According to Catholicism, can G-d foresee all possibilities and potentialities of things that do not actually exist or happen?

[Love4All]

I never said hell was life, but I never said you couldn’t be alive in hell either. You said hell is a place where they wish they could not exist and where life is non-existent (ie. “death”) but how can you wish not to be alive if you aren’t alive to make that wish in the first place?

This essay I wrote awhile back might clarify my position a bit.

In hell they are spiritually dead, which is the worst kind of death there can be.

 

[Love4All]

Oh, I agree that hell is pretty bad. But the question is, is it worse than non-existence? Saint faustina says nothing about that here, and even if she had, the testemonies of the saints, while greatly respected, are not official church teaching.

First of all, it seems to me that the canonization of a writer is the Church’s official stamp of approval on the means they themselves employed to get to heaven. Canonization is the Church’s declaration that, “this way, works.” So to believe the things that Sister Faustina reported is to believe what she herself believed, and thus, would lead one to heaven, as a contributing factor.

Secondly, did you read her description? Does it seem to you that it would be better to endure these tortures, forever, with no possibility of release, or not to exist? I think it is obvious. If you disagree, I can’t imagine how that is possible. Isn’t that more or less the point of the threat of damnation in the first place, that you should never, ever want to go there no matter what?

But if God threatens a soul with that, and the soul goes on ahead and does whatever it likes anyway, including sins that will condemn it, then how is God justified if He does not carry out His threat?

Think of it this way: what does God have, that anyone could want to be around Him in the first place? He is Love. All He has is Love. Love is the reward of those who choose love. As to those who reject love, what more fitting punishment can there be but to be without love? Heaven is all love. Hell is for those who could never be happy in heaven.

 

[dshix]

First of all, it seems to me that the canonization of a writer is the Church’s official stamp of approval on the means they themselves employed to get to heaven. Canonization is the Church’s declaration that, “this way, works.” So to believe the things that Sister Faustina reported is to believe what she herself believed, and thus, would lead one to heaven, as a contributing factor.

Secondly, did you read her description? Does it seem to you that it would be better to endure these tortures, forever, with no possibility of release, or not to exist? I think it is obvious. If you disagree, I can’t imagine how that is possible. Isn’t that more or less the point of the threat of damnation in the first place, that you should never, ever want to go there no matter what?

But if God threatens a soul with that, and the soul goes on ahead and does whatever it likes anyway, including sins that will condemn it, then how is God justified if He does not carry out His threat?

Think of it this way: what does God have, that anyone could want to be around Him in the first place? He is Love. All He has is Love. Love is the reward of those who choose love. As to those who reject love, what more fitting punishment can there be but to be without love? Heaven is all love. Hell is for those who could never be happy in heaven.

Agreed.

Besides, Jesus said of Judas that it “would have been better for him had he never been born” when he was going to betray Jesus. Jesus essentially said it would have been better for him not to exist rather than go to Hell.

 

[Love4All]

couple of things here:

your view:
“God knew that Judas would not repent, and he created Judas anyway.”
my view:
God knows what choices we will make before He creates us because He sits outside of time
He exists before He creates us; He exists after He creates us.
If He does not create us, how can He, outside of time, know anything about us? We have not and will not have been created. We do not exist if He does not create us; there is nothing to know; no choices will have been made to know about. He has to create Judas in order to know before He creates Him that he will sin.

God’s purpose is not to create someone who He knows will sin, but to have a creature who can choose to do good. He sees a completed picture of a creation whose constituents, in part, through a reliquishing of His omnipotence to their free will, have created themselves and their own destiny - the picture that I imagine is infinitely beautiful and good.

God knows everything including the free will decisions that would have been carried out, if they had existed, of creatures who did not in fact ever exist!

 

[Love4All]

It would have to mean that God created the souls he knew would go to hell because he could love souls in hell more than he could if they had never existed. if that’s what you mean, I’m willing to give the idea some consideration…

No, not what I mean. God does not love the souls in hell. There is nothing in them that could be loved.

I’m not sure if the church explicitly uses the words “punish” and “reward”.

