According to Catholicism, can G-d foresee all possibilities and potentialities of things that do not actually exist or happen?

[Iron_Donkey]

It’s been claimed elsewhere here that God can’t do that which is logically impossible, since logic emanates from the existence of God - so, God can’t make a triangular circle.

Logically, how can God know the possibilities and potentialities of something that does not exist?

Sarah x

Because knowing what would happen in other conditions isn’t impossible.

Even I can do it: If an elephant comes into existence and materializes directly over my head, and there is no intervention, then it will squash me to death.

 

[dshix]

It’s been claimed elsewhere here that God can’t do that which is logically impossible, since logic emanates from the existence of God - so, God can’t make a triangular circle.

Logically, how can God know the possibilities and potentialities of something that does not exist?

Sarah x

God cannot contradict Himself. That would be an infinitely unsolvable paradox. He just doesn’t contradict Himself.

Therefore, do make a triangular circle, or a hexagon with four sides is impossible to God, because since he has created “triangle” to mean one thing and “circle” to mean another, He can’t make a triangular circle because they would contradict Himself.

However, He can know all things that will be and could be because he is all-knowing and infinite, so he can perfectly see all the possibilities to any given situation. This does not contradict logic, and if it does please show me how it does.

 

[ffg]

It’s been claimed elsewhere here that God can’t do that which is logically impossible, since logic emanates from the existence of God - so, God can’t make a triangular circle.

Logically, how can God know the possibilities and potentialities of something that does not exist?

Sarah x

I wonder if that would look like ▲.

Logically, God can know because He is ‘all knowing’ - it comes with the territory as God.

Logically, if there is one true God, Alpha and Omega (beginning and end), then time (caught in the middle of beginning and end) is a subject he created where those possibilities and potentialities would not exist, if not for time.

Do you know what is in the balloon when you blow it up? You also know what is not in the balloon, everything else.

God knows what’s in time and what is not in time.

 

[Tyrion]

Yes. It may seem bizarre, but God is capable of knowing all these things, and he does, because He is absolutely infinite. Infinity has no limits whatsoever, so it is not inconceivable that he knows all things that could ever be.

The word “bizarre” is an understatement… “totally absurd” or “sheer lunacy” would be more precise.

No matter how “infinite” God is supposed to be, I can PROVE that there are hypotheticals which God cannot know. The assumption is that God “knows” any and ALL hypotheticals.

Suppose that I sit at a table, with a whole bunch of dice of many colors. Suppose that I am going to pick up some dice, and roll them… according to the “all knowing” hypothesis God knows in advance, which dice I will pick, how many of them, and what will be the result of the roll… That is a hypothetical, and let’s assume that God CAN know the result in advance.

But… there are OTHER hypothetical situations, and one of them is that God “reveals” his prediction to me. He tells me exactly which dice I am going to pick, exactly when I am going to make the roll, and what the results will be… This is another valid hypothetical situation, and according to the hypothesis, God can “know” the result…

Of course, God cannot make an accurate prediction. Can any one of you figure out the solution? If not, I will gladly provide it.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

This question was prompted by a comment made on the recent thread discussing the existence of Limbo. Is there the belief according to Catholic teaching that G-d can foresee the life of a person had that person not died? Is there anything to foresee? This can be extended to the larger issue of “possible” universes. IOW, is G-d omniscient regarding all possibilities and potentialities that do not actually exist or happen?

Why would He want to bother?

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

The word “bizarre” is an understatement… “totally absurd” or “sheer lunacy” would be more precise.

It would be absurd only to those who do not know the philosophic definitions of Divine Knowledge.

No matter how “infinite” God is supposed to be, I can PROVE that there are hypotheticals which God cannot know. The assumption is that God “knows” any and ALL hypotheticals.

Yes, that is the case. With Perfect Knowledge of everything, God does indeed know every hypothetical outcome, no matter how absurd you try to make it, as well as the factual outcomes that do indeed occur.

Suppose that I sit at a table, with a whole bunch of dice of many colors. Suppose that I am going to pick up some dice, and roll them… according to the “all knowing” hypothesis God knows in advance, which dice I will pick, how many of them, and what will be the result of the roll… That is a hypothetical, and let’s assume that God CAN know the result in advance.

God does not know “in advance” because that assume a temporal entity and God is not temporal. God just knows.

