ACLU wants feds to investigate Catholic hospitals' ban on sterilization procedures

[sallybutler]

Abstinence would also have prevented death, and doesn’t require an abnormally large amount of hormones disrupting the natural functioning your body. The argument that it “prevented death” just goes to show how phenomenally misguided our culture has become, they they view sex as something more necessary than prudence.

If my wife’s life truly depended on it, then I would sacrifice sex. It just not important enough to risk her life. Beyond that, what happens if the birth control fails? That happens fairly frequently, so what then? Following your logic, it would be morally permissible for her to have an abortion, since it’s only being done because her life is in danger as a result of her free choice to have sex.

This woman is trying to prevent having to choose an abortion in the future. And she wants to continue having marital relations with her husband. While it is noble of you to say you will give up marital relations with your wife, what would you do if she said she wanted marital relations knowing it could kill her but she wanted it. You would deny your wife that?

Sorry, most marital interactions occur because the woman wants it. You will cave and your wife would die in this scenario. Sorry.

 

[RCinMT]

This woman is trying to prevent having to choose an abortion in the future. And she wants to continue having marital relations with her husband. While it is noble of you to say you will give up marital relations with your wife, what would you do if she said she wanted marital relations knowing it could kill her but she wanted it. You would deny your wife that?

Sorry, most marital interactions occur because the woman wants it. You will cave and your wife would die in this scenario. Sorry.

NFP has virtually the same success rate as ABC.

I posed the question, below, earlier and I’d be interested to read your response:

Why would this also not apply to single people who say they *need *it? What if for some reason it becomes physically impossible for either the husband or wife to engage in the activity: would this priest then tell the still capable one to have an extramarital affair because he or she needs to have sex?

 

[sallybutler]

NFP has virtually the same success rate as ABC.

I posed the question, below, earlier and I’d be interested to read your response:
On what grounds do you suppose a priest would say not to use NFP instead of ABC? This isn’t a slippery slope this type of thinking is, to paraphrase Chesterton, to tear down the fence without knowing why it’s there in the first place. For priest to encourage or bless ABC instead of NFP or abstinence as a way to avoid pregnancy on the grounds that not having sex is detrimental to a marriage is incredibly hard to believe. Why would that not apply to single people who need it? What if for some reason it becomes physically impossible for either the husband or wife to engage in the activity: would this priest then tell the still capable one to have an extramarital affair because he or she needs to have sex?

There are situations where a pregnancy would be terminal to the mother and therefore the baby. Most couples are not able or willing to have what is called a Josephean marriage. No sexual intercourse ever. No offense meant, but I suspect women are less likely to agree than men are. We like cuddling,which leads to intercourse,which leads to pregnancy. Trust me, we woman have more control over when than you men do. Sorry if that bursts any bubbles.

 

[RCinMT]

There are situations where a pregnancy would be terminal to the mother and therefore the baby. Most couples are not able or willing to have what is called a Josephean marriage. No sexual intercourse ever. No offense meant, but I suspect women are less likely to agree than men are. We like cuddling,which leads to intercourse,which leads to pregnancy. Trust me, we woman have more control over when than you men do. Sorry if that bursts any bubbles.

You didn’t comment on NFP, specifically why that would be any less an option than ABC (especially given the efficacy) nor did you explain how exactly the Church (or the wayward priest) would handle the situations I presented.

Also, free will enables to make choices. The only alternative is to profess determinism.

 

[sallybutler]

You didn’t comment on NFP, specifically why that would be any less an option than ABC (especially given the efficacy) nor did you explain how exactly the Church (or the wayward priest) would handle the situations I presented.

Having used NFP for many years, you obviously know nothing about me. I also was never told that if I got pregnant, I would die and so would my child. I would do whatever it took to protect my current children, not future potential children. If that makes me a bad Catholic, so be it.

 

[St_Francis]

This woman is trying to prevent having to choose an abortion in the future.

No, she is trying to have sex whenever she wants without getting pregnant.

And she wants to continue having marital relations with her husband. While it is noble of you to say you will give up marital relations with your wife, what would you do if she said she wanted marital relations knowing it could kill her but she wanted it. You would deny your wife that?

Sorry, most marital interactions occur because the woman wants it. You will cave and your wife would die in this scenario. Sorry.

You seem to be saying that women cannot control themselves *even at the risk of their lives. *Why do you have such a low opinion of women?!?

