Adam and Eve sinned , but why should we all should we all suffer the consequences?

[BobCatholic]

Maybe the “punishment” is part of the cure, potentially formative more than reformative or punitative in nature.

God could have created Adam and Eve (and us too) PERFECT, rendering none of this suffering, forming, reforming, and punishment necessary.

But God didn’t do that.

Then he punishes people for their imperfections.

 

[grannymh]

Then why are we punished for no fault?

I didn’t say TEMPORARY. I said TEMPORAL. Not the same word.

Yes, temporal is the better word when one considers that Baptism removes the state of Original Sin and turns a person back to God. Or do I have a wrong meaning?

Regarding punishment and other points.

Where one may see a punishment, I see a golden opportunity to be in joy eternally.

And God refused to heal this human nature.

God heals our human nature with the Seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church.

Adam was created imperfectly. Depending on how the verse is interpreted, either Adam was cowardly, stupid, naieve or other imperfection. Thus he made a mistake because of his weakness or imperfection.

God should have made Adam and Eve perfect. That way they would never have fallen.

Yes, people do see imperfection. I cannot change that.

I can only offer that Adam and Eve were created perfect. Genesis 1: 27. What could possibly be more perfect than being created in the image of God?

 

[BobCatholic]

Yes, temporal is the better word when one considers that Baptism removes the state of Original Sin and turns a person back to God. Or do I have a wrong meaning?

That’s spiritual. That’s the effect of baptism on the immortal soul.

Temporal is the effect here in time. Baptism has not solved that. Shortly after baptism, we are not snatched away by angels and taken to the Garden of Eden, you’ll notice.

Where one may see a punishment, I see a golden opportunity to be in joy eternally.

And I see injustice. We are not supposed to be punished for the sins of Adam of Eve.

God heals our human nature with the Seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church.

Only in a spiritual way. The temporal way, we’re still not in the Garden of Eden.

Yes, people do see imperfection. I cannot change that.

God sees the imperfection.

I can only offer that Adam and Eve were created perfect. Genesis 1: 27. What could possibly be more perfect than being created in the image of God?

They were most definitely NOT created perfect. If they were perfect, they would have rejected the serpent and giving him a boot to the head.

They were either:

Naive - they accepted anything anyone told them without any brain activity

stupid - they fell for something idiotic a cunning snake told them.

proud - they rejected God

fearful - maybe the serpent was 50 feet tall and caused Adam to cringe in fear.

These are things called IMPERFECTIONS. Since perfectly created being does not have imperfections, Adam and Eve obviously were not created perfect.

And because they were imperfect, they were punished for their failure.

The Great Software Coder in the Sky wrote buggy software, and then is upset that the program does not run properly.

 

[fhansen]

God could have created Adam and Eve (and us too) PERFECT, rendering none of this suffering, forming, reforming, and punishment necessary.

But God didn’t do that.

Then he punishes people for their imperfections.

Maybe He simply couldn’t create another god, regardless of how great or nearly perfect He’s capable of making any particular being. Man’s perfection lies in acknowledging His perfection, in ceding the point and acknowledging our own lack of perfection, relative to His.

And, BTW, to the degree that we sin at all we haven’t fully acknowledged this fact; we’re agreeing with Adam, ourselves deserving of the consequences without reference to Adam’s sin.

 

[grannymh]

That’s spiritual. That’s the effect of baptism on the immortal soul.

Temporal is the effect here in time. Baptism has not solved that. Shortly after baptism, we are not snatched away by angels and taken to the Garden of Eden, you’ll notice.

Yes, the immortal soul is spiritual and it is real. Baptism involves outward signs of the action of cleansing and of being made new in God’s sanctifying grace.

As for returning to the Garden of Eden …

Returning to that place would be something like the movie “Groundhog Day” or whatever, when life kept repeating itself. I want the real thing. I want to be in the presence of the Beatific Vision. That garden is the opportunity to turn away from
God. No way.

Adam was created in the image of God. To remain in God’s friendship, Adam, the creature, had to live in free submission to God, his Creator.

God is perfect. There are no Adam gods who are perfect as the Creator.

There is only one God. A perfect Adam god could not exist. Therefore, if you wish to call Adam, the created person, imperfect, because Adam is not Thee God, that is your personal choice.

But please, it is necessary to be respectful toward God.

