Accusations of Paganism

[VociMike]

Jew_Man_73:

Maybe so. Maybe that’s why they’re trying to convert me. I still don’t understand, though. The same Messiah died on the cross, whether you’re Catholic, Episcopal, Baptist, Pentecostal, or whatever. Why all the fighting and division? I mean, there aren’t this many divisions in Judaism, and the divisions aren’t as pronounced. It’s just confusing.

Think of the Tower of Babel. The Catholic Church was the one “language” of faith given by Christ. 500 years ago there arose the prideful notion that every person could interpret the Scriptures inerrantly without the guidance of the Church. That is, they could each create their own “language” of faith. Hence the Babel of the Protestant approach. By its very nature it is destined for schism after schism after schism. And when they’re not fighting against Catholicism, they’re often fighting against each other. The whole situation is really an atrocious Christian witness. Outsiders see all this division and rightfully ask “If they can’t even decide among themselves what the truth is about their own faith, why should I even consider Christianity?”

 

[CARose]

VociMike:

Think of the Tower of Babel. The Catholic Church was the one “language” of faith given by Christ. 500 years ago there arose the prideful notion that every person could interpret the Scriptures inerrantly without the guidance of the Church. That is, they could each create their own “language” of faith. Hence the Babel of the Protestant approach. By its very nature it is destined for schism after schism after schism. And when they’re not fighting against Catholicism, they’re often fighting against each other. The whole situation is really an atrocious Christian witness. Outsiders see all this division and rightfully ask “If they can’t even decide among themselves what the truth is about their own faith, why should I even consider Christianity?”

I love the Tower of Babel analogy! Well done.

CARose

 

[VociMike]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you! That’s what I want: to learn and be prepared. Maybe it’s naive of me, but I really don’t understand all the hostility Protestants have for the Church. In the end, don’t we all worship the same G-d and believe in the same Messiah?

Here’s something John Henry Newman (an Anglican priest, one of their best and brightest, who converted to Catholicism) wrote about 150 years ago. He was discussing the situation of the Catholic Church in England, but I think his observations are more universal than that.

“It is by wholesale, retail, systematic, unscrupulous lying, for I can use no gentler term, that the many rivulets are made to flow for the feeding the great Protestant Tradition,—the Tradition of the Court, the Tradition of the Law, the Tradition of the Legislature, the Tradition of the Establishment, the Tradition of Literature, the Tradition of Domestic Circles, the Tradition of the Populace.”

From newmanreader.org/works/england/index.html (worth reading, even only skimming)

 

[Jew_Man_73]

VociMike:

You could try “Orthodoxy” and “The Everlasting Man”, followed by “The Collected Works of G.K. Chesterton vol. 3” which has a number of smaller works on his coming into the Church, etc.

BTW, here’s a story about Chesterton, which may or may not be true, but I like it. Some large magazine sent out letters to all the leading thinkers of the time asking them to write essays answering the question “What is Wrong with the World?” Chesterton sent back this answer: “I am.” (meaning, of course, that sinful people are what is wrong with the world).

Thank you for the book recommendations.

And how very true. Think about it: All the major problems of the world can ultimately be traced to sin. Excellent point.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

jjwilkman:

sorry, but i don’t think you are inquiring.

HOW DARE YOU SAY SOMETHING TO ME LIKE THAT. I HAVE GIVEN UP ALMOST EVERYTHING IN ORDER TO PUT MY FAITH IN CHRIST. I LEFT MY JEWISH FAITH AND LOST ALMOST EVERY FRIEND I HAD AS A RESULT. I WILL PRAY FOR YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY JUDGMENTAL, COLDHEARTED, AND UNCARING.

I AM IN RCIA AND AM LEARNING ABOUT THE FAITH. THAT’S WHY I ASK QUESTIONS, BECAUSE I HAVE A BRAIN. I’M SORRY YOU’RE SO IGNORANT OF YOUR OWN FAITH THAT YOU NEVER BOTHER TO ASK QUESTIONS AND LEARN.

YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY. MY PREVIOUS THREAD, “QUESTION FROM A SEEKING JEW” HAD OVER 700 POSTS, AND THAT THREAD CAUSED ME TO PUT MY FAITH IN CHRIST. AND YES, I KNOW THAT ALL CAPS ARE EQUAL TO YELLING. YOU DESERVE IT.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

VociMike:

I thought you said they were friends. What kind of friends get foul tempered, sarcastic and insulting over a friend’s journey of faith? You need to challenge their behavior as friends. I think you need to smile your biggest smile and tell them to knock it off. Just remember, they’re acting this way because they are seeking to avoid the judgement of the Church on their own beliefs. They are not concerned what Judaism thinks of their faith, nor what other Protestant believers think of their faith, but they know that if the claims of the Catholic Church are right, they are wrong and are behaving in defiance of Christ.