But… there are OTHER hypothetical situations, and one of them is that God “reveals” his prediction to me. He tells me exactly which dice I am going to pick, exactly when I am going to make the roll, and what the results will be… This is another valid hypothetical situation, and according to the hypothesis, God can “know” the result…

Right, God knows all the possible conditions of the set up.

Of course, God cannot make an accurate prediction. Can any one of you figure out the solution? If not, I will gladly provide it.

This does not follow. God possesses Perfect Knowledge; that is, He knows all the possible and actual outcomes. Since he knows both hypothetical and factual outcomes, He definitely would be able to make the “accurate” prediction.
Thus, the “solution” is that you have not grasped what Divine Knowledge is. I suggest starting by looking at the link I provided in Post #2 and digesting the material within.

 

[Tyrion]

This does not follow. God possesses Perfect Knowledge; that is, He knows all the possible and actual outcomes. Since he knows both hypothetical and factual outcomes, He definitely would be able to make the “accurate” prediction.

You don’t get it. For ME the next toss is in the future. Supposedly God “knows” the “actual” outcome. He reveals MY future to me. Then… I will use that extra information, and will NOT do what he says. As such I can invalidate God’s “revealed knowledge”. But, supposedly poor God is not capable of lying… We are playing a who-can-outsmart-whom type of game here. And since I am at the end of this “guessing game”, no matter what God says that “I WILL DO”, I can simply do something else… since I supposedly have “free will”. Capisci?

 

[atheistgirl]

I wonder if that would look like ▲.

Well, no, that’s just a triangle.

Logically, God can know because He is ‘all knowing’ - it comes with the territory as God.

God knows what’s in time and what is not in time.

So it’s your contention that God already knows the fate and ultimate destination of somebody He has not even created yet, a person who’s soul does not even exist.

So God would know this person (in this case) will suffer emotional, physical and sexual abuse while on earth, contract some horrible disease, be born in an area of the world that worships false Gods and will end up in Hell.

And yet He still creates this person

Sarah x

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

You don’t get it. For ME the next toss is in the future. Supposedly God “knows” the “actual” outcome. He reveals MY future to me. Then… I will use that extra information, and will NOT do what he says. As such I can invalidate God’s “revealed knowledge”. But, supposedly poor God is not capable of lying… We are playing a who-can-outsmart-whom type of game here. And since I am at the end of this “guessing game”, no matter what God says that “I WILL DO”, I can simply do something else… since I supposedly have “free will”. Capisci?

Are you sure that, if God reveals your future to you, that you can change it? This is something that has been discussed quite a lot by pretty much everyone. There is no sure thing about the actual result, but I would never bet against God Himself.

 

[dshix]

The word “bizarre” is an understatement… “totally absurd” or “sheer lunacy” would be more precise.

No matter how “infinite” God is supposed to be, I can PROVE that there are hypotheticals which God cannot know. The assumption is that God “knows” any and ALL hypotheticals.

Suppose that I sit at a table, with a whole bunch of dice of many colors. Suppose that I am going to pick up some dice, and roll them… according to the “all knowing” hypothesis God knows in advance, which dice I will pick, how many of them, and what will be the result of the roll… That is a hypothetical, and let’s assume that God CAN know the result in advance.

But… there are OTHER hypothetical situations, and one of them is that God “reveals” his prediction to me. He tells me exactly which dice I am going to pick, exactly when I am going to make the roll, and what the results will be… This is another valid hypothetical situation, and according to the hypothesis, God can “know” the result…

Of course, God cannot make an accurate prediction. Can any one of you figure out the solution? If not, I will gladly provide it.

LOL, you are so absurd.

I’m always amused when people try to make mind games in which they attempt to outsmart God, ignoring the fact that God is not a being to be toyed with.

To suggest that God would “play along” with your little game is stupid. For the sake of the discussion, however, I will go along with what you are saying. In this hypothetical situation you have created (which never would, never could, occur) God would know that you want to prove Him wrong by using His prediction of the future to contradict Him, so He would either just not tell you, or would end up telling you the entire outcome. Because no matter how many times you intentionally contradict His prediction, He knows how many times you would do it an what dice would finally be rolled, so what you have created for yourself is a paradox. If God can see infinitely into the future, and you can contradict Him infinite times, he would know what you intend to do and therefore just not tell you.