 

[BobCatholic]

Maybe He simply couldn’t create another god, regardless of how great or nearly perfect He’s capable of making any particular being.

You don’t have to be another god to be perfect. In heaven we will be perfect (as perfect as a created being can be). God could have created us that way in the first place.

Man’s perfection lies in acknowledging His perfection, in ceding the point and acknowledging our own lack of perfection, relative to His.

Lots of people in hell did that, and still were not perfect.

And, BTW, to the degree that we sin at all we haven’t fully acknowledged this fact; we’re agreeing with Adam, ourselves deserving of the consequences without reference to Adam’s sin.

If we were created perfect, we would not want to sin. A programmer who writes a buggy computer program on purpose should not be complaining that the program is not running properly.

 

[fhansen]

You don’t have to be another god to be perfect. In heaven we will be perfect (as perfect as a created being can be). God could have created us that way in the first place.

I don’t know about that. Perhaps a superior being is created who must endure some hardship, having his faith challenged, gruelingly at times, who literally knows good and evil in this world and ultimately opts for the good, who ultimately opts for God, the Good above all other goods.

Lots of people in hell did that, and still were not perfect.

I doubt anyone ended up in hell by giving up their pride and humbling themselves before Gods perfection.

If we were created perfect, we would not want to sin. A programmer who writes a buggy computer program on purpose should not be complaining that the program is not running properly.

If we were created in such a way that we *would not *sin, would we have any choice in the matter? What kind or level of perfection would we obtain if our wills were uninvolved in the matter of choosing good or evil, God or no God?

 

[BobCatholic]

Returning to that place would be something like the movie “Groundhog Day” or whatever, when life kept repeating itself. I want the real thing. I want to be in the presence of the Beatific Vision. That garden is the opportunity to turn away from
God. No way.

If the Garden of Eden is the opportunity to turn away from God, then so is heaven.

God is perfect. There are no Adam gods who are perfect as the Creator.

One does not have to be God to be perfect. We’ll be perfect in heaven, so why didn’t God create us perfect like that in the first place?

Therefore, if you wish to call Adam, the created person, imperfect, because Adam is not Thee God, that is your personal choice.

I don’t require Adam to be God. God is God. But God expects us to be perfect, remember?

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 5:48[/BIBLEDRB]

So why didn’t God create us perfect in the first place?

 

[BobCatholic]

If we were created in such a way that we *would not *sin, would we have any choice in the matter? What kind or level of perfection would we obtain if our wills were uninvolved in the matter of choosing good or evil, God or no God?

If one is imperfect and sins because of that imperfection, then how did their free will NOT be reduced or even eliminated?

An alcoholic gets drunk. Did he really have full free will or was it reduced or eliminated?

God wrote a buggy program - me - and I fail - and thus he is upset that I don’t run properly.

 

[fhansen]

If one is imperfect and sins because of that imperfection, then how did their free will NOT be reduced or even eliminated?

An alcoholic gets drunk. Did he really have full free will or was it reduced or eliminated?

God wrote a buggy program - me - and I fail - and thus he is upset that I don’t run properly.

He created Adam with a perfection proper to and according to his own nature, as He did with all creation. Adam was “sufficiently perfect” in His knowledge and capabilities to have chosen correctly. In many ways we have an advantage over Adam now: more time, more experience, more grace, more revelation of God’s nature, love, and will, most especially and definitively via the Advent of Jesus Christ.

Adam represented all of humanity. We are all of humanity now, being saved/perfected both individually and corporately. The journey of man from Adam to now has been a collective experience. God deemed that creation would be worth it, even with the warts and all that would arise later. I happen to agree.

Our job now is to humble ourselves before God, recognizing His existence, goodness, trustworthiness, and love. Or we can harden ourselves. Those are the options this life poses to us.

 

[BobCatholic]

He created Adam with a perfection proper to and according to his own nature, as He did with all creation. Adam was “sufficiently perfect” in His knowledge and capabilities to have chosen correctly. In many ways we have an advantage over Adam now: more time, more experience, more grace, more revelation of God’s nature, love, and will, most especially and definitively via the Advent of Jesus Christ.

They were most definitely NOT created perfect. If they were perfect, they would have rejected the serpent and giving him a boot to the head.

