Abuse in Ireland....Why is Punishment typically utilized to teach our catholic christian faith?

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Where does it say I’m holding them accountable for the mistakes of their sisters and brothers in Ireland??? What I’ve pointed out is that they are “in” the order being investigated. I as well as other parents have observed that these nuns have turned a blind eye to pain and suffering of children at our school.

What I’m trying to point out is that we, as a whole in our faith, need to ask ourselves what Jesus would do, and accept the grace and freedom to follow the Holy Spirit. This means exercising self control, showing charity and accepting the grace that God gives to love others.
 
Still suspicious.

The enemy smells blood and will go to any lengths to cook up a story. There was a case in Canada that was trumpeted all over the media; turned out to be false, and even the Mouthpiece of Sauron couldn’t run with it.

If I find a link I’ll return to post it.
 
Suspicious of what? Did you read the inquiry??

These people lived their whole lives, with many of them unable to put the pain of what they experienced behind them. The truth will set you free. In this case it is freedom from abuse, slavery and indifference to human suffering.

“De nile isn’t just a river!”
 
CKNICKERBOCKER said:
Suspicious of what? Did you read the inquiry??

These people lived their whole lives, with many of them unable to put the pain of what they experienced behind them. The truth will set you free. In this case it is freedom from abuse, slavery and indifference to human suffering.

“De nile isn’t just a river!”
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It’s a tricky situation, because of the numerous false accusations of abuse in the 1980s-1990s. This has made people suspicious of claims, and that is unfortunate. I read sections of the report, and it is saddening. Conditions were better in some places than in others…

But in response to your contention that this is in any way related to our Faith, I would say a resounding No!!! Many other institutions were investigated at the time and found to have as much if not more problems in these areas. Institutions now have huge problems: the rate of sexual abuse is the same or higher in other denominations, foster homes and schools have high rates of sexual abuse as do single-parent homes, etc, etc, etc.

But the Church is unified. There are 50 million Catholics in the US. There are only 3 million Episcopalians. That means that anything that happens in the Episcopal church is only about 3% of what occurs in the Catholic Church. Guess which will hit the news?

Additionally, the Catholic Church always teaches the same thing. We have always taught that artificial birth control, homosexual activity, and abortion are wrong. The other ecclesial communities have for the most part dropped their opposition to most of these behaviors. So when it happens in a group which doesn’t have such high standards, it’s not as big of a deal, but when it happens in the Church, it is a huge temptation to sinners to crow about it because the Church teaches that what they do is wrong, so when they catch (bad) members of the Church doing wrong things, then it salves their conscience.

So, yes, people in the Church have gone astray… remember that all the heretical groups have come from the Church, too.
 
Two points:

I find the title of this thread accusatory, or misleading at best.

And let’s not go so overboard as a people that we define writing with a red pen to correct test scores as ‘abuse’ because ‘correcting children damages their self-esteem.’
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
Two points:

I find the title of this thread accusatory, or misleading at best.

And let’s not go so overboard as a people that we define writing with a red pen to correct test scores as ‘abuse’ because ‘correcting children damages their self-esteem.’
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If you disagree with the title, you are failing to recognize a significant part of history of the Catholic Church.

Nobody is talking about abuse as grading papers, here.

Did you read the inquiry?
 
CKNICKERBOCKER, As for the difference in standards from yesteryear and today. of course it’s true. Interesting to note, children of yesteryear tended to be better behaved. why? because physical punishment works. It requires only a basic understanding of the principles of education and it is easy implement. Even the most hard headed child will relent when enough force is applied. Like our canadien friend stated, it’s how my generation was raised. We got it and home and at school. Public schools used the paddle and standing in the hall. Catholic schools tended towards rulers. Corrections were given and the student remained in class. His new found good behavior was a lesson to all of the students. Generally once or twice was enough. I had a music teacher who rapped you on top of your head. My fifth grade teacher took you by the short hairs if she could. The top knot if she couldn’t. Both public school teachers for what it’s worth. I don’t have a problem with physical punishment as such. But I feel it should be given at home.

When I read about the abuses in ireland I’m torn as to whether I should believe all of it. Certainly there is some truth. I was shocked to hear of all the sexual abuse alleged in the states. But again, there must be atleast some truth to it.

In the end, if you want a reason to leave the church. There are plenty to go around. Take your pick. I’ll stick with her.
 
Questioning faith doesn’t necesarily mean leaving. For me it means wondering, and asking for clarification.

So if physical punishment is so effective, why didn’t Jesus use it? The only time he used a whip was to drive the money changers from the temple.

Jesus used healings with admonishment, and teaching in the form of parables, for the most part. Since this is so, aren’t we called to follow His example?
 
