Accusations of Paganism

[Ghosty]

I mean, I just converted from Judaism and I understand, but they don’t seem to.

I think this is the most telling statement about the real nature of the Church and Protestantism in the entire thread. As you’ve heard me say many times, the Church is nothing if not the logical extension of Judaism in the Messianic Era. Judaism doesn’t really reject on principle anything from Catholicism, but rather rejects the timing of it more than anything else, and the Church rejects nothing of Judaism. Protestantism, on the other hand, is fundamentally about rejecting elements of the Church. Their entire existance is predicated on a “no” rather than a “yes”, so they must continue to define themselves through general negativity. As a Jew, you can see the reality of the Church as what is essentially Messianic Temple Judaism, because the Church does not make great leaps from Judaism, nor does it hold to negative identifiers. Protestants, on the other hand, must reject the Church by definition. They simply can’t see the ties and the continuation because to do so would invalidate their beliefs. A Jew, on the other hand, generally finds nothing but validation in the Church, even if it looks foreign at first.

Personally I think this is one of the fundamental subjective indicators that the Church is indeed the true continuation of God’s revelation.

 

[VociMike]

Ghosty:

I think this is the most telling statement about the real nature of the Church and Protestantism in the entire thread. As you’ve heard me say many times, the Church is nothing if not the logical extension of Judaism in the Messianic Era. Judaism doesn’t really reject on principle anything from Catholicism, but rather rejects the timing of it more than anything else, and the Church rejects nothing of Judaism. Protestantism, on the other hand, is fundamentally about rejecting elements of the Church. Their entire existance is predicated on a “no” rather than a “yes”, so they must continue to define themselves through general negativity. As a Jew, you can see the reality of the Church as what is essentially Messianic Temple Judaism, because the Church does not make great leaps from Judaism, nor does it hold to negative identifiers. Protestants, on the other hand, must reject the Church by definition. They simply can’t see the ties and the continuation because to do so would invalidate their beliefs. A Jew, on the other hand, generally finds nothing but validation in the Church, even if it looks foreign at first.

Personally I think this is one of the fundamental subjective indicators that the Church is indeed the true continuation of God’s revelation.

The Catholic Church is indeed unique, as is Judaism, in that it doesn’t begin its message by claiming that it came into existence due to a previous failure or corruption (not talking about Adam and Eve here ). Protestantism, as well as Islam, do make this negative claim for their origins. The Catholic Church never asserts that God’s plan failed and He had to fix it. Protestantism has no reason for existing unless it makes this claim and sticks by it regardless of the evidence.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Ghosty:

I think this is the most telling statement about the real nature of the Church and Protestantism in the entire thread. As you’ve heard me say many times, the Church is nothing if not the logical extension of Judaism in the Messianic Era. Judaism doesn’t really reject on principle anything from Catholicism, but rather rejects the timing of it more than anything else, and the Church rejects nothing of Judaism. Protestantism, on the other hand, is fundamentally about rejecting elements of the Church. Their entire existance is predicated on a “no” rather than a “yes”, so they must continue to define themselves through general negativity. As a Jew, you can see the reality of the Church as what is essentially Messianic Temple Judaism, because the Church does not make great leaps from Judaism, nor does it hold to negative identifiers. Protestants, on the other hand, must reject the Church by definition. They simply can’t see the ties and the continuation because to do so would invalidate their beliefs. A Jew, on the other hand, generally finds nothing but validation in the Church, even if it looks foreign at first.

Personally I think this is one of the fundamental subjective indicators that the Church is indeed the true continuation of God’s revelation.

Thank you very much for your post. I hadn’t thought of that before, but it makes perfect sense. The Catholic Church arose out of the Jewish faith, and was the fulfillment of everything the Jews had been expecting. Protestants can’t say that, since they only date back a few hundred years.

Also, you’re correct. All I’ve been hearing from my Protestant friends is 'no, no, no." All in reference to the Church. This is in stark contrast to what I’ve been experiencing from the people at my parish. Their approach is more “yes, yes, yes.” While my Protestant friends have been trying to destro my newfound Catholic faith, my new Catholic friends have been building me up and trying to strengthen my newfound faith in the Messiah. Not once have my Protestant friends expressed joy over the fact that I now have faith in the same Messiah they believe in too.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

VociMike:

The Catholic Church is indeed unique, as is Judaism, in that it doesn’t begin its message by claiming that it came into existence due to a previous failure or corruption (not talking about Adam and Eve here ). Protestantism, as well as Islam, do make this negative claim for their origins. The Catholic Church never asserts that God’s plan failed and He had to fix it.

Very good point! I’m going to remember that for future use. The very nature of Protestantism is negative from the very beginning. Maybe that accounts for the differing attitudes I’ve experienced among the Protestants and Catholics I know.

 

[VociMike]

Jew_Man_73:

Very good point! I’m going to remember that for future use. The very nature of Protestantism is negative from the very beginning. Maybe that accounts for the differing attitudes I’ve experienced among the Protestants and Catholics I know.

Yes, the claims of a particular Protestant (or other pseudo-Christian) denomination will typically argue that God’s plan failed, and then it failed again, and again, and so on. But finally in the year XXXX (whenever that denomination started up) God finally got it right. They make God out to be quite the bumbler, actually.