Really? I’m sure she does. Many places. Look it up. Do you really not believe heaven is reward and hell is punishment without seeing the words explicitly? What are words, if not carriers of concepts? Can you possibly define reward and punishment in some way as to make heaven not a reward and hell not a punishment?

 

[Aloysium]

God knows everything including the free will decisions that would have been carried out, if they had existed, of creatures who did not in fact ever exist!

i am not sure what this means since there is an infinite number of creatures that could have exited and choices they could have made under conditions that never existed . . . my brain just crashed

do you have a reference for this “decisions that would have been carried out, if they had existed, of creatures who did not in fact ever exist”

i don’t want to argue the point; i want to learn more

 

[Love4All]

i am not sure what this means since there is an infinite number of creatures that could have exited and choices they could have made under conditions that never existed . . . my brain just crashed

do you have a reference for this “decisions that would have been carried out, if they had existed, of creatures who did not in fact ever exist”

i don’t want to argue the point; i want to learn more

newadvent.org/summa/1014.htm#article9

It may perhaps help a bit to recognize that God has Actually Infinite knowledge. That is indeed incomprehensible to us, but it is what the Church teaches. One’s brain would indeed crash, attempting to grasp the extent of actually infinite knowledge!

 

[Aloysium]

i will think more about the link you sumbitted.
i have read this several times before and i am not convinced that it supports your argument.

I have found in scripture, no mention of God’s knowing the decisions of creatures who do not exist:
<I just deleted some 20 quotes>

We are likely thinking about different things here:
When i speak of God’s omniscience, i am referring to my understanding of His Beatific Vision.
What i understand you as saying, is that things that do not, never have and never will exist are contained within that vision - this is absurd,

On the other hand it does not seem beyond belief or comprehension that He has the capacity to plan.
So that within eternity, He imagines things as they would occur and impact on the whole, if He actually created them.
Why an infinite being would want or need to, i don’t know; but it is possible.

 

[Love4All]

i will think more about the link you sumbitted.

When i speak of God’s omniscience, i am referring to my understanding of His Beatific Vision.
What i understand you as saying, is that things that do not, never have and never will exist are contained within that vision - this is absurd,

What are you signifying by the phrase, “His Beatific Vision?” The Beatific Vision, as I have always heard the term used, refers to the face-to-face vision of God beheld by the blessed in Heaven.

Are you perhaps referring to God’s Omniscience?

Anyway, Saint Thomas wrote,

"things which are not actual, are in the power either of God Himself or of a creature, whether in active power, or passive; whether in power of thought or of imagination, or of any other manner of meaning whatsoever. Whatever therefore can be made, or thought, or said by the creature, as also whatever He Himself can do, all are known to God, although they are not actual. And in so far it can be said that He has knowledge even of things that are not. "

Since God is omnipotent, then if He knows all the things that are in His power to make, He knows many, many things that are not actual. All of those things are contained in His omniscience. I’m not sure what to say about them being in His “Vision,” but if it strikes you as absurd, perhaps you are not thinking about it correctly.

 

[mrajax]

I]

That being said, God knows what choices we will make before we make them, and even before he creates us. God knew that Judas would not repent, and he created Judas anyway. There is only so much God can do to convert people. Because of our free will, some people reject him anyway. Some people do choose to reject God. Some people do go to hell. And God knows what choices we will make. Why wouldn’t God, being merciful, stop us from making those evil choices by not creating us? Do you mean to tell me that the very ability to act freely alone is enough to warrant our creation? I find that idea highly suspect. Yes, we have the opportunity to go to heaven, but that doesn’t count for anything. What matters is whether or not we do go to heaven. Similarly, we have the chance to do good in this life, but what matters is whether or not we actually do good, and God knows this. and as I’ve already mentioned, I beleive a loving God does have good reason to create even those of us that go to hell, whether we know those reasons or not. I just offered my two reasons because they make some sense of the whole problem.

