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tGette
Guest
To make this discussion easier…underdog…could you please tell us what you believe as a Christian. Which theology and/or ideology do you adhere to?
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fbl9
Guest
the one who sins against the Holy Spirit…all sin is forgiveable but blasphomny (sic)against the Holy Spirit…which is the sin of resisting the Holy Spirit’s call to repent.
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notsmart
Guest
Oh no. I thought you believed this, but now I know you do.
Was Jesus a dope when he chose an apostle that would give him a “different” kiss (not of peace)?
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Angels_Unaware
Guest
Romans Chapter 9 is addressed to Israel. Paul is explaining to Israel why the Gentiles have been chosen to take part in the salvation of the Messiah, while Israel has remained hardened.
It is a not a philosophical resolutions of fate vs. freewill. That is never resolved by the Bible anywhere.
You have missed the “WHAT IF”, and that’s pretty important to this passage because it indicates Paul is using a certain literary style and reasoning style to explain this to the Jews. One of the greatest stumbling blocks for them at that time was their expecations for the Messiah were so very different than what Jesus looked like, and the principle mystery was how Israel could remained hardened to the true Messiah while the Gentiles embraced him.
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Zero_the_Hero
Guest
tGette: Yes…agreed…but if He decided beforehand who would be punished and would not…how does that make sense? Predestining someone to Hell is like punishing someone before they ever did anything. How is that just and merciful?
Zero the Hero: If this view of predestination is not the case, then God does not know the actions of man before the foundations of the world. If God knows what men would do before he created the universe, then he knows who will end up in the final state of all things.
I hold to the infralapsarian view of God’s decree, which means that God foreordained humanity to everlasting life or everlasting contempt after the fall of Adam. This is not what takes place in history, but this is how God planned it out beforehand.
tGette: If God, from the beginning decided who the just and the unjust would be how does it make it the persons fault whether they were just or not? Did God choose certain people to be unjust…just so He could punish them?
Zero the Hero: He did this to make his wrath and power as well as his love and mercy known. But who are we to talk back to God? We are the pots and he is the potter.
tGette: It is not that I misunderstand…it is that I do not understand it…logically. You do believe in Double Predestination, right? If you do, well, then that means God is responsible for sin. Please show me how belief in Double Predestination can account for freewill.
Zero the Hero: I deny that God is the author of sin, and I believe that some are foreordained to everlasing life and others are foreordained to everlasting death. I don’t believe that people are put into hell with no good reason. Man’s sin is his own doing. God does not desire men to sin, since he gave us the law, which teaches us to be good. But a man sins because he loves to sin, since it is the nature of the sinner to sin.
As for freewill, I don’t have believe I have to account for that, unless you give me a defintion of what you mean because the term is ambiguous. What is the will free from?
Zero the Hero: If this view of predestination is not the case, then God does not know the actions of man before the foundations of the world. If God knows what men would do before he created the universe, then he knows who will end up in the final state of all things.
I hold to the infralapsarian view of God’s decree, which means that God foreordained humanity to everlasting life or everlasting contempt after the fall of Adam. This is not what takes place in history, but this is how God planned it out beforehand.
tGette: If God, from the beginning decided who the just and the unjust would be how does it make it the persons fault whether they were just or not? Did God choose certain people to be unjust…just so He could punish them?
Zero the Hero: He did this to make his wrath and power as well as his love and mercy known. But who are we to talk back to God? We are the pots and he is the potter.
tGette: It is not that I misunderstand…it is that I do not understand it…logically. You do believe in Double Predestination, right? If you do, well, then that means God is responsible for sin. Please show me how belief in Double Predestination can account for freewill.
Zero the Hero: I deny that God is the author of sin, and I believe that some are foreordained to everlasing life and others are foreordained to everlasting death. I don’t believe that people are put into hell with no good reason. Man’s sin is his own doing. God does not desire men to sin, since he gave us the law, which teaches us to be good. But a man sins because he loves to sin, since it is the nature of the sinner to sin.
As for freewill, I don’t have believe I have to account for that, unless you give me a defintion of what you mean because the term is ambiguous. What is the will free from?
