Accompanying a fallen-away Catholic to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy

[Elijahmaria]

What good will it do the soul of the OPs friend if he supports her in her anger?

Look at what she is angry about…take a good look and tell me if that is justifiable?

Does it ever do a soul good to move in anger?

I still say he needs to step back and allow her to explore on her own. Or to counsel her against her negative thoughts and anger. Once that anger is released it is better for all concerned to accompany her where she would like to go.

Issues of authority already plague our respective Churches. Why encourage more discordant souls?

 

[PennyinCanada]

Anger and unforgiveness are best dealt with the sacraments and Christ’s mercy.
Go with her and go for lunch afterwards. Baby steps.

 

[Elijahmaria]

Anger and unforgiveness are best dealt with the sacraments and Christ’s mercy.
Go with her and go for lunch afterwards. Baby steps.

Nice sentiment but the reality is that there is no sacrament in Orthodoxy for either of them at the moment.

 

[Mickey]

Does it ever do a soul good to move in anger?

FORGIVENESS
A poem by St Nikolai Velimirovich

That God may forgive us, let us forgive men.
We are all on this earth as temporary guests.
Prolonged fasting and prayer is in vain
Without forgiveness and true mercy.
God is the true Physician; sins are leprosy.
Whomever God cleanses, God also glorifies.
Every merciful act of men, God rewards with mercy.
He who returns sin with sin perishes without mercy.
Pus is not cleansed by pus from infected wounds,
Neither is the darkness of the dungeon dispelled by darkness,
But pure balm heals the festering wound,
And light disperses the darkness of the dungeon.
To the seriously wounded, mercy is like a balm;
As if seeing a torch dispersing the darkness,
everyone rejoices in mercy.
The madman says, “I have no need of mercy!”
But when he is overcome by misery, he cries out for mercy!
Men bathe in the mercy of God,
And that mercy of God wakens us to life!
That God may forgive us, let us forgive men,
We are all on this earth as temporary guests.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think its sad that many Roman Catholics see the Orthodox Church as nothing more than “being not in communion with the Pope.” We’re striving for unity and that attitude right there is one of the biggest barriers to it.

 

[DL82]

I think its sad that many Roman Catholics see the Orthodox Church as nothing more than “being not in communion with the Pope.” We’re striving for unity and that attitude right there is one of the biggest barriers to it.

I honestly don’t see things that way, and nor does my good friend who is considering Orthodoxy. It is the emphasis on Theosis, continuing conversion, rather than legalistic distinctions of mortal and venial sin, the sense of humility and mystery, and the fact that Eastern Christians know how to sing their liturgy and take the beauty of their worship seriously, instead of mumbling along to folky guitar songs.

Its much more than just being angry with the Pope, though I can’t deny her anger makes me uncomfortable. It seems like being able to pray somewhere and follow a path that leads in the same direction, but with a different emphasis would be better than having nowhere to pray, or finding a Protestant church to lead her further into error.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I honestly don’t see things that way, and nor does my good friend who is considering Orthodoxy. It is the emphasis on Theosis, continuing conversion, rather than legalistic distinctions of mortal and venial sin, the sense of humility and mystery, and the fact that Eastern Christians know how to sing their liturgy and take the beauty of their worship seriously, instead of mumbling along to folky guitar songs.

Its much more than just being angry with the Pope, though I can’t deny her anger makes me uncomfortable. It seems like being able to pray somewhere and follow a path that leads in the same direction, but with a different emphasis would be better than having nowhere to pray, or finding a Protestant church to lead her further into error.

Sorry, I wasn’t talking about you. But whenever Orthodoxy is being discussed here, RCs run to the thread and condemn anyone who would even just look at an Orthodox parish.

I’ve read and listened to quite a few Orthodox teachers and I have yet to hear anyone bash the papacy. Most Orthodox who have issues with the Pope are lay converts.

