According to Catholicism, can G-d foresee all possibilities and potentialities of things that do not actually exist or happen?

[Paddy_Walker]

This question was prompted by a comment made on the recent thread discussing the existence of Limbo. Is there the belief according to Catholic teaching that G-d can foresee the life of a person had that person not died? Is there anything to foresee? This can be extended to the larger issue of “possible” universes. IOW, is G-d omniscient regarding all possibilities and potentialities that do not actually exist or happen?

presumably He creates every individual for a purpose.

 

[Love4All]

because you think hell is worse than nonexistence. If I had to choose, I think I’d rather be in hell than non-existant.

I think you don’t know what you’re saying here. There is no enjoyment of existence in hell. They would rather not exist; they hate God and they hate themselves, they hate existence in general. They are in torment, with no relief, ever.

I recommend you read up a bit on what has been written by Saints about hell. Did not Jesus Himself say of Judas, “it would be better for that man had he never been born.”?

 

[Love4All]

I would rather never have existed, than to exist, and then go to a place of eternal torture (based on the testimony of the Saints who had visions of hell).

If God knows I’m going to Hell, and knew I was going to Hell before He created my soul, then it would have been a kindness for Him not to have created me.

It is a cruelty of indescribable magnitude, to deliberately create something you know before you even create it, is going to suffer for all eternity.

In my opinion.

It was a little joke as my CFO was on a split screen with me as I was typing

She’ll do whatever it takes - provided it’s moral, legal and ethically sound

Just like God - except He includes making souls He already knows are damned to Hell, if that will save a few others for Heaven.

Sarah x

Do you think that God creates certain souls He knows will be damned IN ORDER to bring others to heaven He knows will be saved? That doesn’t sound like Love to me.

Perhaps there is another reason God created those souls who will eventually be damned. Perhaps, He created them, to love them and to be loved by them for all eternity. That sounds more like Love to me.

Above you say, "It is a cruelty of indescribable magnitude, to deliberately create something you know before you even create it, is going to suffer for all eternity. "

You seem to be saying that God is indescribably cruel. But if God is Love, then that seems to imply that Love is indescribably cruel. Is that what you believe?

Or are you saying, rather, one of the following?

1. God can’t be Love, since Love would never create a being who would freely reject all love.
2. There cannot be a hell, since no being would ever consciously choose to reject all love.
3. There cannot be God, since it is impossible to reconcile a God who is Love with a world containing evil.

Or something else again? I look forward to your reply!

 

[Love4All]

Because life is so important and is a blessing in itself, hell cannot be regarded as a punishment as much as heaven is a reward, for the fact that even hell is progress in comparison with non-existence, even though damnation is essentially separation from God. So when a person is born into existence even hell is an improvement on nonexistence.

No, that is nothing at all like what the Church teaches. You seem to be confusing hell with “life.” There is no life in hell. Eternal life is heaven. Hell is the Lake of Fire, the Second Death. In hell, there is only death, forever. Non-existence is their wish in hell, which they can never have, and it adds to their torment.

 

[Love4All]

This question was prompted by a comment made on the recent thread discussing the existence of Limbo. Is there the belief according to Catholic teaching that G-d can foresee the life of a person had that person not died? Is there anything to foresee? This can be extended to the larger issue of “possible” universes. IOW, is G-d omniscient regarding all possibilities and potentialities that do not actually exist or happen?

God knows what would have happened had things proceeded differently than they did. There is nothing to “foresee” because to foresee implies the actual future course of the world, and what would have happened is not actual but hypothetical. God knows all hypotheticals as well as all actuals.

Yes, God is omniscient with regard to all knowledge, including knowledge regarding all possibilities and potentialities that do not actually exist or happen.

 

[zro_x]

God is not morally responsible for any soul being in hell. If He were, He would be a monster! Moral responsibility is incurred by free will decisions, and God doesn’t have what we lesser beings think of as free will. God doesn’t decide between good and evil when He acts. God loves, and accepts our love in return. If we reject love, that is not God’s fault, nor His responsibility.