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fbl9
Guest
one is free to choose to sin or not to sin…you keep claiming that God because He knows causes man to choose Him…Bob jumps off a skyscraper,i see Bob jump, i know Bob will die on impact.i caused Bob to die because i knew he would die.
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tGette
Guest
Knowing and causing are two different things.
So God planned sin…that is what you are saying, right?
So God is showing off? The crucifixion was not about mercy it was just to be prideful and not humble? God does not need to foreordain events to prove this. It is through the fact that disobedient, unrepentant sinners go to Hell that His wrath and power is made known. It is through the fact that obedient, repentant sinners go to Heaven by belief in the the Paschal Mystery that His mercy is made known.
You make a great point at the end here. If it is the way God did it, then we have to accept it. But we both speak of a different way God does things.
If God foreordained everything…how is sin a man’s own doing?
Say what???
Free will is a gift from God that we are free to choose as we will. Free will is God not being a puppeteer with our lives.
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Zero_the_Hero
Guest
[tGette: Yes…agreed…but if He decided beforehand who would be punished and would not…how does that make sense? Predestining someone to Hell is like punishing someone before they ever did anything. How is that just and merciful?
Zero the Hero: Since God knows the future, and then he knows that people will end up in hell. So your analogy fails because people do not know the future.
tGette: If God, from the beginning decided who the just and the unjust would be how does it make it the persons fault whether they were just or not? Did God choose certain people to be unjust…just so He could punish them?
Zero the Hero: It is the person’s fault because Adam was their federal head in the Garden of Eden. Adam represented the entire human race, and since he sinned against God, all of humanity is cursed along with Adam. Man is a rebellious sinner, and must be punished, since God is holy and just.
tGette: It is not that I misunderstand…it is that I do *not understand it…logically. You do believe in Double Predestination, right? If you do, well, then that means God is responsible for sin. Please show me how belief in Double Predestination can account for freewill.
Zero the Hero: Show me what you mean by Double Predestination and freewill, and then I will account for them.
Zero the Hero: Since God knows the future, and then he knows that people will end up in hell. So your analogy fails because people do not know the future.
tGette: If God, from the beginning decided who the just and the unjust would be how does it make it the persons fault whether they were just or not? Did God choose certain people to be unjust…just so He could punish them?
Zero the Hero: It is the person’s fault because Adam was their federal head in the Garden of Eden. Adam represented the entire human race, and since he sinned against God, all of humanity is cursed along with Adam. Man is a rebellious sinner, and must be punished, since God is holy and just.
tGette: It is not that I misunderstand…it is that I do *not understand it…logically. You do believe in Double Predestination, right? If you do, well, then that means God is responsible for sin. Please show me how belief in Double Predestination can account for freewill.
Zero the Hero: Show me what you mean by Double Predestination and freewill, and then I will account for them.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
God seems to allow for some conditionality.
For example, he bargained with Abraham about the faith of Sodom and Gomorrah, as I recall.
He said: If I can find 50 good men there, I will not destroy it… etc.
Gen 18
31 Then Abraham said, “I have been brave to speak to the Lord. But what if there are twenty good people in the city?”
He answered, “If I find twenty there, I will not destroy the city.”
32 Then Abraham said, “Lord, please don’t be angry with me, but let me bother you this one last time. What if you find ten there?”
He said, “If I find ten there, I will not destroy it.”
33 When the Lord finished speaking to Abraham, he
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Zero_the_Hero
Guest
tGette: Knowing and causing are two different things.
Zero the Hero: So God just knows what is going to happen, but he is limited in not being able to touch the free will of man. But Proverbs 21:1 says that the king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. How is the above verse consistent with free will?
tGette: So God planned sin…that is what you are saying, right?
Zero the Hero: Yes
tGette So God is showing off?
Zero the Hero: Yes, he shows off his love and wrath.
tGette: The crucifixion was not about mercy it was just to be prideful and not humble?
