Abuse in Ireland....Why is Punishment typically utilized to teach our catholic christian faith?

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After reading the inquiry of thousands of abuse cases in Ireland, and actually reallzing that our Sisters at our Parish belong to one of the orders under investigation, it is making me question my faith. Is there a prevalence to utilize temporal, corporal, and sexual punishment because many people believe that through suffering, it will help others get to heaven? Or do most people believe that it is a dysfunctional behavior in which peole have difficulty controlling their anger and impulses?

Do you think that the religious justify their behavior by thinking that God wants them to do this?

It is heart wrenching and I’d like to know why these types of behaviors occur moreso in our Catholic faith. Any ideas?
 
CKNICKERBOCKER said:
Or do most people believe that it is a dysfunctional behavior in which peole have difficulty controlling their anger and impulses?
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I believe it is dysfunctional behavior and people have difficulty in controlling anger and impulses.

I teach in an elementary school, and one of our students moved here from Asia right before this school year. His English was OK - he could speak it fairly well, but had difficulty interpreting the subtleties in reading the written form. The staff worked extra hard with him to bring him up to grade level in his reading comprehension (which he has achieved!)👍
A few weeks ago, I was working with him and praising him on his great success this school year. He looked at me and thanked me for not hitting him or striking his hands when he got things wrong this school year! I was so surprised, I did not know what to say. I said I would never strike a student, nor would anyone else at our school, because we would immediately be dismissed, and it was wrong. I asked where he got that idea that teachers would hit him. He said at the school he attended the previous years in Asia, the teachers would strike the children if they did not understand something as quickly as the teachers thought they should or if they made errors. :eek:
In talking with his mother later, she confirmed that. She said the competition to do well academically is SOOOO high that some teachers feel it is a reflection on them if their students don’t understand something or need material covered repeatedly. So they strike out (in anger and frustration).
 

CKNICKERBOCKER said:
After reading the inquiry of thousands of abuse cases in Ireland, and actually reallzing that our Sisters at our Parish belong to one of the orders under investigation, **it is making me question my faith. **…
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Disheartening? Yes without a doubt!..Disappointing? Yes with out a doubt!..but this (and sadly so many other scandalous issues like it)** should not**…in fact must not be a faith issue for you or me. Not even close to one!

Who & What is your faith…my faith… based on? 1. Divine Revelation both Divine Scripture and Divine Tradition…both made flesh by God the Father…in His Word Made Flesh…Our Lord Jesus Christ.
2. The Holy Father, The Vicar (Visible Head ) of Christ on Earth…the Bishop of Rome and the Supreme Pontiff of the One, Holy, Catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church which Jesus Christ founded on Saint Peter, The Rock, as made it His Body…and also made it His Bride…and all the bishops (hopefully our Local Church --diocese-- Bishop) who are in communion with the Holy Father and the Magisterium of the Church.
(Note: the priest scandal is an example of bishops and priests who were** not in communion** with the Holy Father or the Magisterium of the Church).
​
I also fall into this emotional or heart broken trap too often. No More for me!

Said another way…if a pilot takes off and does something stupid (breaks the most basic aviation rules) and crashes and kills all the people aboard (like that Captain and co-pilot did when they crashed going into Buffalo, NY–shooting the breeze below 10,000 feet…while making an approach in freezing rain conditions and then letting the normal approach speed of 155 KPH deteriorate to 60 KPH…and then when the plane stalled they…pulled the nose up rather than pushing it over and adding two fists fulls of power to recover)…do we then condemn aviation as unsafe…the plane manufacture as building an unsafe aircraft…and say that we can no longer believe in the safety of flying. No! They (crew and probably the airline) were not the model that aviation safety is built upon. Don’t judge aviation (airlines, plane manufactures and especially aircrews) on this bad example (just like in so many scandalous Church issues…this crew is not totally worthless…they can always be used as a bad example…how not to do it…likewise in the Church…the “bad examples” become similar to what Pontius Pilates became to all Christians in all times…until the end time!).

So, if you or I want to doubt our faith…lets pick persons or events who do or exhibit exactly what our Catholic Faith (Church) teaches and calls for us to do…guides or prescribes for all faithful Catholics…say someone like Saint Patrick, or Blessed Columba Marmion, or Blessed Mother Theresa, or John Paul II The Great, or our current Pope Benedict XVI…not some poor sinner who did exactly what the Church says NOT TO DO!

I offer this for your consideration…with the hope that this helps…and remember, don’t feel like the “lone ranger” in this battle.

Pax Christi
 
CKNICKERBOCKER said:
After reading the inquiry of thousands of abuse cases in Ireland, and actually reallzing that our Sisters at our Parish belong to one of the orders under investigation, it is making me question my faith. Is there a prevalence to utilize temporal, corporal, and sexual punishment because many people believe that through suffering, it will help others get to heaven? Or do most people believe that it is a dysfunctional behavior in which peole have difficulty controlling their anger and impulses?

Do you think that the religious justify their behavior by thinking that God wants them to do this?

It is heart wrenching and I’d like to know why these types of behaviors occur moreso in our Catholic faith. Any ideas?
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What investigations?
 