 

[sallybutler]

No, she is trying to have sex whenever she wants without getting pregnant.

You seem to be saying that women cannot control themselves *even at the risk of their lives. *Why do you have such a low opinion of women?!?

No, I am saying that women enjoy having relations with their husbands as much as husbands enjoy having relations with their wives. God, as the church teaches, approves of this behavior, desiring your husband. A tubal ligation can be temporary.

God gave us the knowledge to help this woman. Why would you deny her. Especially since it is reversible?

 

[St_Francis]

No, I am saying that women enjoy having relations with their husbands as much as husbands enjoy having relations with their wives. God, as the church teaches, approves of this behavior, desiring your husband. A tubal ligation can be temporary.

God gave us the knowledge to help this woman. Why would you deny her. Especially since it is reversible?

Did you read my previous post where I imagined I was a doctor? It’s on page 3.

What am “I” denying the woman?

 

[sallybutler]

Did you read my previous post where I imagined I was a doctor? It’s on page 3.

What am “I” denying the woman?

#1. I only have 2 pages. A post number would be more helpful.

#2. Neither you nor I.am a doctor

#3. I am a mother. If a doctor told me another pregnancy could cause me to die, I would have my tubes tied, Church teachings be dammed. A) God can overcome that as I would be happy with additional children, B) I want to see my existing children grow to adulthood, C) I want to live long enough to see my grand babies.

If that makes me a bad Catholic, oh well, I will live with it. As will most women.

 

[St_Francis]

#1. I only have 2 pages. A post number would be more helpful.

Here you go:
Suppose I were a doctor. A young father of four, one handicapped and requiring a lot of care so the mother cannot work, comes to me and has a heart problem. He will die in a matter of weeks without a heart transplant.

His identical twin brother is also my patient and has a healthy heart. This guy is a convicted serial killer who is appealing the death penalty and a drunk and drug addict.

Now, God gave me the knowledge and medical ability to prevent the good twin’s death so he can support and raise his children.

Would it be right for me to kidnap the bad twin and transplant his heart?

#2. Neither you nor I.am a doctor

Are you sure about that? Just kidding… Maybe. Actually, I only did that for ease of the pronouns.

#3. I am a mother. If a doctor told me another pregnancy could cause me to die, I would have my tubes tied, Church teachings be dammed. A) God can overcome that as I would be happy with additional children, B) I want to see my existing children grow to adulthood, C) I want to live long enough to see my grand babies.

I am also a mother. I am also a Catholic. In that situation, I would abstain, because if all I had to do to save my life was to abstain from sex, then I’d be willing to make that sacrifice. and I would count myself blessed; a lot of women whose lives are threatened by bad health do not have such a simple option.

If that makes me a bad Catholic, oh well, I will live with it. As will most women.

You will live with it, but how will you die with it? This is the thing so many people seem to think, well, God will understand, or some other rationalization. They rely on God’s mercy while ignoring God’s justice.

 

[sallybutler]

Here you go:
Suppose I were a doctor. A young father of four, one handicapped and requiring a lot of care so the mother cannot work, comes to me and has a heart problem. He will die in a matter of weeks without a heart transplant.

His identical twin brother is also my patient and has a healthy heart. This guy is a convicted serial killer who is appealing the death penalty and a drunk and drug addict.

Now, God gave me the knowledge and medical ability to prevent the good twin’s death so he can support and raise his children.

Would it be right for me to kidnap the bad twin and transplant his heart?

Are you sure about that? Just kidding… Maybe. Actually, I only did that for ease of the pronouns.

I am also a mother. I am also a Catholic. In that situation, I would abstain, because if all I had to do to save my life was to abstain from sex, then I’d be willing to make that sacrifice. and I would count myself blessed; a lot of women whose lives are threatened by bad health do not have such a simple option.

You will live with it, but how will you die with it? This is the thing so many people seem to think, well, God will understand, or some other rationalization. They rely on God’s mercy while ignoring God’s justice.

Your husband has to be willing to abstain. You are forcing him to abide by your beliefs. Is he willing?

In a perfect world, men and women would abstain. Hormones mess this up.

Tell your husband you are not going to have sex with him for a year. Use health as reason. Contact me at the end of the year. How did you handle it? How did he handle it?

Been there, done that. Bet by the end of the year, you will feel unloved and not worthy of much. In my case, he thought he would die if he had sex (heart condition). Trust me, at the end the year, you will not be happier. This is why the Church promotes sexual intercourse within marriage as Holy.