If you tell Johnny there are cookies in the cookies jar and also tell him not to take any, you are not either directly or indirectly responsible for Johnny’s act of disobedience. That is all on him. You are responsible to punish him with whatever punishment you already warned him about before he stole the cookies. So while it is your responsibility to carry out your warning, it is Johnny’s fault, and not yours, that he forced your hand.

love4all, think for a minute about what love is. Love is the desire for good for someone else. Now ask yourself: if hell is so bad that even non-existence is a beter alternative, Could a God who knows that you will reject him be moraly justified to create you? Is free will good enough that God, who wants the best for us, expresses his love by creating souls he knows will reject him, all for the sake of free will?

I doubt it.

I don’t know for sure why God creates souls that he knows will reject him, but, as I’ve said, I do have two speculations.

 

[zro_x]

One of these speculations is that existence in hell is better than non-existence.

No, that is nothing at all like what the Church teaches.

Can you provide sources for this claim?

You seem to be confusing hell with “life.” There is no life in hell. Eternal life is heaven. Hell is the Lake of Fire, the Second Death. In hell, there is only death, forever.

Life comes in varying degrees. In heaven, we will be more alive than we are here. In hell, we will be less alive. but we will still have some minute level of life, because we are still loved, known, and held in existence by God.

Non-existence is their wish in hell, which they can never have, and it adds to their torment.

I think you don’t know what you’re saying here. There is no enjoyment of existence in hell. They would rather not exist; they hate God and they hate themselves, they hate existence in general. They are in torment, with no relief, ever.

I know that this is the common understanding, but I’m not so sure it is the case, especially in light of the reasoning I gave in my last post. Can you provide sources that this is anything other than your own understanding of how hell works?

I recommend you read up a bit on what has been written by Saints about hell.

Again, I know they claimed Hell was a horrible, terrifying place, but do they ever explicitly state that Non-existence is a better alternative? I know that C.S. Lewis at least hints at the possibility that that it is really the other way round.

Did not Jesus Himself say of Judas, “it would be better for that man had he never been born.”?

yes he did, which leads me to the second reason I can think of for why God might create those who reject him.

 

[zro_x]

Do you think that God creates certain souls He knows will be damned IN ORDER to bring others to heaven He knows will be saved? That doesn’t sound like Love to me.

Athiestgirl was responding responding to one of my posts. I think that this may be the case. That’s my second reason for why God creates the souls that evetually end up in hell. Judas, apparently, was better off if he had never been born. but God created him, knowing that the would betray Jesus, because he knew Jesus needed to die for our sins I might also add that I do not think that Judas went to hell after he died. Rather I think his existence simply ended. It is my belief that a very small minority of people are created because, by their sins, they somehow bring other people to God.

And really, this does sound like love. If a loving person has to choose between the happiness of one person and the happiness of two, he will choose the happiness of two. It just doesn’t sound very JUST… but in reality, it is. Remember that the person still has free will, and still chooses his own fate.

Perhaps there is another reason God created those souls who will eventually be damned. Perhaps, He created them, to love them and to be loved by them for all eternity. That sounds more like Love to me.

But that isn’t the reason why God creates those people. He knows they will reject him, and so he knows this ultimate purpose for humanity will not be fulfilled by them.

Love4all, ask yourself: If it really is worse for people to be in hell than non-existent, then why doesn’t God just… let them go after they die? Wouldn’t that be the action of a truly loving God?

 

[mrajax]

love4all, think for a minute about what love is. Love is the desire for good for someone else. Now ask yourself: if hell is so bad that even non-existence is a beter alternative, Could a God who knows that you will reject him be moraly justified to create you? Is free will good enough that God, who wants the best for us, expresses his love by creating souls he knows will reject him, all for the sake of free will?

I doubt it.

I don’t know for sure why God creates souls that he knows will reject him, but, as I’ve said, I do have two speculations.

If it was better that you would never have been born, doesn’t that mean you never would have had a chance to do an iota of good in the world? Nobody knows whether he is going to hell or not but everyone knows if their behaviour is going to lead them to hell or not. Stop thinking about whether God loves you or not and actually believe that He loves you because He created you for that purpose and that purpose alone. I myelf went through a period of huge depression thinking whether I was going to hell or not until the Blessed Virgin slapped me out of it and made me realize I was getting moody over nothing; she made me realize that God does not give a single damn on what I am going to be nor what I was; all He cares is what I am right now.

