Accompanying a fallen-away Catholic to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy

[Vico]

DL82, I have no idea what does the cited document mean by “morally impossible”. Thanks for posting the example about someone suffering from severe social anxiety, which would be a valid reason for giving dispensation to this person. I recall the example of a poster here in CAF, who was enrolled at a Catholic seminary, and then one night he woke up to a senior priest trying to improperly touch his private parts. Poor man was so distraught, he left not only the seminary, but he abandoned the Catholic Church for several years. Some people did have traumatic experiences with the CC, which could have made it impossible or next to impossible for them to enter a Catholic church without suffering a nervous breakdown.

Moral impossibility means circumstances where observance of the law would require heroism beyond the call of duty, that i.e., extreme inconvenience, or action that is extraordinarily burdonsome. The moral order is responsible to the natural law judged by conscience.

 

[Elijahmaria]

That doesn’t say that we should be participating in non-Catholic services.

Pardon me for a contradiction here: When I attend an Orthodox liturgy, and that is with religious regularity when possible, I am not attending a non-Catholic liturgy. I am attending a Catholic liturgy in the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

M.

 

[Vico]

The Orthodox churches are catholic but not in full communion with the Catholic churches. Hierarchical communion between the bishops is lacking between the two groups, therefore the Church of Christ is wounded.

How long it has been since the Twelve Apostles baptized “about three thousand souls” after hearing Peter’s discourse on Pentecost (Acts 2, 14-41).

 

[L_piperatus]

What good will it do the soul of the OPs friend if he supports her in her anger?

Look at what she is angry about…take a good look and tell me if that is justifiable?

Does it ever do a soul good to move in anger?

I still say he needs to step back and allow her to explore on her own. Or to counsel her against her negative thoughts and anger. Once that anger is released it is better for all concerned to accompany her where she would like to go.

Issues of authority already plague our respective Churches. Why encourage more discordant souls?

Yes, I think her attitude right now reflects a rebellion against authority, and that’s not a helpful attitude, regardless of whether she ultimately chooses to become Orthodox or stay Catholic. Both the EOC and the CC expect us to obey our authoritative teachers the bishops and the priests. Let’s look at her causes of anger one by one, based on DL82’s post:

“…is very angry with the Church over its stance on birth control, over the judgmental attitudes of people in her parish, and over past abuse by a priest. I can see how she has been hurt so badly that going to Mass in a Latin Rite Catholic Church would not be possible or beneficial right now.”

Regarding ARTIFICIAL birth control (I assume you mean ABC - artificial methods as opposed to periodic or total abstinence), that may work out for her but not necessarily. If she believes in obedience to a spiritual director, if she is ready to obey a priest regardless of whether permission to use ABC is granted or withheld, she will be OK with the Orthodox Church. But if she believes that she as a layperson can do whatever she wants and decide whether to use ABC and sterilization without first asking for and obtaining her Orthodox priest/spiritual director’s permission, then this lady and the EOC are a bad match for each other.

I also think DL82 could help her by engaging her on a discussion regarding her beliefs on ABC. What exactly does she believe and why? Does she believe in total freedom to use ABC, left up to the individual to decide on his/her own, or does she believe in the individual obeying the guidance of a priest/spiritual director on this? How did she arrive to her beliefs? Has she studied the Bible, the writings of the Early Church Fathers, and the 2000-year history of Christianity regarding contraception? Does she know that all Christians, including the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and mainline Protestants (followers of Luther, Calvin; the Church of England) universally condemned ABC before 1930, for nineteen centuries in a row? Does she know that acceptance of ABC is an innovation started with the Church of England in 1930, and gradually adopted by Eastern Orthodoxy after the 1960s?

Regarding judgemental attitudes by other parishioners, and abuse by priests, I think all Churches and denominations have their problems, including the Orthodox and Protestants. No EO Church or any other Christian body can give her a guarantee that she won’t encounter judgemental attitudes by other parishioners and abuse by priests/pastors in their particular Church or denomination.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That doesn’t say that we should be participating in non-Catholic services.

No it doesn’t. I says we can go to Orthodox services. Other non-Catholics are not addressed by Orientale Lumen.

 

[Elijahmaria]

Thank you L piperatus!

As a non-Orthodox I could not do anything but point and hope!!..

Thank you.

Yes, I think her attitude right now reflects a rebellion against authority, and that’s not a helpful attitude, regardless of whether she ultimately chooses to become Orthodox or stay Catholic. Both the EOC and the CC expect us to obey our authoritative teachers the bishops and the priests. Let’s look at her causes of anger one by one, based on DL82’s post:

“…is very angry with the Church over its stance on birth control, over the judgmental attitudes of people in her parish, and over past abuse by a priest. I can see how she has been hurt so badly that going to Mass in a Latin Rite Catholic Church would not be possible or beneficial right now.”