 

[St_Francis]

Your husband has to be willing to abstain. You are forcing him to abide by your beliefs. Is he willing?

In a perfect world, men and women would abstain. Hormones mess this up.

Tell your husband you are not going to have sex with him for a year. Use health as reason. Contact me at the end of the year. How did you handle it? How did he handle it?

Been there, done that. Bet by the end of the year, you will feel unloved and not worthy of much. In my case, he thought he would die if he had sex (heart condition). Trust me, at the end the year, you will not be happier. This is why the Church promotes sexual intercourse within marriage as Holy.

I am sorry that you had these difficulties in your marriage.

 

[sallybutler]

I am sorry that you had these difficulties in your marriage.

How would you survive this in your marriage? How would you feel if your husband refused to have sexual relations with you? And in order to insure those activities weren’t an issue, he stopped kissing you, wouldn’t sleep in the same bed with you, etc? Especially if he ‘forgot’ to mention he was worried about his or your health?

Do you really think you would be responsive to your husband if every act could result in your death? If so, you are a better person than I could ever be.

 

[Wesrock]

Assuming that this Catholic hospital does not provide vasectomies along with tubal ligations, where is the sex discrimination?

I was under the impression that ABC is never morally licit within a Catholic moral framework.

If a drug has a licit medical need but causes the user to be infertile, the drug can be used and marital relations pursued normally. The issue is if the purpose is to cause infertility.

 

[St_Francis]

How would you survive this in your marriage? How would you feel if your husband refused to have sexual relations with you? And in order to insure those activities weren’t an issue, he stopped kissing you, wouldn’t sleep in the same bed with you, etc? Especially if he ‘forgot’ to mention he was worried about his or your health?

Do you really think you would be responsive to your husband if every act could result in your death? If so, you are a better person than I could ever be.

Sally,
I want to answer this seriously and fully, which I can’t do right now, so tomorrow afternoon or so, if all goes well.

Take care,
Annie

 

[sallybutler]

Sally,
I want to answer this seriously and fully, which I can’t do right now, so tomorrow afternoon or so, if all goes well.

Take care,
Annie

Thank you for taking time to think about it. Just to give you something to think about, I went for more than a year with out relations with my husband because he was afraid it would kill him (diabetes, congestive heart failure). Since he never bothered to mention his fears to me, I thought I was at fault.

 

[Paganus]

Church teachings be dammed…If that makes me a bad Catholic, oh well, I will live with it.

Okay, I am actually shocked by your post. Because, as a Catholic, I realize that when I toss aside the teachings of the One True Church, it’s not the Church that is being placed in potential danger of eternal damnation. Praying for you, sallybutler. Have a blessed day.

 

[sallybutler]

Okay, I am actually shocked by your post. Because, as a Catholic, I realize that when I toss aside the teachings of the One True Church, it’s not the Church that is being placed in potential danger of eternal damnation. Praying for you, sallybutler. Have a blessed day.

You would put future children before current children? You would put your husband’s wants before you children’s needs? If you could have a tubal ligation which could be reversed after the brain tumor was removed, are you saying the Church would tell you not to have the surgery?

Do you feel the same way about hysterectomies for women that have cervical cancer?
After all, it was just cervix? What about women who have ovarian cancer in only one overy? I just had a full hysterectomy. Does that make me a sinner incapable of redemption?

 

[RCinMT]

You would put future children before current children? You would put your husband’s wants before you children’s needs? If you could have a tubal ligation which could be reversed after the brain tumor was removed, are you saying the Church would tell you not to have the surgery?

Do you feel the same way about hysterectomies for women that have cervical cancer?
After all, it was just cervix? What about women who have ovarian cancer in only one overy? I just had a full hysterectomy. Does that make me a sinner incapable of redemption?

Maybe the Church would say don’t have sex. We’re not animals, we have free will.

 

[RCinMT]

Having used NFP for many years, you obviously know nothing about me. I also was never told that if I got pregnant, I would die and so would my child. I would do whatever it took to protect my current children, not future potential children. If that makes me a bad Catholic, so be it.

Sally, that’s still not an answer. Why would the person use ABC instead of NFP? You’re talking like ABC is significantly more efficacious than properly practiced NFP…it’s not.

You’re also arguing that somehow sex is more important than life. Unbelievable.