So take this inflated sense of victimhood and throw it into the fire where it belongs. If anyone here goes to hell because of this subject and blames God for it, I will point out to him that he rejected His mercy when it was right in front of him all the time. God knows what you are going to be but that doesn’t mean He wants you to be a sinner nor does it mean He can’t convert you. What, is it possible that God is bound by the future, forced to follow it’s exact routine. What a weak image of God, going against the fact that He is the master of everything.

And when Jesus said that it would have been better if Judas had never been born, He meant only figuratively; it’s better to not be born than to commit sin of the worst kind. But Jesus still chose Judas an His apostle and He still wanted him to do good and what do you know, Judas did do good; he performed miracles, forgave sins, stuff the apostles were supposed to do. He betrayed Jesus out of the hardness and evil in his heart. However, ask yourself this: if Judas instead of committing suicide like a coward went up to Jesus and His Mother on his knees and with the deepest humility asked for their forgiveness, do you think they would reject him? Imagine this: Jesus and Mary rejecting someone who sincerely repented of his sins. Jesus forgave even the Pharisees and the Jews after they crucified Him, why would He reject Judas? If anything, if Judas was only more dedicated to God, he’d be regarded as a saint and his betrayal would enver have happened.

 

[Neildown]

No, that is nothing at all like what the Church teaches. You seem to be confusing hell with “life.” There is no life in hell. Eternal life is heaven. Hell is the Lake of Fire, the Second Death. In hell, there is only death, forever. Non-existence is their wish in hell, which they can never have, and it adds to their torment.

I never said hell was life, but I never said you couldn’t be alive in hell either. You said hell is a place where they wish they could not exist and where life is non-existent (ie. “death”) but how can you wish not to be alive if you aren’t alive to make that wish in the first place?

This essay I wrote awhile back might clarify my position a bit.

1 - God created man in His own image. 2 - God gave man free will. These are the two most important fundamental beliefs concerning this particular subject. Because man is created in God’s image, man has a natural need to be like Him, but adversely we have tendencies which, left unchecked, draw us towards abusing that nature. Ultimately it is up to us, whether to choose to stick with our natural needs or our abuses of those needs; one will ultimately win out at the end. There is a problem however; one of these choices leaves us compatible with God, and the other leaves us incompatible with God. In the latter we have a paradox:
A human, made in the image and likeness of God, completely reliant upon God (who is the source of all life), possessing an immortal soul.
This same human, via his or her free will, wants nothing to do with God and/or wants to live without Him.
Though our natural need is to be with God, it has been established that we aren’t restricted in our choosing or rejecting Him. But choosing to live without God is akin to living without water - it’s nonsensical. We need God in order to live the way best suited for us, otherwise we become unbearably thirsty, our bodies fall into neglect, and our health begins to decay. Then there is another technicality; all humans have a soul which cannot be destroyed, unlike our mortal, physical bodies. Though a damned soul may cast itself away from the very source of life, it simply cannot “cease to exist” through doing so. It can’t be downgraded beyond anything less than a basic subsistence because it was made in the image and likeness of God, and a trait God shared with all of mankind is the gift of an eternal existence.
The soul of a damned person is still “alive,” but is casting itself into pure torment because it is struggling for all that isn’t of God and against everything that is of God. This is essentially why hell is not just a place of banishment but also a place of absolute misery, because all that is good and natural for us is stored with God. Everything bad is out in the wasteland, as far away from God as possible. With this in mind it becomes easy to conceive the accurate notion that hell is full of pain, suffering, and overall wretchedness.
Conversely, the soul of a person in heaven is alive in the fullest sense possible. It is in its natural environment where it was intended to be, and doing what it was created for - fulfilling it’s purpose. It has complete access to the wellspring it needs in order to be content and happy, and there is no conflict between the soul and God, but a flourishing communion between the two. Therefore heaven is a place of love and construction in comparison with hell, which is a place of hate and destruction. In summary, heaven and hell - at least for us, specifically - exist as an accommodation for the choices we may make with our free will.

 

[zro_x]

If it was better that you would never have been born, doesn’t that mean you never would have had a chance to do an iota of good in the world?
Nobody knows whether he is going to hell or not but everyone knows if their behaviour is going to lead them to hell or not. Stop thinking about whether God loves you or not and actually believe that He loves you because He created you for that purpose and that purpose alone. I myelf went through a period of huge depression thinking whether I was going to hell or not until the Blessed Virgin slapped me out of it and made me realize I was getting moody over nothing; she made me realize that God does not give a single damn on what I am going to be nor what I was; all He cares is what I am right now.