Mickey_Finn said:
CKNICKERBOCKER, As for the difference in standards from yesteryear and today. of course it’s true. Interesting to note, children of yesteryear tended to be better behaved. why? because physical punishment works. It requires only a basic understanding of the principles of education and it is easy implement. Even the most hard headed child will relent when enough force is applied. Like our canadien friend stated, it’s how my generation was raised. We got it and home and at school. Public schools used the paddle and standing in the hall. Catholic schools tended towards rulers. Corrections were given and the student remained in class. His new found good behavior was a lesson to all of the students. Generally once or twice was enough. I had a music teacher who rapped you on top of your head. My fifth grade teacher took you by the short hairs if she could. The top knot if she couldn’t. Both public school teachers for what it’s worth. I don’t have a problem with physical punishment as such. But I feel it should be given at home.

When I read about the abuses in ireland I’m torn as to whether I should believe all of it. Certainly there is some truth. I was shocked to hear of all the sexual abuse alleged in the states. But again, there must be atleast some truth to it.

In the end, if you want a reason to leave the church. There are plenty to go around. Take your pick. I’ll stick with her.
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True.

Actions have consequences. For far too long, people have wanted to ignore that in favor of ‘feelgood’ morality.

And I remain skeptical of the blanket statements about the church including the title of this thread.
 
The claims sound rather Dickensian. How much is true and to what extent, I don’t know, but it still reminds me of Dickens.
 
I haven’t read Dickens where the adults were shoving kids heads into toilets, sexually abusing, caning the bodies of children…come on people…you think these older Catholics are all making this stuff up before they go to meet God? Unlikely.Have a heart…and a mind…
 
CKNICKERBOCKER said:
So if physical punishment is so effective, why didn’t Jesus use it? The only time he used a whip was to drive the money changers from the temple.

Jesus used healings with admonishment, and teaching in the form of parables, for the most part. Since this is so, aren’t we called to follow His example?
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Well, he was god you know. Also, he wasn’t dealing with a classroom full of kids. I’m sure if my parents or the teachers I had could have healed a blind man or a lepar in front of me. That would have made an impression. But parables? Trust me, I had heard them all. We are called to follow his example. Having been raised with discipline I’m sure has helped me on that path.

By the way, The RED WINGS JUST WON! It’s of to the Stanley cup for sure.👍
 
AHH-the difference. Discipline vs. Abuse. I have nothing against discipline. I question abuse and the types of punishment mentioned previously.

We are made in His image and likeness, and called to be Christ-like, even in a classroom full of kids, or in a residential facility for orphaned children. I never received corporal punishment growing up, but I was disciplined.
 
cknick said:
AHH-the difference. Discipline vs. Abuse. I have nothing against discipline. I question abuse and the types of punishment mentioned previously.

We are made in His image and likeness, and called to be Christ-like, even in a classroom full of kids, or in a residential facility for orphaned children. I never received corporal punishment growing up, but I was disciplined.
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Were you really? How was that then? Sent to bed without your dinner? Time out? How much discipline do you have?

Your statement begs many questions. Please enlighten us.
 
Discipline is being taught. You can receive teaching and formation without being abused.
 
I still question the implications and assumptions in this thread’s title.
 
cknick said:
Discipline is being taught. You can receive teaching and formation without being abused.
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First of all. I don’t want to appear to be defending beating school children or any other extreme abuses of a physical nature. I don’t feel that the practices I mentioned earlier are abuse.

Discipline is not being taught.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discipline

1: punishment
2obsolete : instruction
3: a field of study
4: training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
5 a: control gained by enforcing obedience or order b: orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c: self-control
6: a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity
— dis·ci·plin·al -plə-nəl\ adjective

Discipline for our purposes here would be instilling strength and moral judgement. A disciplined person is able to act in a predictable way despite outside influences. Following ones faith despite exposure to temptation. Is a fine example.

CKNICK, I think your just mis-informed/misled.
 
training is teaching…but I appreciated the dictionary clarification:)
 
I don’t think you get the point though. Teaching emparts a certain amount of knowledge. Training goes well past that. It involves many concepts including setting up the pupil to fail so that the desired behavior is enforced. Sounds cold to see it in print. but, thats what enables someone with discipline to stick to the desired behavior. Whether it’s a student remaining in their seat and listening to the teacher without distracting the class. or pulling a gun which happens all to often it my hometown. Or the extreme of a soldier staying the course and completing his mission despite whatever set backs occur. It’s the same principle. These both are achieved because they were given discipline. Typically by just the on the spot physical corrections you seem to be opposed to.
 
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