CKNICKERBOCKER said:
After reading the inquiry of thousands of abuse cases in Ireland, and actually reallzing that our Sisters at our Parish belong to one of the orders under investigation, it is making me question my faith. Is there a prevalence to utilize temporal, corporal, and sexual punishment because many people believe that through suffering, it will help others get to heaven? Or do most people believe that it is a dysfunctional behavior in which peole have difficulty controlling their anger and impulses?

Do you think that the religious justify their behavior by thinking that God wants them to do this?

It is heart wrenching and I’d like to know why these types of behaviors occur moreso in our Catholic faith. Any ideas?
Click to expand...
People sinning is making you question your faith? Oy… Here’s some news: All people, including the Pope, sin. It’s part of our fallen nature. In the last 10,000 years, there have been but TWO people on this Earth that have not sinned (as far as I know):
The Blessed Virgin Mary
Her Son, Jesus Christ.

In addition, punishment is not solely limited to Catholics, and I hope you recognize that.

In Mohammedism, you get your hand cut off if you steal something. Yeah.
 
Don’t let the acts of humans shake your faith… they are, after all, human. If you look for a perfect church, you won’t find much of anything.

It is a distressing situation though…
 
“That is our desire, to be tortured for Our Lord, Jesus Christ, and so to be saved, for that will give us salvation and firm confidence at the more terrible universal tribunal of Our Lord and Savior.”

I just copied this from Catholic Quotes-Justin Martyr.
 
The world has some sick people, and unfortunantly some of them decide to be priests. Don’t let these people take you with them!
 
What we must not forget is that some of what is being called abuse by 2009 standards was standard corporal punishment in homes and schools of the day.

I grew up at a time where kids would routinely have the strap administered to some part of their anatomy for unruly or disrespectful behavior at school and complaining about it at home would result in a repetition of the punishment. This wasn’t limited to Catholic schools but to public schools also. Seen through today’s eyes we were all abused.

Did some teachers go overboard? Of course, like the teacher who smashed her students’ heads into the blackboard when they didn’t listen, but most were handing out what they had for centuries been taught was appropriate punishment for bad behaviour.

In no way is this to be interpreted as condoning the sexual abuse and the outright torture that many children endured.
 
These days, I am rightfully suspicious of anything that purports to be ‘abuse by Church officials.’
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
These days, I am rightfully suspicious of anything that purports to be ‘abuse by Church officials.’
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Why? If it is being revealed/admitted by the church, it is usually pretty bad? That is what I’ve seen and experienced. If it is anything small, it is squelched and silenced, but if is so bad that it has been discovered by civil authorities, it’s usually “over the top.”
 
“I am a Christian and we commit no wrongdoing.”

– Blandina, slave; repeatedly to her torturers who exhausted themselves in the face of her steadfast faith

Quote from Catholic Quotes
 
Jenny_Z said:
Quote taken out of context, doesn’t really apply here…
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A slave is a slave, and** it does apply. **

Here is a quote from the inquiry of the Laundy area.

“I was locked away in the laundry area for 6 years…I worked 6 days a week in the laundry area, and on Sundays in the kitchen. It was like a prison, the very same prison, I had done nothing wrong…”
 
Sorry, I guess I read that a different way than you were thinking…
 
CKNICKERBOCKER said:
After reading the inquiry of thousands of abuse cases in Ireland, and actually reallzing that our Sisters at our Parish belong to one of the orders under investigation, it is making me question my faith. Is there a prevalence to utilize temporal, corporal, and sexual punishment because many people believe that through suffering, it will help others get to heaven? Or do most people believe that it is a dysfunctional behavior in which peole have difficulty controlling their anger and impulses?

Do you think that the religious justify their behavior by thinking that God wants them to do this?

It is heart wrenching and I’d like to know why these types of behaviors occur moreso in our Catholic faith. Any ideas?
Click to expand...
I would guess that the Sisters at your parish have never lived in Ireland and most likely were not involved. Many of those involved are most likely long dead. The Catholic institutions have no more prevalence of this then any other institution that deals with abandoned children. There have been many children’s homes investigated for abuse and they were run by many different agencies, and religious institutions/denoninations.
 
Our sisters go to their mother house in Ireland every summer. I guarantee you…there has been some serious “turning a blind eye” to significant issues at our school, too. These nuns are 50-80 years old and still going strong.
 
CKNICKERBOCKER said:
After reading the inquiry of thousands of abuse cases in Ireland, and actually reallzing that our Sisters at our Parish belong to one of the orders under investigation, it is making me question my faith. Is there a prevalence to utilize temporal, corporal, and sexual punishment because many people believe that through suffering, it will help others get to heaven? Or do most people believe that it is a dysfunctional behavior in which peole have difficulty controlling their anger and impulses?

Do you think that the religious justify their behavior by thinking that God wants them to do this?

It is heart wrenching and I’d like to know why these types of behaviors occur moreso in our Catholic faith. Any ideas?
Click to expand...
**This is just my personal opinion:

There is no doubt that this is dysfunctional behavior; what they think is irrelevent. They are masochists who have no business in religious life. You just don’t beat the love of God into people or children and expect them to experience it later on in their lives.

However, these types of behaviors do not occur moreso in Catholicism. It occurs in all, if not moreso, other Christian denominations, but it is not reported as often as it is with regard to the Church.

You also have to remember that the good sisters in your parish probably have nothing to do with what went on in Ireland. To hold them accountable for what occurred there is probably unfair and uncharitable.**
 
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