Accident or Providence?

[underdog]

http://www.entertainmentearth.com/images/\AUTOIMAGES\DH13892lg.jpg

You must be confused.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Please give me your definition of the church?

The Body of Christ.

The Bride of Christ.

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostlic

“The Pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

“one in mind”

All of these are based on scripture, and all are exemplified in the Church established by Christ Himself, who is the chief, head, and cornerstone

 

[fbl9]

The one true church is universal which expands way beyond the doors of the Roman Catholic Church.

and which one is that???sudden thought underdog doesn’t know that there is one true Church.

 

[underdog]

The Body of Christ.

The Bride of Christ.

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostlic

“The Pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

“one in mind”

All of these are based on scripture, and all are exemplified in the Church established by Christ Himself, who is the chief, head, and cornerstone

The body of Christ is made up of people who have been redeemed by God, set apart as His vessel of mercy. I think you guys forget that truth, and tend to forget that Jesus Christ is a living being.

 

[AshleyBelle]

The body of Christ is made up of people who have been redeemed by God, set apart as His vessel of mercy. I think you guys forget that truth, and tend to forget that Jesus Christ is a living being.

 Forget that Jesus Christ is a living being?

I have to stop at that statement… Do you know who is the source, center and summit of our faith?

Do you know who is there, living present and calling each of us to Him in every mass?
I'll give you a clue, it is somebody LIVING! :)

 

[underdog]

Forget that Jesus Christ is a living being?

I have to stop at that statement… Do you know who is the source, center and summit of our faith?

Do you know who is there, living present and calling each of us to Him in every mass?

I'll give you a clue, it is somebody LIVING! :)

Are you taking about your sovereign priests who claim to call down Jesus Christ from the right hand of God, so you can eat his foesh and drink his blood?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Are you taking about your sovereign priests who claim to call down Jesus Christ from the right hand of God, so you can eat his foesh and drink his blood?

I'm talking about Christ who offers His body and blood in ongoing sacrifice, poured out and broken for the salvation of the world:)

 

[underdog]

I’m talking about Christ who offers His body and blood in ongoing sacrifice, poured out and broken for the salvation of the world

Thanks for posting that Roman Catholic practice. Now consider the Scriptures:

Hebrews 10

Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All

10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Consequently, when Christ [1] came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ [2] had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Thanks for posting that Roman Catholic practice. Now consider the Scriptures:

Hebrews 10

Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All

10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Consequently, when Christ [1] came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ [2] had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Christ sacrifice is truly once and for all.. He is our paschal lamb, and the only offering that offer salvation.  But you limit that sacrifice to one moment in time, when we know God exists outside of time. His sacrifice is ongoing in our lives..it is not recreated or re-done..but a constant work, a constant pouring out of His blood for the forgiveness of sins.

Please read John chapter 6 I take Christ at His word, and I am with Peter on this one. When our Lord asked if he too would leave, and he replied “where would I go, Lord? You have the words of eternal life!”

“Truly, truly, unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, you have no life within you.”

 

[notsmart]

Are you taking about your sovereign priests who claim to call down Jesus Christ from the right hand of God, so you can eat his foesh and drink his blood?

Christ is pleased to do just that.

1. work through man
2. be exactly where he said he would be, otherwise he is a deciever and liar.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I think you guys forget that truth, and tend to forget that Jesus Christ is a living being.

Any person who would say this cannot possibly have ever spent 10 minutes inside of a Catholic church.

Any person who would have the arrogance to say this has worked very hard to ignore the fruits of the spirit in the lives of Catholics.

Any person who would have the blindness to say this has worked very hard to ignore every good work of every martyr and every saint in this century and going back 2000 years.

This thinking is a tragedgy for the person who is so blind.

 

[underdog]

Christ sacrifice is truly once and for all… He is our paschal lamb, and the only offering that offer salvation. But you limit that sacrifice to one moment in time, when we know God exists outside of time. His sacrifice is ongoing in our lives…it is not recreated or re-done…but a constant work, a constant pouring out of His blood for the forgiveness of sins.

Please read John chapter 6 I take Christ at His word, and I am with Peter on this one. When our Lord asked if he too would leave, and he replied “where would I go, Lord? You have the words of eternal life!”

“Truly, truly, unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, you have no life within you.”

Please read John chapter 6 in context.

 

[underdog]

Christ is pleased to do just that.

1. work through man
2. be exactly where he said he would be, otherwise he is a deciever and liar.

Okay, could you present a biblical case to support priests calling down the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity from the right hand of God. It sure makes the priest sovereign over God. What happens if Jesus had something more important to do like sustaining the universe of interceding for believers instead of comming down to the sacrifical altar at the call of the priest? Are you sure Cathoics see God sovereign over man?

 

[underdog]

Any person who would say this cannot possibly have ever spent 10 minutes inside of a Catholic church.

Any person who would have the arrogance to say this has worked very hard to ignore the fruits of the spirit in the lives of Catholics.

Any person who would have the blindness to say this has worked very hard to ignore every good work of every martyr and every saint in this century and going back 2000 years.