Of course, they’ll say they are just trying to make sure you are really saved. Some excuse for foul tempers, sarcasm, insults and jabs. I’d be tempted to tell them if that’s how saved people act you don’t want any part of it.

That’s right. All who are saved are saved through Christ, but they may only know Christ through the law written into every human heart, not through the Christian gospel. God desires that all be saved, and none are shut off from the possibility of salvation.

To be honest, I’ve been spending less and less time with them, and more and more time with the friends I’ve begun to make at the Catholic Church here. I’m just getting tired of being beaten down, you know? And that’s exactly what they keep saying, they want me to “get saved.” One of my Southern Baptist friends told me last week that when I was a religious Jew, she believed I was going to Heaven, but now that I’m Catholic. That kind of logic totally puzzles me.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut on non-Christians being saved. It makes sense to me!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

VociMike:

Think of the Tower of Babel. The Catholic Church was the one “language” of faith given by Christ. 500 years ago there arose the prideful notion that every person could interpret the Scriptures inerrantly without the guidance of the Church. That is, they could each create their own “language” of faith. Hence the Babel of the Protestant approach. By its very nature it is destined for schism after schism after schism. And when they’re not fighting against Catholicism, they’re often fighting against each other. The whole situation is really an atrocious Christian witness. Outsiders see all this division and rightfully ask “If they can’t even decide among themselves what the truth is about their own faith, why should I even consider Christianity?”

Thank you very much for that analogy! I’m going to use that the next time my friends bring this up. To be quite honest, I’ve never been very impressed with Protestantism, even when I was a religious Jew, for the same reasons you mentioned in your post.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

VociMike:

Here’s something John Henry Newman (an Anglican priest, one of their best and brightest, who converted to Catholicism) wrote about 150 years ago. He was discussing the situation of the Catholic Church in England, but I think his observations are more universal than that.

“It is by wholesale, retail, systematic, unscrupulous lying, for I can use no gentler term, that the many rivulets are made to flow for the feeding the great Protestant Tradition,—the Tradition of the Court, the Tradition of the Law, the Tradition of the Legislature, the Tradition of the Establishment, the Tradition of Literature, the Tradition of Domestic Circles, the Tradition of the Populace.”

From newmanreader.org/works/england/index.html (worth reading, even only skimming)

Good quote, thanks. Thanks for the link too. My RCIA instructor has told me several times that antone who studies Church history will become Catholic, because the evidence is that overwhelming. That’s what brought her into the Church. She was a Methodist who began studying Church history.

 

[ElizabethJoy]

Other people have covered the specifics a lot better than I can. But I fully agree and believe that the Church comes under this kind of attack precisely because truth threatens the convenience of moral relativity.

People don’t want to give up their pet sins. Birth control, abortion, not keeping the Sabbath, casual sex, pride, gossip, calumny, laziness, confession to God alone… people don’t want to hear that they are in sin and that their soul is in mortal danger. They don’t want to hear that our Creator has rules and laws for our lives. It seems like it’s limiting and controlling and trying to take away some of our favorite things. It’s too unsettling.

Much easier to try to discredit the Church with inconsequentialities, lies or twists of the truth than to wrestle with the actual truth. Easier to justify our refusal to listen to God if we have righteous indignation toward His Church in our soul.

I know - it’s a ruse that seemed to work for me for a lonnnng time.

Today, I don’t much care where original practice of burning incense comes from - what’s important to me is what it means within the Catholic rite.

If the Church took a local practice and purified it and consecrated it to the practice of Christianity (such as the liturgical dancing in some areas of the world) then it’s no longer solely a pagan practice, right? It’s a Christian practice when used within the rites of the Church.

God can take anything and use it for good and holy purposes within His law and incense in the Catholic Church has nothing to do with invoking the powers of air or fire.

God bless you!
Elizabeth

 

[CARose]

Just last night I encountered a challenge against Religion in general from a friend we haven’t seen in a long time. He found that I’ve gotten religious since we last saw him and asked what I thought of the new Pope (He’s wonderful) and then why. When I commented on this he retorted that all Organized Religion seeks to control humanity with it’s manmade rules.

ARGH.

We were at dinner in a nice restaurant and my husband is uncomfortable with my still new to him Catholicism, so I made a quick counter but didn’t get into it.

It’s amazing to see how people think it’s ok to just completely put down your view of the world.

CARose

 

[Jew_Man_73]

ElizabethJoy:

Other people have covered the specifics a lot better than I can. But I fully agree and believe that the Church comes under this kind of attack precisely because truth threatens the convenience of moral relativity.