 

[Mickey]

I’ve read and listened to quite a few Orthodox teachers and I have yet to hear anyone bash the papacy. Most Orthodox who have issues with the Pope are lay converts.

A few might “bash” the papacy…but there is no reason for this, because the Orthodox recognized the papacy for at least 1000 years. However, the majority of Orthodox (clergy, laity, teachers, converts, etc) do not agree with the Roman Catholic developments of the papacy which includes supremacy and infallibility.

 

[5Loaves]

I believe you have misinterpreted that Canon.

It states, first of all, that Catholics “CAN attend.” It doesn’t make sense for you to interpret the rest of it to mean that they can’t. The rest of the Canon is not about permission to attend (according to the first part of the Canon, the permission is already a given), but rather about certain rules that apply when one attends (e.g., receiving the Eucharist, etc.).

Blessings,
Marduk

I agree with you. When I posted the canon I interpreted it as you have. OP is not considering partaking of sacraments at the Orthodox DL, nor considering that it would fulfill her/his “Sunday obligation”, etc.

(I’m not a canon lawyer and the class in canon law we were required to take for our master catechist training taught me many things including how easy it is to misunderstand the canons I don’t think we have any EC canon lawyers on CAF.)

BTW I think that one reason we are received, in my own experience, as warmly as we are by clergy and laity in EO parishes is because we come with dignity and respect. We understand the limitations of not being in communion.

I think OP represents us Catholics well to this EO parish when she/he visits their parish with pure Christian charity foremost in her/his mind, striving to assist that the soul of this fallen away Christian be brought back to a place where she can again give glory to God and receive His mercy.

 

[L_piperatus]

I believe you have misinterpreted that Canon.

It states, first of all, that Catholics “CAN attend.” It doesn’t make sense for you to interpret the rest of it to mean that they can’t. The rest of the Canon is not about permission to attend (according to the first part of the Canon, the permission is already a given), but rather about certain rules that apply when one attends (e.g., receiving the Eucharist, etc.).

Blessings,
Marduk

Brother Marduk, regarding that Canon, I read it the following manner: first of all, the permission is not unconditional. It says that Catholics can attend “for a just cause”. Then, the question becomes: who judges what is a just cause and what is not? Is it up to the lay faithful to judge it for himself, or is he supposed to ask for guidance from the clergy? That part remains unanswered in the Canon, but I suspect when it comes to Canon Law, we laypeople are not supposed to decide these things on our own, but rather rely on the authority of our clergy.

Then, the Canon says “observing those things which, by reason of the degree of communion with the Catholic Church, are established by the eparchial bishop or by a superior authority.” This indicates, if I’m not mistaken, that even after it has been established that a “just cause” exists and the Catholic can attend liturgical worship with other Christians, the specifics of what things should be observed needs to be decided by Church authority (eparchial bishop or superior authority) rather than the layperson who attends.

Then, I read this in the Decree on Eastern Catholic Churches (Orientalium Ecclesiarium): “This conciliatory policy with regard to “communicatio in sacris” (participation in things sacred) with the brethren of the separated Eastern Churches is put into the care and control of the local hierarchs,…” - I gave a longer citation of paragraphs 26 to 29, a few posts before. This decree also indicates to me that as a layperson I’m not free to make these decisions on my own, since the policy was put into the care and control of the local Catholic hierarchs.

A joint reading of the Canon, of the citations from the Vatican’s decrees, and of Father Vincent Serpa’s answer (all quoted above) indicates to me that there is no unconditional or “blanket” permission for a Catholic to attend DL and commune at an Eastern Orthodox Church that’s not in full communion with the CC.