Regarding ARTIFICIAL birth control (I assume you mean ABC - artificial methods as opposed to periodic or total abstinence), that may work out for her but not necessarily. If she believes in obedience to a spiritual director, if she is ready to obey a priest regardless of whether permission to use ABC is granted or withheld, she will be OK with the Orthodox Church. But if she believes that she as a layperson can do whatever she wants and decide whether to use ABC and sterilization without first asking for and obtaining her Orthodox priest/spiritual director’s permission, then this lady and the EOC are a bad match for each other.

I also think DL82 could help her by engaging her on a discussion regarding her beliefs on ABC. What exactly does she believe and why? Does she believe in total freedom to use ABC, left up to the individual to decide on his/her own, or does she believe in the individual obeying the guidance of a priest/spiritual director on this? How did she arrive to her beliefs? Has she studied the Bible, the writings of the Early Church Fathers, and the 2000-year history of Christianity regarding contraception? Does she know that all Christians, including the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and mainline Protestants (followers of Luther, Calvin; the Church of England) universally condemned ABC before 1930, for nineteen centuries in a row? Does she know that acceptance of ABC is an innovation started with the Church of England in 1930, and gradually adopted by Eastern Orthodoxy after the 1960s?

Regarding judgemental attitudes by other parishioners, and abuse by priests, I think all Churches and denominations have their problems, including the Orthodox and Protestants. No EO Church or any other Christian body can give her a guarantee that she won’t encounter judgemental attitudes by other parishioners and abuse by priests/pastors in their particular Church or denomination.

 

[mick321]

Yes, I think her attitude right now reflects a rebellion against authority, and that’s not a helpful attitude, regardless of whether she ultimately chooses to become Orthodox or stay Catholic. Both the EOC and the CC expect us to obey our authoritative teachers the bishops and the priests. Let’s look at her causes of anger one by one, based on DL82’s post:

“…is very angry with the Church over its stance on birth control, over the judgmental attitudes of people in her parish, and over past abuse by a priest. I can see how she has been hurt so badly that going to Mass in a Latin Rite Catholic Church would not be possible or beneficial right now.”

Regarding ARTIFICIAL birth control (I assume you mean ABC - artificial methods as opposed to periodic or total abstinence), that may work out for her but not necessarily. If she believes in obedience to a spiritual director, if she is ready to obey a priest regardless of whether permission to use ABC is granted or withheld, she will be OK with the Orthodox Church. But if she believes that she as a layperson can do whatever she wants and decide whether to use ABC and sterilization without first asking for and obtaining her Orthodox priest/spiritual director’s permission, then this lady and the EOC are a bad match for each other.

I also think DL82 could help her by engaging her on a discussion regarding her beliefs on ABC. What exactly does she believe and why? Does she believe in total freedom to use ABC, left up to the individual to decide on his/her own, or does she believe in the individual obeying the guidance of a priest/spiritual director on this? How did she arrive to her beliefs? Has she studied the Bible, the writings of the Early Church Fathers, and the 2000-year history of Christianity regarding contraception? Does she know that all Christians, including the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and mainline Protestants (followers of Luther, Calvin; the Church of England) universally condemned ABC before 1930, for nineteen centuries in a row? Does she know that acceptance of ABC is an innovation started with the Church of England in 1930, and gradually adopted by Eastern Orthodoxy after the 1960s?

Regarding judgemental attitudes by other parishioners, and abuse by priests, I think all Churches and denominations have their problems, including the Orthodox and Protestants. No EO Church or any other Christian body can give her a guarantee that she won’t encounter judgemental attitudes by other parishioners and abuse by priests/pastors in their particular Church or denomination.

Under the circumstances, I think this approach would be counterproductive. His friend’s knowledge of the CC comes from first-hand experience. She had cause to leave, and left. As such, she’s beyond the point of being retrieved with the same old arguments.

No one should be argued into the Church. To conceal or discount genuine shortcomings in an effort to recruit and/or retain membership is dishonest, unholy and a sure way to make enemies. Protestantism was invented as a result of these methods.

His friend needs the Sacraments, and she needs them sooner rather than later. The fact that she’s considering Orthodoxy indicates that she is well aware of that need. That she has taken the first step - on her own - is encouraging and should be supported.

Should I offer to accompany my friend to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy and encourage further exploration of the Orthodox faith?

