ACLU wants apology after student leads graduation crowd in reciting Lord's Prayer

[pinay]

Ever try?

The Westbourgh Baptist Church consists of just a few lawyers but they have defeated entire state and city legal departments backed by millions of taxpayer dollars. How does a school district fight them when they operate on a limited budget?

I think this discussion also got out of synch.

We are not talking about the Public School district fighting the ACLU.

Here’s the discussion in context:

Stated: If somebody spoke out AGAINST Christianity in the graduation ceremony, there wouldn’t be any requests for apology.

I replied: Only because you didn’t send out one, meaning to say - Christians should defend their own religion by sending the request for apology to the school instead of relying on the questionable morals of the ACLU to do it for them.

To which somebody replied: Nobody has the means to go against the ACLU.

To which I replied: There are quite a number of benefactors to the Catholic Church with pockets and influence deep enough to do so - and that’s not counting all the other Christian organizations out there.

So, what I’m trying to say is that - if a Christian finds that Christianity is attacked in a Public School, then a Christian organization should fight that battle and make their displeasure known officially - a request for apology sent to the school is one way to do so - just like the ACLU does when they perceive their agenda is trampled.

 

[irishpatrick]

I think our thread got lost in the exchange and we are not in synch with the discussion. Let me see if I can bring it back to context:

The exchange was:

Stated: If somebody spoke out AGAINST Christianity in the graduation ceremony, there wouldn’t be any requests for apology.

I replied: Only because you didn’t send out one, meaning to say - Christians should defend their own religion by sending the request for apology to the school instead of relying on the questionable morals of the ACLU to do it for them.

Does that make sense now?

Yes, it makes sense now, and it made sense when you first said it, and I understood then and understand it now. Pheeew.

I just disagree. Christians do defend their faith–yet orgs like the ACLU will rarely ever hear something from a complaining Christian because they are more about attacking Christianity. Please, read the link I provided before…this nation really has taken a turn against Christianity–it is plain and clear to see and know, and yes that includes the OP’s example about the student. There should be NO request for an apology…none.

 

[pinay]

Insulting words (to others) is not cause to take away free speech. I honestly can understand why a public school would refuse to sanction a Christian prayer–yet if a student chooses to do so on his/her own, that is simply a reflection of them using their protected right to free speech and their protected right to freely practice their faith. If someone from a different faith had recited a prayer from their faith, I am sure Christians would not join in, yet the person doing the reciting would be simply using their rights to do so.

The modern so-called “hate speech” mantra is quite dangerous imo–it tends to say people are not really free to speak.

We either have liberty, or we do not.

A public school is a government school. By State Law (I don’t know what you have in your state, it’s what we have in Florida), it is against the law to show preference, promote, or teach religion in the public school.

This is not taking away free speech. Having a law that says you cannot yell “Fire” in a theater is not taking away free speech. Having a law that says you cannot, even in jest, talk about assasinating the President, is not taking away free speech. Even the social repercussion of saying the n-word is not taking away free speech.

There are a lot of things that I am fighting the Public School in my county on. For example, a few years ago, a “Silence Day” was proposed for the Public High School. This is a day where all gay people “come out of the closet” and tell people what is so great about being gay and all the other students have to remain silent. I was at the school fighting that proposal. I do not believe my sons should be subjected to being MUM on something like that (no, I don’t have kids in high school yet, but I was still there anyway). But, even then, one public high school in the entire county carried out Silence Day.

How do you think I can successfully fight Silence Day when from the other side of my mouth I expect all students - Christian or not - to be Silent while my child LEADS the school in the Lord’s Prayer?

 

[irishpatrick]

A public school is a government school. By State Law (I don’t know what you have in your state, it’s what we have in Florida), it is against the law to show preference, promote, or teach religion in the public school.

This is not taking away free speech. Having a law that says you cannot yell “Fire” in a theater is not taking away free speech. Having a law that says you cannot, even in jest, talk about assasinating the President, is not taking away free speech. Even the social repercussion of saying the n-word is not taking away free speech.

There are a lot of things that I am fighting the Public School in my county on. For example, a few years ago, a “Silence Day” was proposed for the Public High School. This is a day where all gay people “come out of the closet” and tell people what is so great about being gay and all the other students have to remain silent. I was at the school fighting that proposal. I do not believe my sons should be subjected to being MUM on something like that (no, I don’t have kids in high school yet, but I was still there anyway). But, even then, one public high school in the entire county carried out Silence Day.

How do you think I can successfully fight Silence Day when from the other side of my mouth I expect all students - Christian or not - to be Silent while my child LEADS the school in the Lord’s Prayer?

sigh I find myself repeating words I have written before–so between you and I this is my last message.

First, there is nothing at all wrong with providing a moment of silence since it is given fairly and equally to every student.

Second, if a public school proclaims that the Lord’s Prayer will be said, if they make it a formal announcemnet, then yes that would be a breach of the mythical wall of separation of Church and state.

Third, a student that addresses the student body still retain his/her free speech and they still retain their right to freely express and practice their religion (note: Christians are called to bring the Gospel to all people). He/she can speak about anything they desire, obviously so long as it is not harmful (like yelling fire in a theater), and yes that includes saying a prayer. Reciting the Lord’s prayer causes no harm because those in attendance can choose to recite the prayer or they can choose to ignore the entire thing…the attendees retain their freedom and no harm is done–at all.

**If you do no agree, than we have different views of liberty **and you are more to the left than you probably know.

[btw, as a side note, if you did deep research you would find that original purpose of public schools was to “Americanize” the populaton, both native and immigrants. The government used the schools to create people that were on the same page and never was ever considered a problem to say a prayer before school began, and never was it considered harmful to speak of religion in school–those are all modern perversions brought to us by the left and the likes of the ACLU]

Take care.