This thinking is a tragedgy for the person who is so blind.

I see you continue to preach the Roman Catholic institution instead of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Actually, this is very common in many religions.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Please read John chapter 6 in context.

The context is the last supper... which is actually a celebration of the passover meal.  This is significant for many reasons...there are connections to the Melchiezadiek priesthood (I can never spell that correctly  lol), and it symbolizes Christ as our paschal lamb. In Jewish tradition, they were to sacrifice a lamb, mark their door posts with its blood, and then consume its flesh.  That's important to keep in mind when we question if Christ literally meant to eat His flesh and blood.

He said "truly truly this is my body and this is my blood"  And that "if you do not eat of my flesh or drink of my blood, you have no life within you."  Many left Him, saying "this is a hard teaching, Lord! Who can accept this?"

And when He turned to Peter (and this is important to note, because PETER was the first shepherd Christ entrusted with the keys to the kingdom later), and asked will you leave too? And Peter replied “Where would we go, Lord? You have the words of eternal life!”

Those who left could not accept His teaching…it sounded like cannibalism! In fact, when translated the terminology He used was actually “to chew.” The jews were forbidden to drink blood…this contradicted everything. But Jesus repeated it five times!

It’s true that He often spoke in parables…but throughout scripture when He would teach a parable, He always took the 12 aside afterwords to explain what He MEANT by it. In this case…He did not explain. It was NOT a parable…He meant His true flesh and His true blood.

In the first centuries of the church, Christians were accused by the jews, greeks, and pagans of cannibalism! That is because they heard that Christians ate flesh! So there are ECF statements clarifying that we do NOT eat human flesh…we are not cannibals.

That is because the body and blood of Christ are not pieces of our Lord. He did not tear the flesh from Himself when He said “this is my body.” He offered Himself…every time we partake of communion we are partaking of Him WHOLLY, His fully body, blood and divinity.

It would be cannibalism if it were human, mortal flesh. but we partake of Christ in His glorified body and glorified flesh…under the appearance of bread and wine.

I’ve read John 6 in context…have you?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Okay, could you present a biblical case to support priests calling down the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity from the right hand of God. It sure makes the priest sovereign over God. What happens if Jesus had something more important to do like sustaining the universe of interceding for believers instead of comming down to the sacrifical altar at the call of the priest? Are you sure Cathoics see God sovereign over man?

Jesus is our High Priest.  In John 6, HE institutes the eucharist, and offers Himself fully in the bread and wine.

As for the rest of your question…do you really think Christ is limited to where and what He can do? He is God! That’s like asking “How can He offer Himself to EVERY single person throughout history? He was just one man, who was cruicified 2000 years ago. it couldn’t have applied to all of us…”

Also…consider the story of the bread and loaves. One loaf of bread that our Lord was able to feed the thousands with. That is like Christ, the bread of life

 

[underdog]

Jesus is our High Priest. In John 6, HE institutes the eucharist, and offers Himself fully in the bread and wine.

As for the rest of your question…do you really think Christ is limited to where and what He can do? He is God! That’s like asking “How can He offer Himself to EVERY single person throughout history? He was just one man, who was cruicified 2000 years ago. it couldn’t have applied to all of us…”

Also…consider the story of the bread and loaves. One loaf of bread that our Lord was able to feed the thousands with. That is like Christ, the bread of life

I guess we are going to start learning to disagree argeeably. What do you think is our primary purpose should be in this life as a Christian? I think our answers will reveal our hearts. I hope many will answer this question.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I see you continue to preach the Roman Catholic institution instead of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Actually, this is very common in many religions.

This is a complete distortion… however, why let myself be trapped into a corner? Why constantly deny and defend that I don’t understand and adhere to the doctrine that I am a sinner saved by grace alone and that I am sanctified through the Holy Spirit?

You show me how I am not doing that. The burden of the proof is on YOU to show that I am preaching an institution. I dare you to show me where I have done so.

I would not want to be in your shoes, and have so much wrong judgment of others to answer to the Lord for right now. That actually is enough to make me no longer angry for you, but worried.

 

[underdog]

This is a complete distortion… however, why let myself be trapped into a corner? Why constantly deny and defend that I don’t understand and adhere to the doctrine that I am a sinner saved by grace alone and that I am sanctified through the Holy Spirit?

You show me how I am not doing that. The burden of the proof is on YOU to show that I am preaching an institution. I dare you to show me where I have done so.

I would not want to be in your shoes, and have so much wrong judgment of others to answer to the Lord for right now. That actually is enough to make me no longer angry for you, but worried.

I took you off ignore because you seem to calm down just a tad. Don’t worry about me because God is always in control. He knows who are His. Christianity is not about understand through common sense, through debates, through intelligence, or by bulling others to believe lke each other. The Spirit is like the wind, who knows how He is working among us?

 

[underdog]

I guess we are going to start learning to disagree argeeably. What do you think is our primary purpose should be in this life as a Christian? I think our answers will reveal our hearts. I hope many will answer this question.

This question was asked to all of you. Let’s see if our hearts can be exposed some.