On a personal note, I’m rather heartbreaken writing what I write, because I know a wonderful EO Archbishop with the Basilian Fathers - see their website at www.reu.org . I met this man, Archbishop Paul, at a crossroads in my life, after first learning about Holy Mary’s apparitions at Soufanieh. Archbishop Paul has been to Soufanieh, seen the miraculous Holy Icon, and is fully committed to the message given by Jesus Christ and Theotokos at Soufanieh - a message of reuniting our Churches. I have attended DL (Western Rite) at Abp. Paul’s church (Holy Innocents Orthodox Church) many times, and even partook in the sacraments of Penance and Eucharist there. Then, I learned that what I did, was probably wrong because I did not ask for permission from my Catholic Church. Now, before I travel again to see Abp. Paul to whom I am so attached personally (he has been a true father and benefactor to me), I feel I will need to talk to my (Roman Catholic) parish priest and obtain permission to attend Divine Liturgy and partake in Holy Communion at Holy Innocents church, and I don’t know whether he will approve or not…

 

[The_Idiot]

L piperatus

Are you aware that Archbishop Paul appears to have links with the Orthodox Catholic Church of America ?

I pulled up the Site reu.org/public/default.htm

given by you in the previous Post and found on scrolling down the page that the Orthodox Catholic Church of the Americas was mentioned.

Perhaps you are not aware that this church is neither Catholic or Orthodox

 

[5Loaves]

I have attended DL (Western Rite) at Abp. Paul’s church (Holy Innocents Orthodox Church) many times, and even partook in the sacraments of Penance and Eucharist there. Then, I learned that what I did, was probably wrong because I did not ask for permission from my Catholic Church. Now, before I travel again to see Abp. Paul to whom I am so attached personally (he has been a true father and benefactor to me), I feel I will need to talk to my (Roman Catholic) parish priest and obtain permission to attend Divine Liturgy and partake in Holy Communion at Holy Innocents church, and I don’t know whether he will approve or not…

I hope you do discuss it with your priest.
As is so often the case it seems like both Catholic and Orthodox can be poorly catechized on such things. It sounds like this took place in the US and that the Orthodox priest was well aware of you being Catholic. That he offered you the sacraments of penance and Holy Eucharist is very surprising. Seems like possible “indifferentism” on his part. I realize this is a Western Rite group so perhaps they do not follow the rest of Orthodoxy here in terms of not offering the sacraments to non-Orthodox, including Catholics.

The Catholic Church has the stance that Orthodox Christians may receive sacraments in a Catholic Church so long as they are properly disposed and it’s OK with their Orthodox priest, that it would not cause them excommunication. I would say our priests receive Orthodox for the Holy Mysteries with I think the sentiment expressed in CIC Canon 844 §2 “Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided”

Orthodox priests are known to offer penance, Holy Eucharist, Holy Unction, to Catholics in some circumstances but, apart from times of grave necessity, those are typically in areas outside the US where the boundaries between the Churches, usually EC and Orthodox, are less distinct, and/or areas where no Catholic Church is present at all. Here in the US there is unlikely to be the necessity since we have recourse to our own Catholic priests. In my experience here in the US it would be very unlikely for an Orthodox priest to knowingly offer the Holy Mysteries to a Catholic or other non-Orthodox, except in cases of grave necessity. One of our parishioners told me that some years ago she/he went up and was communed at the Orthodox parish I often go to and that afterwards the deacon came up to her/him and explained that she/he may not receive Eucharist there. She/he was surprised, which made me think she/he was not well catechized when she/he came into the Catholic Church in an EC parish. This is Catholic/Orthodox 101.

 

[Elijahmaria]

Orthodox priests are known to offer penance, Holy Eucharist, Holy Unction, to Catholics in some circumstances but, apart from times of grave necessity, those are typically in areas outside the US where the boundaries between the Churches, usually EC and Orthodox, are less distinct,

Less distinct? Schism is more and less distinct?..can you find us a canon?

The woman sounds as though she needs a good spiritual father or mother and you haul out the canons…

and then talk about more and less distinct schisms…

Must say I am puzzled.

 

[5Loaves]

L piperatus

Are you aware that Archbishop Paul appears to have links with the Orthodox Catholic Church of America ?

I pulled up the Site reu.org/public/default.htm

given by you in the previous Post and found on scrolling down the page that the Orthodox Catholic Church of the Americas was mentioned.