So take this inflated sense of victimhood and throw it into the fire where it belongs. If anyone here goes to hell because of this subject and blames God for it, I will point out to him that he rejected His mercy when it was right in front of him all the time. God knows what you are going to be but that doesn’t mean He wants you to be a sinner nor does it mean He can’t convert you. What, is it possible that God is bound by the future, forced to follow it’s exact routine. What a weak image of God, going against the fact that He is the master of everything.

And when Jesus said that it would have been better if Judas had never been born, He meant only figuratively; it’s better to not be born than to commit sin of the worst kind. But Jesus still chose Judas an His apostle and He still wanted him to do good and what do you know, Judas did do good; he performed miracles, forgave sins, stuff the apostles were supposed to do. He betrayed Jesus out of the hardness and evil in his heart. However, ask yourself this: if Judas instead of committing suicide like a coward went up to Jesus and His Mother on his knees and with the deepest humility asked for their forgiveness, do you think they would reject him? Imagine this: Jesus and Mary rejecting someone who sincerely repented of his sins. Jesus forgave even the Pharisees and the Jews after they crucified Him, why would He reject Judas? If anything, if Judas was only more dedicated to God, he’d be regarded as a saint and his betrayal would enver have happened.

I’m sorry if I sound blunt here, but you clearly don’t understand my position. I never questioned whether or not God loves me. I have no sense of victimhood, and I don’t look at human choices as inevitable or somehow determined by God. Let me make perfectly clear what I believe: If we end up in hell, It will be because of our own choices.

That being said, God knows what choices we will make before we make them, and even before he creates us. God knew that Judas would not repent, and he created Judas anyway. There is only so much God can do to convert people. Because of our free will, some people reject him anyway. Some people do choose to reject God. Some people do go to hell. And God knows what choices we will make. Why wouldn’t God, being merciful, stop us from making those evil choices by not creating us? Do you mean to tell me that the very ability to act freely alone is enough to warrant our creation? I find that idea highly suspect. Yes, we have the opportunity to go to heaven, but that doesn’t count for anything. What matters is whether or not we do go to heaven. Similarly, we have the chance to do good in this life, but what matters is whether or not we actually do good, and God knows this. and as I’ve already mentioned, I beleive a loving God does have good reason to create even those of us that go to hell, whether we know those reasons or not. I just offered my two reasons because they make some sense of the whole problem.

 

[Aloysium]

zro x: . . . God knows what choices we will make before we make them, and even before he creates us. God knew that Judas would not repent, and he created Judas anyway. There is only so much God can do to convert people. Because of our free will, some people reject him anyway. Some people do choose to reject God. Some people do go to hell. And God knows what choices we will make. Why wouldn’t God, being merciful, stop us from making those evil choices by not creating us? Do you mean to tell me that the very ability to act freely alone is enough to warrant our creation? I find that idea highly suspect. Yes, we have the opportunity to go to heaven, but that doesn’t count for anything. What matters is whether or not we do go to heaven. Similarly, we have the chance to do good in this life, but what matters is whether or not we actually do good, and God knows this. and as I’ve already mentioned, I beleive a loving God does have good reason to create even those of us that go to hell, whether we know those reasons or not. I just offered my two reasons because they make some sense of the whole problem.

couple of things here:

your view:
“God knew that Judas would not repent, and he created Judas anyway.”
my view:
God knows what choices we will make before He creates us because He sits outside of time
He exists before He creates us; He exists after He creates us.
If He does not create us, how can He, outside of time, know anything about us? We have not and will not have been created. We do not exist if He does not create us; there is nothing to know; no choices will have been made to know about. He has to create Judas in order to know before He creates Him that he will sin.

God’s purpose is not to create someone who He knows will sin, but to have a creature who can choose to do good. He sees a completed picture of a creation whose constituents, in part, through a reliquishing of His omnipotence to their free will, have created themselves and their own destiny - the picture that I imagine is infinitely beautiful and good.

 

[Love4All]

love4all, think for a minute about what love is. Love is the desire for good for someone else. Now ask yourself: if hell is so bad that even non-existence is a beter alternative, Could a God who knows that you will reject him be moraly justified to create you?

Are you suggesting that God is not morally justified in creating souls He knows will reject Him?