You answered your own question there: God loves us so much that even though He knows that we will sin against Him, he still created us in the hope that maybe we’ll change. He’s like the parents whose child is constantly rebelling against them, going out late at night and staying out days on end, does drugs, becomes a militant fanatical member of some cult etc… but despite what said child does, the parents are always waiting for him to repent. Thats what my Priest told me. We have free will and noone has the right to force us against our will; hell, God Himself imposed this rule upon Himself and that includes preventing our birth in order to not do ‘evil’.

We do have the opportunity to go to heaven but what is really preventing us from going there? What does prevent us from doing the simplest of good things? Things like a crisis in the faith and temptations aren’t enough to send you to hell; neither is falling into the occasional sin enough to make God want to murder you. What does send people to hell is obstinancy in sin of any kind.

 

[mrajax]

Athiestgirl was responding responding to one of my posts. I think that this may be the case. That’s my second reason for why God creates the souls that evetually end up in hell. Judas, apparently, was better off if he had never been born. but God created him, knowing that the would betray Jesus, because he knew Jesus needed to die for our sins I might also add that I do not think that Judas went to hell after he died. Rather I think his existence simply ended. It is my belief that a very small minority of people are created because, by their sins, they somehow bring other people to God.

What a load of rubbish to be frank. So if one of these sinners came up to God and Mary and begged them to change him, does that mean They’d reject him? Becuase according to your thesis, even if they did accept him, they’d only do so out of obligation and not love for sinners. Basically, these people are nothing but pawns in God’s plan of making the perfect ‘home’ with utterly perfect children. But God opened heaven and died for all without exception and not just the predestined, so the idea that some people are destined to be utterly rejected by God with no hope of ever recieving one single grace, and the idea that Judas had no soul and simply ceased to exist are both dumb beyond belief.

And really, this does sound like love. If a loving person has to choose between the happiness of one person and the happiness of two, he will choose the happiness of two. It just doesn’t sound very JUST… but in reality, it is. Remember that the person still has free will, and still chooses his own fate.

Saying that it is love is like saying bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a show of love for the American people. None of them are proud that thousands of Japanese civilians died to end the war but everyone is glad they’re at least alive. But if the saints and especially the Virgin Mary, the Mother of sinners, found out that just one soul was used to make them more saintly on purpose only for said soul to be unceremoniously thrown away, do you think they’d be happy?

But that isn’t the reason why God creates those people. He knows they will reject him, and so he knows this ultimate purpose for humanity will not be fulfilled by them.

Love4all, ask yourself: If it really is worse for people to be in hell than non-existent, then why doesn’t God just… let them go after they die? Wouldn’t that be the action of a truly loving God?

I already answered the question above. As for God and non-existence and hell, God sends souls to hell precisely to make them realize what they have lost. He and the Virgin Mary have been right in front of their eyes inviting them to calmly follow their path but instead they chose the road to hell.

 

[Aloysium]

What are you signifying by the phrase, “His Beatific Vision?” The Beatific Vision, as I have always heard the term used, refers to the face-to-face vision of God beheld by the blessed in Heaven.

Are you perhaps referring to God’s Omniscience?

Anyway, Saint Thomas wrote,

"things which are not actual, are in the power either of God Himself or of a creature, whether in active power, or passive; whether in power of thought or of imagination, or of any other manner of meaning whatsoever. Whatever therefore can be made, or thought, or said by the creature, as also whatever He Himself can do, all are known to God, although they are not actual. And in so far it can be said that He has knowledge even of things that are not. "

Since God is omnipotent, then if He knows all the things that are in His power to make, He knows many, many things that are not actual. All of those things are contained in His omniscience. I’m not sure what to say about them being in His “Vision,” but if it strikes you as absurd, perhaps you are not thinking about it correctly.

in contemplating the Reality of God, it is a bit easier if i try to understand Jesus:

“The knowledge and love of our Divine Redeemer, of which we were the object from the first moment of His Incarnation, exceed all the human intellect can hope to grasp. For hardly was He conceived in the womb of the Mother of God, when He began to enjoy the beatific vision, and in that vision all the members of His Mystical Body were continually and unceasingly present to Him, and He embraced them with His redeeming love.” (Pius XII, )

as to “things that are not”, i consider this to mean situations such as:
Matt 11: 21 'Alas for you, Chorazin! Alas for you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 Still, I tell you that it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on Judgement Day than for you.

at any rate my brain is tired, peace

 

[Neildown]

In hell they are spiritually dead, which is the worst kind of death there can be.