People don’t want to give up their pet sins. Birth control, abortion, not keeping the Sabbath, casual sex, pride, gossip, calumny, laziness, confession to God alone… people don’t want to hear that they are in sin and that their soul is in mortal danger. They don’t want to hear that our Creator has rules and laws for our lives. It seems like it’s limiting and controlling and trying to take away some of our favorite things. It’s too unsettling.

Much easier to try to discredit the Church with inconsequentialities, lies or twists of the truth than to wrestle with the actual truth. Easier to justify our refusal to listen to God if we have righteous indignation toward His Church in our soul.

I know - it’s a ruse that seemed to work for me for a lonnnng time.

Today, I don’t much care where original practice of burning incense comes from - what’s important to me is what it means within the Catholic rite.

If the Church took a local practice and purified it and consecrated it to the practice of Christianity (such as the liturgical dancing in some areas of the world) then it’s no longer solely a pagan practice, right? It’s a Christian practice when used within the rites of the Church.

God can take anything and use it for good and holy purposes within His law and incense in the Catholic Church has nothing to do with invoking the powers of air or fire.

God bless you!
Elizabeth

Thanks, G-d bless you too! My rosaries, statues, and crucifixes really offend my friends! They hate them! I’m not going to remove them from view when they come over, though. I mean, it is my home. Personally, I find the statues, crucifixes, etc to be very meaningful. We have them all over my church, and it adds an air of worship and reverence. We don’t use incense, though. I don;t know why. I’m glad I started this thread. I’ve gained some useful information that I can use as rebuttals!

 

[ElizabethJoy]

Jew_Man_73:

One of my Southern Baptist friends told me last week that when I was a religious Jew, she believed I was going to Heaven, but now that I’m Catholic. That kind of logic totally puzzles me.

Yikes! No doubt!

LOL - well, that is confounding, but it sort of reinforces the notion of how threatening is this faith to people who do not understand it. And the reaction is proportional to the level of threat perceived, no?

I think we can be somewhat fragile at first because even though we newbies have such enthusiasm and love for this faith, we also lack the ability of quick defense, so we end up feeling frustrated. It can also shake our faith unless we are vigilant.

Better for us maybe to be around people who help us understand and who strengthen our faith in these early days of conversion. (And not even all Catholics will do either of those things, so we have to be careful there, too.)

Good luck and God bless you every step of the way, friend.
Elizabeth

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Just last night I encountered a challenge against Religion in general from a friend we haven’t seen in a long time. He found that I’ve gotten religious since we last saw him and asked what I thought of the new Pope (He’s wonderful) and then why. When I commented on this he retorted that all Organized Religion seeks to control humanity with it’s manmade rules.

ARGH.

We were at dinner in a nice restaurant and my husband is uncomfortable with my still new to him Catholicism, so I made a quick counter but didn’t get into it.

It’s amazing to see how people think it’s ok to just completely put down your view of the world.

CARose

Yes, I’ve been getting alot of putdowns lately. I try to brush it off and pray about it as best I can, but it’s hard sometimes.

By the way, I’m so glad that you’ve “gotten religious!” I pray your husband follows suit!

I have a couple friends like that too. They’re not only anti-Catholic, they’re anti- all religions. They have no use for any belief system whatsoever. I’ve tried to talk to them, but I can’t. I don’t know what to say. I pray for them regularly.

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

…By the way, I’m so glad that you’ve “gotten religious!” I pray your husband follows suit!

Thanks I’m glad I found Christ as well. I hope my husband also follows. I would greatly appreciate the prayers of anyone willing to assist in praying for his conversion.

… They have no use for any belief system whatsoever. I’ve tried to talk to them, but I can’t. I don’t know what to say. I pray for them regularly.

I think you’re onto something important. They need our prayers and lots of them.

If the circumstances were different, perhaps without my husband present, I would have been happy to engage in a discussion, but I’m not interested in making my husband uncomfortable in the way I discuss religion with his friends in his presence.

CARose

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Thanks I’m glad I found Christ as well. I hope my husband also follows. I would greatly appreciate the prayers of anyone willing to assist in praying for his conversion.

I think you’re onto something important. They need our prayers and lots of them.

If the circumstances were different, perhaps without my husband present, I would have been happy to engage in a discussion, but I’m not interested in making my husband uncomfortable in the way I discuss religion with his friends in his presence.

CARose

I agree, going into an in depth discussion would probably have done more ahrm than good to your husband at that point. That’s how I feel about my non-Christian friends right now. I’m trying to learn about the Catholic faith as well as develop some apologetics skills, and I think I need to just be silent sometimes instead of trying to make a case I’m not qualified to make. Of course, my non-religious friends don’t think of me any differently. They’re anti-Jewish and anti-Catholic, so they don’t care one way or the other.