As a matter of fact, that’s why God never reveals the future of a particular action by a particular individual, unless it’s vague enough that that person can’t know it.

Now that I’ve commenced making a block of text that probably didn’t make any sense, nor was it relevant to any topic whatsoever, I will say this:

By attempting to play with God in any way, shape or form, you are showing arrogance to a very high degree. I would suggest not trying it, because there’s nothing to win and your eternal soul to lose.

 

[Neildown]

So it’s your contention that God already knows the fate and ultimate destination of somebody He has not even created yet, a person who’s soul does not even exist.

I think one has to look at this from the perspective of God as opposed to the perspective of someone who is stuck in time under God. Assuming there is a God, we can assume He is or exists in a “higher reality” for lack of a better phrase. If God, being in this higher reality, makes a lesser reality (such as the physical, earthly experience) then it only makes sense that He can look at it in the same manner that we, in a 3-dimensional world look at a 2-dimensional map or schematic.

That being said, God can see from the beginning to the end of humanity’s entire earthly experience and can certainly account for it. Essentially, God has already created everyone - past, present, and future. The only technicality is that we see time like a road we’re walking on whereas God sees time like a line on paper. The concept is fairly deep, so if I’m not illustrating very well I apologize.

So God would know this person (in this case) will suffer emotional, physical and sexual abuse while on earth, contract some horrible disease, be born in an area of the world that worships false Gods and will end up in Hell.

God is not responsible for people who consciously choose to reject Him based on their own free will. People who have no opportunity to learn about Him or choose Him are likely a different story, however. As far as I’m aware, there isn’t any doctrine on that specific subject, so we’re kind of left to assume that however those persons are judged at the end of life is within all boundaries of both justice and mercy according to the circumstances. We believe in a God with a higher intelligence and sense of morality than ourselves, so obviously there’s no reason to assume that person will be judged unfairly. It has to be remembered, however, that half of the judgement is on us. Every human is given the choice to accept or reject God at judgement (after death), and that judgement is largely dependent upon the kind of individual that human has become - whether or not they will be willing to accept Him as much as He is willing to accept them.

And yet He still creates this person

Yes and no. While God is responsible for creating humanity and for creating the human soul in all of us, and can even see time itself from an objective viewpoint, God doesn’t predestine us to make our decisions. More accurately, I believe, He works through the decisions He already knows we will make based on our free will. I suspect that even many of His punishments in the OT may have been done through these means - for instance, when God said in Isaiah that He would punish Israel via the Assyrian armies. Though He gave us free will, we are the ones that exercise it.

 

[atheistgirl]

Yes and no.

Well, either God knows the ultimate end of a human and her soul He has not yet created, or He doesn’t

If as is being claimed here He does, then I have to ask why create a creature He knows is going to end up in Hell

I understand the free will argument and the stuff around predestination, so I’m not saying God predestined her to go to Hell - the point is, and the claim is, before she existed, before He created her soul, He already knew she would, for whatever reason, end up in Hell.

So I have to ask, what was the point, since the creation of this particular girl’s soul will result in another soul languishing in the horrors of Hell for all eternity

Unless of course, God didn’t know, and couldn’t know, because of our free will, but that would mean God isn’t all knowing

Sarah x

 

[zro_x]

Well, either God knows the ultimate end of a human and her soul He has not yet created, or He doesn’t

If as is being claimed here He does, then I have to ask why create a creature He knows is going to end up in Hell

I understand the free will argument and the stuff around predestination, so I’m not saying God predestined her to go to Hell - the point is, and the claim is, before she existed, before He created her soul, He already knew she would, for whatever reason, end up in Hell.

So I have to ask, what was the point, since the creation of this particular girl’s soul will result in another soul languishing in the horrors of Hell for all eternity

Unless of course, God didn’t know, and couldn’t know, because of our free will, but that would mean God isn’t all knowing

Sarah x

There are two reasons that I can think of for why God might might initiate the existence of people he knows will eventually reject him:

1. For those particular people, existence in hell is better than non-existence, or
2. By initiating the existence of those people, God may actually gain more souls.

The real answer is probably a mixture of both.

 

[dshix]

The key here is that God does not hold back in creating a soul just because he knows they will fall. He creates all humans with a chance at salvation, and whether they accept or reject Him does not change whether they are created at all in the first place. To not create a person because He foresees that they will fall would be to restrict our free will.