The Catholic Church makes no such argument. It’s argument is that God’s plan for fallen mankind has been a straight line of success after success, from Judaism to Catholicism. As you say, these fundamental differences between Catholicism and Protestantism in the view of their origins make for other fundamental differences in their views.

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

… Not once have my Protestant friends expressed joy over the fact that I now have faith in the same Messiah they believe in too.

Isn’t this a sad thing!

CARose

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Yes, the claims of a particular Protestant (or other pseudo-Christian) denomination will typically argue that God’s plan failed, and then it failed again, and again, and so on. But finally in the year XXXX (whenever that denomination started up) God finally got it right. They make God out to be quite the bumbler, actually.

That’s offensive, and blasphemous. I’ve heard some of my Protestant friends make remarks similar to that, and it’s always sparked my wrath.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Isn’t this a sad thing!

CARose

Yes, it is. It makes me want to pray for their souls.

 

[Liberian]

VociMike:

Here’s what Newman says (he gets quoted a lot by those accusing the Church of paganism, showing that those making the accusations don’t understand what he is saying at all):


The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.

The line in there about the use of rings in marriage is frequently left out of the Protestant quotes of Newman on the subject. It bears emphasizing if the subject comes up.

• Liberian

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Liberian:

The line in there about the use of rings in marriage is frequently left out of the Protestant quotes of Newman on the subject. It bears emphasizing if the subject comes up.

• Liberian

Thanks. I read a little about it today. Apparently it was a pagan custom dating back to before the time of Christ. Since Protestants practice this, I’m going to keep it in mind for future use.

 

[VociMike]

Liberian:

The line in there about the use of rings in marriage is frequently left out of the Protestant quotes of Newman on the subject. It bears emphasizing if the subject comes up.

You’re right, I had forgotten about that. Do a Google search on “sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure” (with the quote marks) and lots of hits referring to The Whore of Babylon, heresies, idolatry, etc will show up with the part about wedding rings removed. The dishonesty is breathtaking.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

VociMike:

You’re right, I had forgotten about that. Do a Google search on “sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure” (with the quote marks) and lots of hits referring to The Whore of Babylon, heresies, idolatry, etc will show up with the part about wedding rings removed. The dishonesty is breathtaking.

Wow. I’m going to have to try that, thanks.

 

[TeriGator]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you, I hadn’t thought of that. To be honest, I thought of Miram and the Saints as being dead too. It makes sense, though, that they would all be alive if they were with G-d in Heaven. So are their bodies dead, but their spirits alive? (Except for Miriam, who was assumed, of course.)

You’ve got it! There may be a few up there with their bodies, such as Elisha and Mary, but most of humanity must wait until the Second Coming of our Lord before the body will be reunited with the soul.

Actually, that makes me think of the Church. The Church is Christ’s body on earth, and He is the Soul. When He returns, the body (church) will be reunited forever with the soul (Christ).

Hope that made sense. It’s late here, and sometimes I get a little punchy at this time of night. :whacky:

 

[Jew_Man_73]

TeriGator:

You’ve got it! There may be a few up there with their bodies, such as Elisha and Mary, but most of humanity must wait until the Second Coming of our Lord before the body will be reunited with the soul.

Actually, that makes me think of the Church. The Church is Christ’s body on earth, and He is the Soul. When He returns, the body (church) will be reunited forever with the soul (Christ).

Hope that made sense. It’s late here, and sometimes I get a little punchy at this time of night. :whacky:

Thank you, that makes alot of sense. I’ve heard the bride analogy before referring to the Church. It sounds to me like it’s a great honor for Elijah and Miriam to be assumed instead having to suffer a physical death.

 

[TeriGator]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you, that makes alot of sense. I’ve heard the bride analogy before referring to the Church. It sounds to me like it’s a great honor for Elijah and Miriam to be assumed instead having to suffer a physical death.

Thanks for not pointing out my typo. I meant Elijah, of course.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

TeriGator:

Thanks for not pointing out my typo. I meant Elijah, of course.

LOL, no problem, you’re welcome!

 

[antiaphrodite]

Jew_Man_73:

That’s offensive, and blasphemous. I’ve heard some of my Protestant friends make remarks similar to that, and it’s always sparked my wrath.

you’re right! saying that God had to do things over and over again makes Him look like some klutzy toy-maker. kinda like the image of God non-believers hold on to. which is blasphemous!

 

[antiaphrodite]

Jew_Man_73:

Yes, it is. It makes me want to pray for their souls.

well, they need the prayers. sad, though; very sad.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

antiaphrodite:

you’re right! saying that God had to do things over and over again makes Him look like some klutzy toy-maker. kinda like the image of God non-believers hold on to. which is blasphemous!/QUOTE

Exactly. It’s contradictory. They claim He’s perfect, but then claim he allowed the Church to apostatize for 1500 years. Crazy!

 

[antiaphrodite]

CARose:

Thanks I’m glad I found Christ as well. I hope my husband also follows. I would greatly appreciate the prayers of anyone willing to assist in praying for his conversion.

CARose

we’re praying for him.