They were either:

Naive - they accepted anything the serpent told them without any brain activity

stupid - they fell for something idiotic a cunning snake told them.

proud - they rejected God

fearful - maybe the serpent was 50 feet tall and caused Adam to cringe in fear.

These are things called IMPERFECTIONS. Since perfectly created being does not have imperfections, Adam and Eve obviously were not created perfect.

And because they were imperfect, they were punished for their failure.

Our job now is to humble ourselves before God, recognizing His existence, goodness, trustworthiness, and love. Or we can harden ourselves. Those are the options this life poses to us.

I accept his existence and goodness.

If someone doesn’t want to help, how can I trust them in that area?

I trust God in every place except one - the one area in my life where he refuses to help me.

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

Why should we suffer the consequences of Adam and Eve’s sin?

That I cannot answer, but one thing I can say is, “have you ever in your life committed a sin?”

If so, that was probably the reason.

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

They were most definitely NOT created perfect. If they were perfect, they would have rejected the serpent and giving him a boot to the head.

They were either:

Naive - they accepted anything the serpent told them without any brain activity

stupid - they fell for something idiotic a cunning snake told them.

proud - they rejected God

fearful - maybe the serpent was 50 feet tall and caused Adam to cringe in fear.

These are things called IMPERFECTIONS. Since perfectly created being does not have imperfections, Adam and Eve obviously were not created perfect.

And because they were imperfect, they were punished for their failure.

I accept his existence and goodness.

If someone doesn’t want to help, how can I trust them in that area?

I trust God in every place except one - the one area in my life where he refuses to help me.

Adam and Eve…in my opinion, were created good.

Everything God created, in the book of Genesis, was good…was it not?

Adam and Eve were technically like…little children.

They disobeyed the Father, and the punishment came down on…well…not just them. The whole class is being reprimanded for their choices.

 

[BobCatholic]

That I cannot answer, but one thing I can say is, “have you ever in your life committed a sin?”

If I were created perfect, I wouldn’t want to sin and thus wouldn’t sin.

Adam and Eve…in my opinion, were created good.

Everything God created, in the book of Genesis, was good…was it not?

They were good. But still imperfect.

Adam and Eve were technically like…little children.

With the resulting imperfections.

They disobeyed the Father, and the punishment came down on…well…not just them. The whole class is being reprimanded for their choices.

and that violates Deuteronomy 24 - punishing the sons for the sins of the father.

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

Now were Adam and Eve perfect?

I believe in the very beginning, that they were.

Before the conversation with the serpent and Eve passing it’s word to Adam.

We have that kind of thing going on continuously, even nowadays.

 

[BobCatholic]

Now were Adam and Eve perfect?

I believe in the very beginning, that they were.

They were not perfect.

They were either:

Naive - they accepted anything the serpent told them without any brain activity

stupid - they fell for something idiotic a cunning snake told them.

proud - they rejected God

fearful - maybe the serpent was 50 feet tall and caused Adam to cringe in fear.

These are things called IMPERFECTIONS. Since perfectly created being does not have imperfections, Adam and Eve obviously were not created perfect.

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

They were not perfect.

They were either:

Naive - they accepted anything the serpent told them without any brain activity

stupid - they fell for something idiotic a cunning snake told them.

proud - they rejected God

fearful - maybe the serpent was 50 feet tall and caused Adam to cringe in fear.

These are things called IMPERFECTIONS. Since perfectly created being does not have imperfections, Adam and Eve obviously were not created perfect.

They were perfect.

They were made in the image of God, and knew no sin…

 

[BobCatholic]

They were perfect.

They were made in the image of God, and knew no sin…

So naivete, fear, stupidity, or pride are not imperfections? That’s an interesting belief.

Please explain who someone who is perfect has imperfections? This doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

So naivete, fear, stupidity, or pride are not imperfections? That’s an interesting belief.

Please explain who someone who is perfect has imperfections? This doesn’t make sense to me.

They were kids!

How many kids do you know do every last thing that they are instructed to do by their parents?

 

[BobCatholic]

They were kids!

How many kids do you know do every last thing that they are instructed to do by their parents?

And how many parents give their children the equivalent of a felony for their first infraction?

And not just any felony, a death penalty one?

“They were kids” - that’s even MORE reason to let them stay in the Garden of Eden. What kind of parent kicks their kids out of home after one infraction? THAT is HARSH!