Zero the Hero: No, God is humble. There is nothing inconsistent in God being angry with sinners and showing his love to those that do not deserve it.
tGette: God does not need to foreordain events to prove this. It is through the fact that disobedient, unrepentant sinners go to Hell that His wrath and power is made known. It is through the fact that obedient, repentant sinners go to Heaven by belief in the Paschal Mystery that His mercy is made known.
Zero the Hero: Why would a sinner become obedient, since the law shows us our sin? If we offend the law in one point then we are guilty of the entire law. A man would only believe in the Pashal Mystery by God’s grace alone.
tGette: If God foreordained everything…how is sin a man’s own doing?
Zero the Hero: It is because man does the sinning. God cannot sin nor have evil intensions because he is perfectly good.
Zero the Hero: So God just knows what is going to happen, but he is limited in not being able to touch the free will of man. But Proverbs 21:1 says that the king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. How is the above verse consistent with free will?
tGette: So God planned sin…that is what you are saying, right?
Zero the Hero: Yes
tGette So God is showing off?
Zero the Hero: Yes, he shows off his love and wrath.
tGette: The crucifixion was not about mercy it was just to be prideful and not humble?
Zero the Hero: No, God is humble. There is nothing inconsistent in God being angry with sinners and showing his love to those that do not deserve it.
tGette: God does not need to foreordain events to prove this. It is through the fact that disobedient, unrepentant sinners go to Hell that His wrath and power is made known. It is through the fact that obedient, repentant sinners go to Heaven by belief in the Paschal Mystery that His mercy is made known.
Zero the Hero: Why would a sinner become obedient, since the law shows us our sin? If we offend the law in one point then we are guilty of the entire law. A man would only believe in the Pashal Mystery by God’s grace alone.
tGette: If God foreordained everything…how is sin a man’s own doing?
Zero the Hero: It is because man does the sinning. God cannot sin nor have evil intensions because he is perfectly good.
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fbl9
Guest
but being the cause of sin is indeed evil my friend.
by preordaining one to sin and then sending this person to hell for the sins that the man had no choice in committing is indeed causing the man to sin.
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underdog
Guest
I believe God is immutable. I thought the Roman Catholic believed that God is immutable too. Does the Catholic Church believe that God is mutable, that men can change God’s mind and will?
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AshleyBelle
Guest
Code:
God's will is immutable..but as his beloved creatures with a free will..we all may choose to accept or to deny.. To embrace, or turn away from His will for our lives. That is why we should always pray, as Christ did in the garden, "Thy will be done."That is what we find so amazing about God’s love. He certainly COULD force us to always choose His will, and even though He knows most often we fail and choose sin over His desires, He still gives us the choice…so that we may come to love Him freely, and completely.
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underdog
Guest
Good morning Ashley,
Here’s a brain twister for you. If God is immutable, then how can free will come into play in regards to salvation. The immutability of God in salvation:
Ephesians 1
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory.
Romans 8
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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AshleyBelle
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Re: underdog: “Here’s a brain twister for you. If God is immutable, then how can free will come into play in regards to salvation. The immutability of God in salvation:”
Having an immutable will in no way detracts from the fact that He also gives us a free will to accept or reject HIS immutable will
And these were the passages you cited:
I am not sure what is in conflict with the Catholic understanding of “Free will, irrisitable grace, divine providence or predestination” in regards to these passages.
You may be trying to read into them that God predestines some for hell…but that is not what they are saying. It is Catholic belief that God may predestine anyone to be set aside for heaven… As He did with the blessed mother for example. But the fact remains…we always have free will to accept or reject His grace. His will is indeed predestined, as God exists not by the constraints of human time, but outside of time…For Him the past, present and future are all one, and His will is not limited by the time of this world. He indeed knows all things, but this is because He exists in all things
While we believe He may predestine some for heaven (and indeed His will is that we ALL be with Him in heaven), it would be against His nature of mercy and love to then predestine others for condemnation. He may KNOW who will be saved, and who will choose His great gift of grace…but He is not forcing His perfect, immutable will upon any of us.
cont.
Code:
Firstly, God's will is immutable simply put means: No one may CHANGE the heart and will of God. He is God..And these were the passages you cited:
Code:
These are all great passages, and to me they illustrate God's great love for us! "His grace, which he lavished upon us!"