 

[Tyrion]

Are you sure that, if God reveals your future to you, that you can change it?

Why not? It is also “assumed” that God does not limit our free will. And since I am free, I definitely would act contrarian just to PROVE you wrong.

This is something that has been discussed quite a lot by pretty much everyone. There is no sure thing about the actual result, but I would never bet against God Himself.

You are totally mistaken here. I am NOT betting against God, I am betting against the empty speculation you guys present as an accurate picture of God. In other words, I am betting against YOU… because, let’s face it, you have NO evidence for your assertions. You cannot even prove that God exists, much less what the attributes of God might be.

The point is that this little thought experiment proves that whatever “omniscience” might be, it cannot entail knowing something that does not exist. After all omniscience is supposed to know not only the potentials, but also the actual outcome. And actual outcome cannot occur unless the event really occurs. This is so obvious, that it cannot be denied. As my little question concerning the color of the nonexistent ball on top of the hypothetical desk where I do not work… the possible colors are infinite… but there is not (and cannot be) an ACTUAL color… since it does not exist. Is this not obvious?

 

[atheistgirl]

1. For those particular people, existence in hell is better than non-existence,

That’s interesting.

So, depending on your image of hell, it’s better that God creates a person He already knows is going to go to Hell, where they will suffer unimaginable, unending torture (as described by some of the Saints who had visions of Hell) or they will exist for all eternity without God, thus suffering the spiritual deprivation of the soul not being rejoined with it’s maker, rather than God simply not create this person.

I do not see that as any kind of loving action by an all knowing, all loving Father figure.

1. By initiating the existence of those people, God may actually gain more souls.

Meaning God creates a soul He already knows is damned to an eternity of torture, just so some other soul might be saved

Again, not the actions of any loving Being I can think of

Of course, it would be different if God didn’t actually know, and based on our free will choices, will judge us accordingly at the end of our life.

But then He’s not an all knowing God

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

The key here is that God does not hold back in creating a soul just because he knows they will fall.

Why not?

What’s the point of creating a soul that will simply end up being tortured forever?

To not create a person because He foresees that they will fall would be to restrict our free will.

Something that doesn’t yet exist, doesn’t have free will to be restricted.

Sarah x

 

[dshix]

Why not?

What’s the point of creating a soul that will simply end up being tortured forever?

To complete the fullness of creation.

Something that doesn’t yet exist, doesn’t have free will to be restricted.

Sarah x

Well, if you accept the answer to your first question, then this question is moot.

 

[atheistgirl]

To complete the fullness of creation.

So you’re saying it’s part of God’s plan for the fullness of creation, to create souls He already knows are going to end up in Hell for all eternity.

Which gives the lie to the claim God wants us all in heaven when He deliberately creates souls He knows ahead of time, before they even existed, they’re going to Hell.

Some people have to suffer an eternity of torment just so God can complete His fullness of creation.

To me, it’s just cruelty on those souls, souls damned to hell before they were even created.

And your saying the God I would have to believe in deliberately creates such souls

Not for me thanks.

I don’t want any part of that kind of thinking.

Sarah x

 

[dshix]

So you’re saying it’s part of God’s plan for the fullness of creation, to create souls He already knows are going to end up in Hell for all eternity.

Heh, you twisted my words to mean something else. God is infinitely just, so he gives everyone a fair chance at salvation. Some succeed, some do not. To not create the ones whom He knows would not make it to Heaven would be defeating the purpose of giving all His creatures the test in the first place; He would say “Ok, go ahead and try to make it to Heaven” to a group of people that cannot fail because He has already removed all the one who would.

Which gives the lie to the claim God wants us all in heaven when He deliberately creates souls He knows ahead of time, before they even existed, they’re going to Hell.

God wants us all to choose to love Him. He will not make us love Him, nor will he brainwash us so we are incapable of not loving Him. He gives us this choice.

Some people have to suffer an eternity of torment just so God can complete His fullness of creation.

To me, it’s just cruelty on those souls, souls damned to hell before they were even created.

And your saying the God I would have to believe in deliberately creates such souls

Not for me thanks.

I don’t want any part of that kind of thinking.

Sarah x

You can believe that is cruel if you wish, but it is only just. God is infinitely just; He damns souls to hell when they merit it.