.

Th OP’s three children while trying to use NFP go against your statement.

 

[Tosk]

You’ve missed my point entirely.

NFP IS abstaining because of wanting to avoid the natural consequences of sex.

This isn’t approaching the prob in the 16th century. There is no problem really. Sex = babies. Moral truths are timeless.

People are talking about using complete abstinence to avoid babies which is approaching the problem assuming we are still in the 16th century. That is all I was talking about. A couple can use NFP and only have to abstain for a week at a time, which is child’s play as far as I’m concerned. Getting NFP to work might be a challenge if there is some underlying condition that makes it difficult but you can just about always get some method to work.

 

[PennitentMan]

Please provide a citation for your 95% figure.

I can’t, I’ll admit that. It’s a general consensus out there and mentioned on CAF a few times too. Do you have some real figures to correct me with? I’ll gladly read that.

 

[whm]

I can’t, I’ll admit that. It’s a general consensus out there and mentioned on CAF a few times too. Do you have some real figures to correct me with? I’ll gladly read that.

95% seems really high, I would say it depends on who you include in the denominator. Just like political polls, I would only consider Catholics that attend mass more or less every week. Most of these polls include people who go to church twice a year or are simply Catholic by heritage.

I would agree that the actual number would be high, but not 95% of practicing Catholics.

 

[agapewolf]

People are talking about using complete abstinence to avoid babies which is approaching the problem assuming we are still in the 16th century. That is all I was talking about. A couple can use NFP and only have to abstain for a week at a time, which is child’s play as far as I’m concerned. Getting NFP to work might be a challenge if there is some underlying condition that makes it difficult but you can just about always get some method to work.

And your reply to my post made my point go completely missed, because it had nothing to do with my point.

My point was that abstaining, in general (short or long time period, doesn’t matter) to avoid the natural consequence that sex causes…children…is somehow wrong to people…but people can avoid it for other tangent reasons.

 

[PennitentMan]

I would agree that the actual number would be high

Essentially, this was what I was implying, so yeah, let me retract 95% and state that an unusually high number of practicing catholics are using ABC.

 

[agapewolf]

Essentially, this was what I was implying, so yeah, let me retract 95% and state that an unusually high number of practicing catholics are using ABC.

Practicing catholics wouldn’t use ABC. They are then not practicing the Catholic faith.

 

[Good_Daughter]

With all due respect, when talking about "car accidents and massive diseases that cause an inability to make love, that has NOTHING to do with a normal, healthy couples lovemaking. There is a huge, astronomical difference between a young, healthy, and normal couples sex life and a couple who has physical disabilies. You can’t comapare the two.

Except for the the fact that young, healthy couples have reasons to abstain too.

I’m currently 38 weeks pregnant and have a low-lying placenta. I’m perfectly healthy but as a precaution my husband and I are abstaining from sex and have been for some time. We’re experiencing sacrificial love in action and it’s only enhanced our marital intimacy. It’s confirmed for me that I’m married to a man who is willing to, in the words of JPII, “Do whatever love requires”.

 

[Tosk]

Practicing catholics wouldn’t use ABC. They are then not practicing the Catholic faith.

I don’t know. I guess I would say they are practicing Catholics who are committing a serious sin. If sinning meant that you were not a practicing Catholic there wouldn’t be any Catholics in this world.

 

[PennitentMan]

Practicing catholics wouldn’t use ABC. They are then not practicing the Catholic faith.

Lol! True…I think many, many cahtolics would disagree, especially the ones that use ABC

 

[Tosk]

And your reply to my post made my point go completely missed, because it had nothing to do with my point.

My point was that abstaining, in general (short or long time period, doesn’t matter) to avoid the natural consequence that sex causes…children…is somehow wrong to people…but people can avoid it for other tangent reasons.

Ok Gotcha. Thankfully only short periods of abstinence are required any more to avoid those darn babies. I know short is a relative term, but still nobody has to abstain for the rest of their lives any more. Complete abstinence to avoid children does seem unnecessarily harsh and masochistic to me, if only because there are other easier methods to use.

 

[PennitentMan]

I know short is a relative term, but still nobody has to abstain for the rest of their lives any more.

I don’t think this is accurate. there are many couples for which NFP doesn’t work, and if you throw a life threatening condition in, there you have it.

I’ve read that on CAF a lot before too.

 

[whatevergirl]

*Priests and religious take vows of celibacy for a lifetime. With God, **all **things are possible. *

 

[agapewolf]

I don’t know. I guess I would say they are practicing Catholics who are committing a serious sin. If sinning meant that you were not a practicing Catholic there wouldn’t be any Catholics in this world.

Most “Catholics” who use birth control, I would guess, are rationalizing that it isn’t a sin and making up what is good and bad on their own. I would not call these “practicing catholics” as their beliefs do not line up with church teaching.

A few might believe it is a sin in some way, and still do it for whatever reason- perhaps confessing it. Those folks I would more likely consider to be called “practicing Catholics”.

 

[PennitentMan]

*Priests and religious take vows of celibacy for a lifetime. With God, **all ***things are possible.

The difference is that they are supposed to remain celibate and they do not have a married companion close by to distract them from their celibacy.

A priest has a whole other life to deal with. Married people are supposed to be together, to love each other and to form a unit. They still sleep together, see each other naked, kiss and hug each other…Do you have any idea how damaging it is to a marriage to life with your love, but are not allowed to show her?

I know there are other ways to show love, and they are all valid….I tried them all, but trust me, within a marriage, the embrace is paramount to a healthy marriage. And I’m not talking about circumstances where it’s impossible to engage in it, like was touched on previously.
I’m talking about keeping a couple of healthy married people, how are both in the mood to do it, from engaging in sex for a very prolonged period of time.
It’s destructive. It’s a simple as that.

 

[whatevergirl]

The difference is that they are supposed to remain celibate and they do not have a married companion close by to distract them from their celibacy.

A priest has a whole other life to deal with. Married people are supposed to be together, to love each other and to form a unit. They still sleep together, see each other naked, kiss and hug each other…Do you have any idea how damaging it is to a marriage to life with your love, but are not allowed to show her?

I know there are other ways to show love, and they are all valid….I tried them all, but trust me, within a marriage, the embrace is paramount to a healthy marriage. And I’m not talking about circumstances where it’s impossible to engage in it, like was touched on previously.
I’m talking about keeping a couple of healthy married people, how are both in the mood to do it, from engaging in sex for a very prolonged period of time.
It’s destructive. It’s a simple as that.

*I should have added to that…what I mean by posting ‘with God all things are possible,’ that if a priest can take a vow of celibacy for a lifetime…we can abstain for certain periods of time. A priest can be tempted just like a married person, I would imagine.

That said, what is the alternative then, in your eyes, PM…birth control? Or other acts that don’t involve the marital embrace…or end in intercourse? You left the faith, but as I recall, your wife was ill (?)…and the marital embrace was a hardship…and therefore abstaining was what you were doing. That said, how did leaving the faith change that? I’m sincerely asking the question. *