Truly, from the beginning of the world, it has been God's will that we all be reconciled. And He created all of us, predestined every one of us, to be children of His promise..to be united with Him for eternity. We are not created finite beings..we are created for eternal, as God:) When we partake of the Eucharist, we become "partakers of the divine nature" and in essence, He shares His divinity so that in heaven we may be like gods, as we will be perfectly conformed to His image, in unison with His perfect will. These are all amazing, and deep spiritual truths, and I thank you for bringing up these passages because they are very encouraging and close to my heart.You may be trying to read into them that God predestines some for hell…but that is not what they are saying. It is Catholic belief that God may predestine anyone to be set aside for heaven… As He did with the blessed mother for example. But the fact remains…we always have free will to accept or reject His grace. His will is indeed predestined, as God exists not by the constraints of human time, but outside of time…For Him the past, present and future are all one, and His will is not limited by the time of this world. He indeed knows all things, but this is because He exists in all things
While we believe He may predestine some for heaven (and indeed His will is that we ALL be with Him in heaven), it would be against His nature of mercy and love to then predestine others for condemnation. He may KNOW who will be saved, and who will choose His great gift of grace…but He is not forcing His perfect, immutable will upon any of us.
cont.
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AshleyBelle
Guest
post 2 of 2
It reaffirms that Christ did indeed die for ALL of us, and nothing may separate us from God’s great love. God’s “elect” in this passage is referring to those who throughout time are predestined to be with Him… Or rather, those He has known from the beginning of time (as He exists outside of time) would accept His amazing gift of grace and share eternity with Him.
Nothing may separate us from the love of Christ, amen!
God bless
Again, thank you for these beautiful passages, they are also very dear to my heart. We pray in every mass, that the Word of God may always be “in our minds, on our lips, and in our hearts.” This passage is, like many for me, very precious and dear because of the great example it gives us of God’s love for ALL
It reaffirms that Christ did indeed die for ALL of us, and nothing may separate us from God’s great love. God’s “elect” in this passage is referring to those who throughout time are predestined to be with Him… Or rather, those He has known from the beginning of time (as He exists outside of time) would accept His amazing gift of grace and share eternity with Him.
Nothing may separate us from the love of Christ, amen!
God bless
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Zero_the_Hero
Guest
Zero the Hero: It is because man does the sinning. God cannot sin nor have evil intensions because he is perfectly good.
My position is that man sins freely and necessarily, and I see no contradiction in this statement.
Zero the Hero: So when a man sins, God did not plan this, but he knew that the man would sin anyway. Is this option any better? When a man sins it is his own choice. You seem to think that my position is that God sins for man.
My position is that man sins freely and necessarily, and I see no contradiction in this statement.
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underdog
Guest
You are an universalist my dear sister in the Lord. Have you studied the biblical words of election, predestination, chosen, in the Bible?post 2 of 2
Again, thank you for these beautiful passages, they are also very dear to my heart. We pray in every mass, that the Word of God may always be “in our minds, on our lips, and in our hearts.” This passage is, like many for me, very precious and dear because of the great example it gives us of God’s love for ALL
It reaffirms that Christ did indeed die for ALL of us, and nothing may separate us from God’s great love. God’s “elect” in this passage is referring to those who throughout time are predestined to be with Him… Or rather, those He has known from the beginning of time (as He exists outside of time) would accept His amazing gift of grace and share eternity with Him.
Nothing may separate us from the love of Christ, amen!
God bless
The Resurrection of the Dead - 1 Cor 15
12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in Christ we have hope [2] in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God [3] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? 30 Why are we in danger every hour? 31 I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day! 32 What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” [4] 34 Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.
The Resurrection Body
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AshleyBelle
Guest
I am not a universalist… This is not the first time you have claimed me as such.
I am afraid you misunderstand what I have posted…and you will continue to misunderstand it as long as you believe election, predestination, and chosen mean what calvin assigned to them.
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underdog
Guest
Christ death only applies to those who are in Christ. It does not have an eternal benefit for those who are not in Christ.
Romans 8
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
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