You seem to be wearing pretty big britches there. Do you have what it takes to back it up? I am reminded of God’s conversation with Job, and some things Saint Paul also said. Are you morally justified, suggesting that God might not be morally justified creating the souls that He did create? Or are you, rather, second-guessing the Church’s solemn teaching about God?

Is free will good enough that God, who wants the best for us, expresses his love by creating souls he knows will reject him, all for the sake of free will?

What about the sake of love?

I doubt it.

Doubt is the opposite of certitude, not the opposite of Faith. Faith should tell you to believe what the Church teaches you, whether or not you can grasp it intellectually. You seem to be saying that you cannot grasp “why” God would create a soul who He knew would reject Him with finality. That would be fine, and your doubts about your own reasoning as to “why,” that you have so far been able to come up with, might also be fine. It seems to me O.K. to believe and have doubts about your own reasoning. What doesn’t seem O.K., seems contrary to Faith, is if you deny the reality of what is, on the account that you don’t understand it. Catholic Doctrine is,

1. God created human beings.
2. God gave human beings free will.
3. God commands human beings to choose love, and reject sin.
4. God rewards those who choose love, with love, for all eternity.
5. God punishes those who reject all love, with eternal existence in the absence of love, for all eternity.

You seem to have a problem with 5, but not with 1 - 4. Can you come up with some alternative, that would keep 1 - 4 intact, but avoid 5? If you can, I’d like to see the logic. If you can’t, then how can you say that God necessarily could? God can do anything at all, but to contradict logic is not a thing at all, but rather nothing at all. If it isn’t anything at all, then it is not included in the “anything at all” that God can do!

I don’t know for sure why God creates souls that he knows will reject him, but, as I’ve said, I do have two speculations.

I’ll address those when I read about them.

 

[zro_x]

Are you suggesting that God is not morally justified in creating souls He knows will reject Him?

Before you go any further, let me say that I’m not suggesting that God is not morally justified in creating souls he knows will reject him. I Asked that question retorically to make the point that, whether God is justified or not, he is partially *responsible *for the fact that there are souls in hell. Sorry for the confusion.

What about the sake of love?

That’s an intrigueing possibility, but we have to be clear that we’re talking about actual love here, not possible love. It would have to mean that God created the souls he knew would go to hell because he could love souls in hell more than he could if they had never existed. if that’s what you mean, I’m willing to give the idea some consideration… and really, the idea isn’t that different from the first speculation I gave for why God creates the souls that eventually end up in hell.

Catholic Doctrine is,

1. God created human beings.
2. God gave human beings free will.
3. God commands human beings to choose love, and reject sin.
4. God rewards those who choose love, with love, for all eternity.
5. God punishes those who reject all love, with eternal existence in the absence of love, for all eternity.

I agree with all of these, though I would make a couple of ammendments to four and five. I’m not sure if the church explicitly uses the words “punish” and “reward”. It seems to me that church teaching is more along the lines of “Those who reject God and love without repenting will go to hell” and “Those who accpet God’s love will go to heaven.”

You seem to have a problem with 5, but not with 1 - 4. Can you come up with some alternative, that would keep 1 - 4 intact, but avoid 5? If you can, I’d like to see the logic. If you can’t, then how can you say that God necessarily could? God can do anything at all, but to contradict logic is not a thing at all, but rather nothing at all. If it isn’t anything at all, then it is not included in the “anything at all” that God can do!

I could come up with a logical argument for that, but since it isn’t the argument I’m trying to give here, and I wouldn’t believe it myself, I’ll refrain from giving it.

 

[zro_x]

couple of things here:

your view:
“God knew that Judas would not repent, and he created Judas anyway.”
my view:
God knows what choices we will make before He creates us because He sits outside of time
He exists before He creates us; He exists after He creates us.
If He does not create us, how can He, outside of time, know anything about us? We have not and will not have been created. We do not exist if He does not create us; there is nothing to know; no choices will have been made to know about. He has to create Judas in order to know before He creates Him that he will sin.

God’s purpose is not to create someone who He knows will sin, but to have a creature who can choose to do good. He sees a completed picture of a creation whose constituents, in part, through a reliquishing of His omnipotence to their free will, have created themselves and their own destiny - the picture that I imagine is infinitely beautiful and good.