To the OP, I say yes, he should accompany his friend to the Divine Liturgy and encourage further exploration of the Christian Faith. Introduce yourselves to the pastor. Over time, he will discern her motives and determine if she is a good fit for Orthodoxy. At this point, there is no downside.

 

[Vico]

That doesn’t say that we should be participating in non-Catholic services.

The Vatican has addressed these issues:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/general-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930325_directory_en.html

Prayer in Common

1. Where appropriate, Catholics should be encouraged, in accordance with the Church’s norms, to join in prayer with Christians of other Churches and ecclesial Communities. Such prayers in common are certainly a very effective means of petitioning for the grace of unity, and they are a genuine expression of the ties which still bind Catholics to these other Christians. [119] Shared prayer is in itself a way to spiritual reconciliation.
   …
   111 d) When services are arranged between Catholics and those of an Eastern Church, particular attention should be given to the liturgical discipline of each Church, in accordance with n. 115 below.
   …
2. Since the celebration of the Eucharist on the Lord’s Day is the foundation and centre of the whole liturgical year, [120] Catholics—but those of Eastern Churches according to their own Law [121]—are obliged to attend Mass on that day and on days of precept. [122] It is not advisable therefore to organize ecumenical services on Sundays, and it must be remembered that even when Catholics participate in ecumenical services or in services of other Churches and ecclesial Communities, the obligation of participating at Mass on these days remains.

Sharing in Non-Sacramental Liturgical Worship

1. By liturgical worship is meant worship carried out according to books, prescriptions and customs of a Church or ecclesial Community, presided over by a minister or delegate of that Church or Community. This liturgical worship may be of a non-sacramental kind, or may be the celebration of one or more of the Christian sacraments. The concern here is non-sacramental worship.

…

1. In liturgical celebrations taking place in other Churches and ecclesial Communities, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.

 

[EvelynEVF]

There are lots of things we are wise to ask our pastors about, and I would encourage the OP to do so here. My pastor just about fell over when I asked him for permission to visit a particular protestant/emerging group in my town so that I could gain first-hand knowledge. I’ve also asked his permission appropriately in a couple other pretty serious issues, and it has helped create a really good relationship between us. Priests seem to like it when people take their authority seriously and he has good insight on things that I might not have expected.

It’s also very good for me to know exactly where the buck stops. When I’m uncertain, I know that God will express His will through my spiritual father and I can trust that and stop worrying. Takes some of the responsibility of my shoulders.

All that to say, go ahead and ask, because something really great may come of it.

 

[5Loaves]

1. In liturgical celebrations taking place in** other Churches and ecclesial Communities**, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.

“Other Churches” being Eastern Churches with valid apostolic succession which are not in communion with the Catholic Church. “Ecclesial Communities”= protestants, Christians lacking apostolic succession

 

[Rdunbar123]

Correct.

our Priest in our western rite(Antiochian) parish always tells us to treasure our previous church( mine was Roman Catholic) because the previous church planted the seed that lead them to Orthodoxy. I have never heard from the priest (ex Episcopalian) or Deacon(ex Roman Catholic) any negatives. In fact if anyone hints at dislike for another church they are corrected quickly. You cant build yourself up by tearing others down. If you leave a church because you are mad that is the wrong reason IMO.

 

[Mickey]

our Priest in our western rite(Antiochian) parish always tells us to treasure our previous church( mine was Roman Catholic) because the previous church planted the seed that lead them to Orthodoxy.

Amen.

 

[Moe21014]

Speaking of Apostasy, Angelo Roncall1 (Antti-Pope John XXIII) and Montini (Anti-Pope PaulV-Homosexual) mare guilty of this and Heresy due tio Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Episcipalian serice.

 

[RyanBlack]

Speaking of Apostasy, Angelo Roncall1 (Antti-Pope John XXIII) and Montini (Anti-Pope PaulV-Homosexual) mare guilty of this and Heresy due tio Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Episcipalian serice.

This sort of language is going to get you banned.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

You cant build yourself up by tearing others down.

Amen!

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

I helped my daughter find Christ in the Roman Catholic church. I encouraged her, gave her my Bible (NAB) and although I did not accompany her to Mass I did offer and encouraged her in every way.

This past year she got married in the RC and on my daughter’s invitation I led the Prayer of the Faithful, including the prayer for the Pope. I met her priest (a very nice young man) and her deacon.

The rest is up to her. Of course, I pray for all of my children.

When I was a young man I was told ‘any move in the right direction is a good move’ and that is how I see it.

Good for you, Hesychios, buddy. I would prefer you be an Eastern Catholic, at least, of course-----but your attitude and story speak v olumes. Awesome, dude.