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

I agree, going into an in depth discussion would probably have done more ahrm than good to your husband at that point. That’s how I feel about my non-Christian friends right now. I’m trying to learn about the Catholic faith as well as develop some apologetics skills, and I think I need to just be silent sometimes instead of trying to make a case I’m not qualified to make.

I don’t know if it has to be a matter of not being qualified, as much as picking your battles. It’s left me sad and somewhat unsettled, but that’s the cross I have to bare at this particular time regarding this friend. I suspect you’ll continue to have situations like this arise, even where you are fully prepared to answer the concerns raised. But sometimes (not always) the most charitable thing you can do is to hold your tongue. It can be incredibly hard!

Of course, my non-religious friends don’t think of me any differently. They’re anti-Jewish and anti-Catholic, so they don’t care one way or the other.

It’s funny that you at least have the consolation of this one area of stability.

I’m happy to learn that you’re in an RCIA program. So, she’s working with you independently? That’s cool. Will you still go ahead and wait until Easter for your entry to the Church?

CARose

 

[VociMike]

Jew_Man_73:

I agree, going into an in depth discussion would probably have done more ahrm than good to your husband at that point. That’s how I feel about my non-Christian friends right now. I’m trying to learn about the Catholic faith as well as develop some apologetics skills, and I think I need to just be silent sometimes instead of trying to make a case I’m not qualified to make. Of course, my non-religious friends don’t think of me any differently. They’re anti-Jewish and anti-Catholic, so they don’t care one way or the other.

Stand firm in your new faith, and don’t be at all surprised if God uses your witness to bring some of them home to Him as well.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

I don’t know if it has to be a matter of not being qualified, as much as picking your battles. It’s left me sad and somewhat unsettled, but that’s the cross I have to bare at this particular time regarding this friend. I suspect you’ll continue to have situations like this arise, even where you are fully prepared to answer the concerns raised. But sometimes (not always) the most charitable thing you can do is to hold your tongue. It can be incredibly hard!

It’s funny that you at least have the consolation of this one area of stability.

I’m happy to learn that you’re in an RCIA program. So, she’s working with you independently? That’s cool. Will you still go ahead and wait until Easter for your entry to the Church?

CARose

Yes, I thought that was ironic as well. My non-religious friends accept me no matter what I am.

Yes, she’s workign with me independently right now, and in the fall I’m going to join the regular RCIA class with all the other students. I still have to wait until Easter to be confirmed, though. I have already had a sacrament, though, according to her. I’ve been to confession once. She said that since I’ve received a sacrament, I’m alomost a Catholic and might be able to take Communion before next Easter. Have you ever heard of anything like this before? I told her I thought I had to complete RCIA and be officially confirmed first, but she said not in all cases.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

VociMike:

Stand firm in your new faith, and don’t be at all surprised if God uses your witness to bring some of them home to Him as well.

Thank you, I appreciate your words of encouragement. I pray to Miriam and the Messiah daily.

By the way, I’d like to share a piece of good news. A guy that I’ve started becoming friends with from the choir bought me a rosary and gave it to me as a gift today. I’m going to have it blessed by the priest tomorrow after Mass. Also, my choir director gave me a book that explains the Rosary and how to pray it. I’m going to read it after I get mine blessed. I’m kind of excited. It was a total surprise.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Yikes! No doubt!

LOL - well, that is confounding, but it sort of reinforces the notion of how threatening is this faith to people who do not understand it. And the reaction is proportional to the level of threat perceived, no?

I think we can be somewhat fragile at first because even though we newbies have such enthusiasm and love for this faith, we also lack the ability of quick defense, so we end up feeling frustrated. It can also shake our faith unless we are vigilant.

Better for us maybe to be around people who help us understand and who strengthen our faith in these early days of conversion. (And not even all Catholics will do either of those things, so we have to be careful there, too.)

Good luck and God bless you every step of the way, friend.
Elizabeth

Yes, I’ve been very frustrated at times.

As far as my Southern Baptist friend, I think it might have something to do with how her denomination views Jews. With their high regard for Israel and the Jewish people, maybe they believe that Jews are saved even if they don’t believe in the Messiah. I don’t know, just my guess.

I’ve been spending more and more time around some people I’ve met at church, and less and less time around my anti-Catholic friends. At times I feel like it’s necessary for my own sanity. I don’t want to abandon my other friends, though.

Unfortunately, I have found that not even all Catholics will strengthen the faith of a new convert. Even some Catholics are coldhearted and apathetic. They just need prayer.