 

[pinay]

sigh I find myself repeating words I have written before–so between you and I this is my last message.

First, there is nothing at all wrong with providing a moment of silence since it is given fairly and equally to every student.

Second, if a public school proclaims that the Lord’s Prayer will be said, if they make it a formal announcemnet, then yes that would be a breach of the mythical wall of separation of Church and state.

Third, a student that addresses the student body still retain his/her free speech and they still retain their right to freely express and practice their religion (note: Christians are called to bring the Gospel to all people). He/she can speak about anything they desire, obviously so long as it is not harmful (like yelling fire in a theater), and yes that includes saying a prayer. Reciting the Lord’s prayer causes no harm because those in attendance can choose to recite the prayer or they can choose to ignore the entire thing…the attendees retain their freedom and no harm is done–at all.

**If you do no agree, than we have different views of liberty **and you are more to the left than you probably know.

[btw, as a side note, if you did deep research you would find that original purpose of public schools was to “Americanize” the populaton, both native and immigrants. The government used the schools to create people that were on the same page and never was ever considered a problem to say a prayer before school began, and never was it considered harmful to speak of religion in school–those are all modern perversions brought to us by the left and the likes of the ACLU]

Take care.

I’ve address this one on this thread before as well.

A student assigned to address the graduating class is doing so at the behest of the government administration. A Valedictory Address, for example, has to be vetted by the School Administration. You can’t just offer any address you desire.

Here’s a newstory from Florida to support this:
tampabay.com/news/education/k12/article1007433.ece

This is not just a private citizen offering a public speech. This is a student of a public school acting as a representative of the Government School System.

 

[SamH]

I think this discussion also got out of synch.

We are not talking about the Public School district fighting the ACLU.

Here’s the discussion in context:

Stated: If somebody spoke out AGAINST Christianity in the graduation ceremony, there wouldn’t be any requests for apology.

I replied: Only because you didn’t send out one, meaning to say - Christians should defend their own religion by sending the request for apology to the school instead of relying on the questionable morals of the ACLU to do it for them.

To which somebody replied: Nobody has the means to go against the ACLU.

To which I replied: There are quite a number of benefactors to the Catholic Church with pockets and influence deep enough to do so - and that’s not counting all the other Christian organizations out there…

But in this case is a case of the ACLU going after a school district. You don’t think there isn’t a veiled (or open) threat in their request for an apology? School districts have been the target of the ACLU for decades for the exact reason I stated. They can “comply” with the ACLU’s demands or spend massive amounts of resources defending their actions while their students suffer from lack of funds.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I’ve address this one on this thread before as well.

A student assigned to address the graduating class is doing so at the behest of the government administration. A Valedictory Address, for example, has to be vetted by the School Administration. You can’t just offer any address you desire.

Here’s a newstory from Florida to support this:
tampabay.com/news/education/k12/article1007433.ece

This is not just a private citizen offering a public speech. This is a student of a public school acting as a representative of the Government School System.

First and For most most the Goverment and Its agents work for the Public. they are to serve the publeic not be served by the public.
Second the constitution states that congress can not interfer with the free expression of religion.
Third just because a teacher / or student is in a public role in that facility does not remove from them their rights under the constition.
Fourth leading a prayer is not the same as yelling fire in a theater or makeing a threat to assinate anyone.
Fifth no where in the laws of this country is the freedom from religion given nor is there the right not to be offened .
Sixth our goverment was setup to protect the rights of the individual from the goverment and then of society as a whole. Everything starts with the rights of the one.
Seventh If the person speaking is of stong faith, reguardless of that faith they are going to share that in there speach
eighth what in the Our Father prayer would offed a jew or a muslim as christ is not even mentioned in it and both of them beleive in God the Father. Also if atheist they do not beleive in any god so why would they be anymore offended then if the person was up there and spoke of any other thing that they consider mythical?
Nineth if there were pagan could not they see the father as just another of their many gods so what is to be offened by.
and Tenth when you remove God you leave a void that any matter of ungodly thing will seep into. Look at what going on in the public schools since we have worked so hard to remove public prayer from them.

 

[SamH]

This is not just a private citizen offering a public speech. This is a student of a public school acting as a representative of the Government School System.

Some animals are more equal than others.

Actually the student is a representative of the Class of 2011, a group of individual students. If he were a representative of the “Government School System” shouldn’t he be paid? Does the SEIU know that there are unpaid government workers doing the job that should be a union position?

 

[Cristiano]

…This is not just a private citizen offering a public speech. This is a student of a public school acting as a representative of the Government School System.

I think that this is not really true. A student is a customer of the Local Government School System. Taxes are paid to the Local Government in exchange of educational services. A customer can endorse his supplier but it should not be confused with the supplier. A student speaking at such event is speaking as a representative of the customers of the school system.

 

[LaFleurDeLis]

I think this has more to do with the community. Two years ago I graduated from a relgion centered small town. This small town had about 5 churches. At my graduation ceremony, prayers were read, and every student that made a speech thanked God for getting them to that point. No one complained, and there certainly wasn’t a big to-do about it in the news. The problem is always with people in the community who feel that someone expressing their thoughts or beliefs in God shouldn’t be allowed at school. At my school, those who wanted to participate did, if you didn’t no problem. I can remember being at a basketball game before sectionals one year and the very devout boys basketball coach asked the students that if they wished they could gather on the court and have a group prayer. This was at the end of a pep session.

So in the end, it really comes down to the community. If they are accepting, then headlines like this just won’t exist.