Perhaps you are not aware that this church is neither Catholic or Orthodox

I do see at the bottom of the site L piperatus linked to:
“All contents copyright © 1994 - 2009
The Society of Clerks Secular of Saint Basil,
The Orthodox Catholic Church of the Americas,
Holy Innocents Orthodox Church”

To that extent his church which L piperatus says is “Holy Innocents Orthodox Church” has linked themselves to the OCCA.

I see in wikipedia: The OCCA is not associated with any mainstream Orthodox church… While not in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople and not regarded as “canonical” by the Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas (SCOBA), the OCCA is one of a number of churches seeking to blend Orthodoxy in an American setting. The OCCA is a standing member of the International Council of Community Churches (ICCC).

“[N]ot regarded as “canonical” by the Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas (SCOBA)” tells me the OCCA are not Orthodox. We know they aren’t Catholic…

I don’t see “Holy Innocents Orthodox Church” listed in the valid parishes of Western Rite Orthodoxy.

 

[5Loaves]

Less distinct? Schism is more and less distinct?..can you find us a canon?

The woman sounds as though she needs a good spiritual father or mother and you haul out the canons…

and then talk about more and less distinct schisms…

Must say I am puzzled.

The quote of mine you’ve quoted was directed to the strange circumstances L piperatus described of a purported Orthodox priest in America offering her penance and Eucharist while knowing her to be Catholic.

It wasn’t about OP, who makes no reference to seeking any sacraments in an Orthodox Church.

 

[Elijahmaria]

The quote of mine you’ve quoted was directed to the strange circumstances L piperatus described of a purported Orthodox priest in America offering her penance and Eucharist while knowing her to be Catholic.

It happens.

Now I guess we are both puzzled!!..

Long day…cross-eyed…pay no attention to the woman behind the curtain.

 

[ConstantineTG]

A few might “bash” the papacy…but there is no reason for this, because the Orthodox recognized the papacy for at least 1000 years. However, the majority of Orthodox (clergy, laity, teachers, converts, etc) do not agree with the Roman Catholic developments of the papacy which includes supremacy and infallibility.

Yes, they don’t agree with it but from where I stand and please correct me if I am mistaken, its not something they preoccupy themselves with. I mean, Protestant circles have their regular dose of anti-Catholic rhetoric here and there. I highly doubt Orthodox priests and bishops bother with anti-Catholic homilies.

 

[Mickey]

I highly doubt Orthodox priests and bishops bother with anti-Catholic homilies.

Correct.

 

[L_piperatus]

I am interested in this concept of ‘morally impossible’. I know there are some people who are given a dispensation from the Sunday obligation when they could still be ‘physically’ present in church, such as when someone suffers severe debilitating social anxiety. I have heard of scrupulous people being dispensed from having to enumerate their sins in confession, simply to say ‘I am a sinner’ because it is morally impossible for them to examine their conscience accurately (as someone who used to suffer from scruples I know what I’m talking about here).

I wonder if someone who is just so angry and justifiably so after being hurt again and again by the Catholic Church, and who literally can’t sit through a Mass without vomiting or having a panic attack could be described as finding it ‘morally impossible’ to participate in Catholic worship, and thus free to approach our local Orthodox priest?

DL82, I have no idea what does the cited document mean by “morally impossible”. Thanks for posting the example about someone suffering from severe social anxiety, which would be a valid reason for giving dispensation to this person. I recall the example of a poster here in CAF, who was enrolled at a Catholic seminary, and then one night he woke up to a senior priest trying to improperly touch his private parts. Poor man was so distraught, he left not only the seminary, but he abandoned the Catholic Church for several years. Some people did have traumatic experiences with the CC, which could have made it impossible or next to impossible for them to enter a Catholic church without suffering a nervous breakdown.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Here’s your approval then:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html

That doesn’t say that we should be participating in non-Catholic services.