This response makes no sense - I never denied that spiritual death is the worst kind of death, nor did I hint towards that in any way.

 

[Love4All]

This response makes no sense - I never denied that spiritual death is the worst kind of death, nor did I hint towards that in any way.

You implied or stated that one must be alive to wish one did not exist. I was simply pointing out that the souls in hell are NOT alive, they are dead, and that in their death they wish they could go out of existence entirely, but they cannot. So they are wishing they could cease existing, without being alive in any sense. In an unrelated context, I was thinking of a good definition for life in general. We call that alive, that seeks its own good. Thus God is Living, and plants and animals are living, and angels and saints are living, and human beings on earth are alive — all these, seek their own good. But those in the Second Death, do not, they only seek their own destruction, which they can never have. They do not any more seek their own good or the good of any other.

If you have any image of “undead,” that would be a closer description of the souls in hell than “alive.” In mythology, the undead are considered as a subset of the dead, not the living.

 

[Love4All]

in contemplating the Reality of God, it is a bit easier if i try to understand Jesus:

“The knowledge and love of our Divine Redeemer, of which we were the object from the first moment of His Incarnation, exceed all the human intellect can hope to grasp. For hardly was He conceived in the womb of the Mother of God, when He began to enjoy the beatific vision, and in that vision all the members of His Mystical Body were continually and unceasingly present to Him, and He embraced them with His redeeming love.” (Pius XII, )

as to “things that are not”, i consider this to mean situations such as:
Matt 11: 21 'Alas for you, Chorazin! Alas for you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 Still, I tell you that it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on Judgement Day than for you.

at any rate my brain is tired, peace

Yes, that is an example of a counterfactual hypothetical known to God. I would submit that God in His omniscience knows all such counterfactual hypotheticals.

Peace!

 

[Love4All]

As for God and non-existence and hell, God sends souls to hell precisely to make them realize what they have lost. He and the Virgin Mary have been right in front of their eyes inviting them to calmly follow their path but instead they chose the road to hell.

This would seem to imply that there is at least one aspect of hell that is designed to instruct, and therefore improve the lot of, those who go there. According to what I have read, the pain of loss is one of the pains of hell. They clearly recognize what they have lost, and that they have lost it through their own free choice. But to say that God sends them there “precisely to make them realize” what they have lost would appear to imply that once they realize it clearly, God’s purpose in sending them to hell is fulfilled, and therefore they can leave. That isn’t the case, as far as I know. Hell isn’t correction, it is damnation. It is not constructive reparation, it is destructive punishment, fulfilling Justice but denying Mercy to those who after all rejected all Mercy.

 

[Neildown]

You implied or stated that one must be alive to wish one did not exist. I was simply pointing out that the souls in hell are NOT alive, they are dead, and that in their death they wish they could go out of existence entirely, but they cannot. So they are wishing they could cease existing, without being alive in any sense. In an unrelated context, I was thinking of a good definition for life in general. We call that alive, that seeks its own good. Thus God is Living, and plants and animals are living, and angels and saints are living, and human beings on earth are alive — all these, seek their own good. But those in the Second Death, do not, they only seek their own destruction, which they can never have. They do not any more seek their own good or the good of any other.

If you have any image of “undead,” that would be a closer description of the souls in hell than “alive.” In mythology, the undead are considered as a subset of the dead, not the living.

I think I see what you mean - though in context it’s not incompatible with what I professed in the first place.

Technically speaking, even a damned person is “alive”, in the base sense that that person is still consciously existent, and that was where our definitions didn’t match. Yes damned souls are “dead,” but not in the common definition (which I was using) of the word in which death includes and/or is associated with non-existence. In other words, I think we were just on the wrong page insofar as the context of our definitions.