That may be a possibility, but it does place some restrictions on God’s knowledge. My view is that if I can make sense of hell without placing such restrictions on God, it would be best to do so. And if not, than I’ll take the position you provided as a back-up.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

One perspective to consider is time I think it is much harder to imagine or visualize a being outside of time and essentially a super set of time. We are perceptually bound to motion, change, cause and effect.

When you peer into the determinism vs. free will problem you are directly staring onto a mystery that is by definition outside of your frame of reference. It’s good to meditate on aspects of God, not so good to presume.

Who goes to hell and who goes to heaven is above our pay grade. An atheist can use this inappropriate question to get you into questioning God’s righteousness and appearing to stump you as if you should have this answer. But the question does not have a human answer. Ours is not to judge people, but actions.

The appropriate answer I believe is:

I do not know who will be in heaven or hell. I do know that God is love, God is merciful, God is just and God is Truth. We are called to Love God with all of our heart, body, strength and soul. This is a challenge, because God is mysterious, but not unknowable. Jesus Christ is Lord. Do you see in Him the truth? Pursue that Truth then and you will find it worthy of love.

 

[Love4All]

One of these speculations is that existence in hell is better than non-existence.

Can you provide sources for this claim?

gratefulforpurgatory.blogspot.com/2011/03/saint-faustinas-testimony-about.html

Monday, March 14, 2011

Saint Faustina’s Testimony About the Tortures of Hell Shown to Her

“I am writing this at the command of God,
so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell,
or that nobody has ever been there,
and so no one can say what it is like.”

"Today, I was led by an Angel to the chasms of hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is! The kinds of tortures I saw: the first torture that constitutes hell is the loss of God; the second is perpetual remorse of conscience; the third is that one’s condition will never change; the fourth is the fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it–a terrible suffering, since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger; the fifth torture is continual darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and, despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own; the sixth torture is the constant company of Satan; the seventh torture is horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies. These are the tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings. There are special tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings, related to the manner in which it has sinned. There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me. Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like.

“I, Sister Faustina, by the order of God, have visited the abysses of hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence. I cannot speak about it now; but I have received a command from God to leave it in writing. The devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God. What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: that most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell. When I came to, I could hardly recover from the fright. How terribly souls suffer there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners. I incessantly plead God’s mercy upon them. O my Jesus, I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest sufferings, than offend You by the least sin.”

~ Saint Faustina; excerpt 741 from The Diary of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska ~

Posted by one grateful heart at 4:26 PM
Labels: Hell, St. Faustina

 

[zro_x]

gratefulforpurgatory.blogspot.com/2011/03/saint-faustinas-testimony-about.html

Monday, March 14, 2011

Saint Faustina’s Testimony About the Tortures of Hell Shown to Her

“I am writing this at the command of God,
so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell,
or that nobody has ever been there,
and so no one can say what it is like.”

"Today, I was led by an Angel to the chasms of hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is! The kinds of tortures I saw: the first torture that constitutes hell is the loss of God; the second is perpetual remorse of conscience; the third is that one’s condition will never change; the fourth is the fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it–a terrible suffering, since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger; the fifth torture is continual darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and, despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own; the sixth torture is the constant company of Satan; the seventh torture is horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies. These are the tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings. There are special tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings, related to the manner in which it has sinned. There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me. Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like.

“I, Sister Faustina, by the order of God, have visited the abysses of hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence. I cannot speak about it now; but I have received a command from God to leave it in writing. The devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God. What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: that most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell. When I came to, I could hardly recover from the fright. How terribly souls suffer there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners. I incessantly plead God’s mercy upon them. O my Jesus, I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest sufferings, than offend You by the least sin.”

~ Saint Faustina; excerpt 741 from The Diary of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska ~

Posted by one grateful heart at 4:26 PM
Labels: Hell, St. Faustina

Oh, I agree that hell is pretty bad. But the question is, is it worse than non-existence? Saint faustina says nothing about that here, and even if she had, the testemonies of the saints, while greatly respected, are not official church teaching.

 

[Love4All]

Athiestgirl was responding responding to one of my posts. I think that this may be the case. That’s my second reason for why God creates the souls that evetually end up in hell. Judas, apparently, was better off if he had never been born. but God created him, knowing that the would betray Jesus, because he knew Jesus needed to die for our sins

Judas’ sin in betraying Jesus was a sin against Love Himself. Judas rejected all the love that Jesus had for him. Jesus died for the sins of many, but it required that one particular sin of Judas, to actually kill Him. But the sin of Judas is in some way symptomatic of the sin of the world. It was the fact that Jesus came into a sinful world and told it the truth, that is the primary trigger of His murder. Still, Judas is, as it were, personally responsible for Christ’s crucifixion, since he it was who handed Him over. If it hadn’t been Judas, would the Sanhedrin have found some other way? Perhaps. We don’t know and won’t know. But Judas’s betrayal, we do know, is his sin.

I might also add that I do not think that Judas went to hell after he died. Rather I think his existence simply ended.

I don’t think you can find that in Catholic Doctrine. If you can, would you please?

It is my belief that a very small minority of people are created because, by their sins, they somehow bring other people to God.

And really, this does sound like love. If a loving person has to choose between the happiness of one person and the happiness of two, he will choose the happiness of two. It just doesn’t sound very JUST… but in reality, it is. Remember that the person still has free will, and still chooses his own fate.

I more or less completely disagree. Love, I think, is meaningless apart from the personality of the one who loves and who is loved. Love is personal. Choosing to save two at the cost of one is a cold, calculating move, based purely on quantity as opposed to quality. A machine would choose thus. A human being who loves, chooses based on love. If you would sacrifice one you loved and who loved you in return for two people you know nothing about, how is that love? Suppose you were on the receiving end of that. Suppose someone you loved very dearly informed you that they were going to kill you in order to save two people they know nothing about. Would you feel betrayed? Would love ever betray one’s beloved?

But that isn’t the reason why God creates those people. He knows they will reject him, and so he knows this ultimate purpose for humanity will not be fulfilled by them.

God’s ultimate purpose is His own Glory. He infinitely prefers the glory given Him by a penitent sinner to that given Him by an impenitent one, and that is why He literally stalks and hunts down souls to give them His grace. But in those who reject giving Him glory by serving Him, He still receives glory, in His infinite Justice.

Love4all, ask yourself: If it really is worse for people to be in hell than non-existent, then why doesn’t God just… let them go after they die? Wouldn’t that be the action of a truly loving God?

You want to divorce Justice from Love. I don’t think that would be Love.

 

[Love4All]

If it was better that you would never have been born, doesn’t that mean you never would have had a chance to do an iota of good in the world? Nobody knows whether he is going to hell or not but everyone knows if their behaviour is going to lead them to hell or not. Stop thinking about whether God loves you or not and actually believe that He loves you because He created you for that purpose and that purpose alone. I myelf went through a period of huge depression thinking whether I was going to hell or not until the Blessed Virgin slapped me out of it and made me realize I was getting moody over nothing; she made me realize that God does not give a single damn on what I am going to be nor what I was; all He cares is what I am right now.

So take this inflated sense of victimhood and throw it into the fire where it belongs. If anyone here goes to hell because of this subject and blames God for it, I will point out to him that he rejected His mercy when it was right in front of him all the time. God knows what you are going to be but that doesn’t mean He wants you to be a sinner nor does it mean He can’t convert you. What, is it possible that God is bound by the future, forced to follow it’s exact routine. What a weak image of God, going against the fact that He is the master of everything.

And when Jesus said that it would have been better if Judas had never been born, He meant only figuratively; it’s better to not be born than to commit sin of the worst kind. But Jesus still chose Judas an His apostle and He still wanted him to do good and what do you know, Judas did do good; he performed miracles, forgave sins, stuff the apostles were supposed to do. He betrayed Jesus out of the hardness and evil in his heart. However, ask yourself this: if Judas instead of committing suicide like a coward went up to Jesus and His Mother on his knees and with the deepest humility asked for their forgiveness, do you think they would reject him? Imagine this: Jesus and Mary rejecting someone who sincerely repented of his sins. Jesus forgave even the Pharisees and the Jews after they crucified Him, why would He reject Judas? If anything, if Judas was only more dedicated to God, he’d be regarded as a saint and his betrayal would enver have happened.

If Judas had repented, surely we would know him as Saint Judas today. His betrayal was a manifestation of his rejection of all grace. He did not believe Jesus could rise from the dead, and he did not believe in the forgiveness of sins.