Adam and Eve sinned , but why should we all should we all suffer the consequences?

[Aaron_Creagh]

Sin is what truly made Adam and Eve imperfect.

One other thing just came to my mind.

Sin came after the conversation with the serpent. The conversation with the serpent involved Disobedience to God, self serving attitudes and probably other things as well.

After the first sin, Adam and Eve seemingly lost their childish innocence.

 

[grannymh]

Sin is what truly made Adam and Eve imperfect.

One other thing just came to my mind.

Sin came after the conversation with the serpent. The conversation with the serpent involved Disobedience to God, self serving attitudes and probably other things as well.

After the first sin, Adam and Eve seemingly lost their childish innocence.

May I respectfully ask if by perfect, you mean that Adam was without sin before he freely chose to abandon the requirements of his creaturely status? Please note that I have referred to the requirements of his creaturely status.

I have been seeing some errors on this and similar threads, often made by some Catholics. For example, one error is that somehow Adam was in the state of childish innocence, not knowing about good and evil. Another error is the avoidance of Adam’s status.

Regarding your comment.
“Sin came after the conversation with the serpent. The conversation with the serpent involved Disobedience to God, self serving attitudes and probably other things as well.”

Catholicism goes into those “other things”.
For example, Catholicism verifies St. Paul’s teaching on the reality of Jesus’ connection with Adam. Romans 5:12-21. In addition, Catholicism includes the state of Adam’s soul before he yielded to temptation. Genesis 1: 27. After the Fall, the state of Adam’s soul changed. Genesis 3: 23. Unfortunately, one does not hear much about Adam’s soul.

Obviously, the original status of Adam’s nature before the Fall would include his soul in its possible perfection before he was a citizen of heaven. (possible is the operative word)

Please allow me to change my opening question to:

What all do you include when describing Adam without sin, that is, before the Fall?

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

May I respectfully ask if by perfect, you mean that Adam was without sin before he freely chose to abandon the requirements of his creaturely status? Please note that I have referred to the requirements of his creaturely status.

I have been seeing some errors on this and similar threads, often made by some Catholics. For example, one error is that somehow Adam was in the state of childish innocence, not knowing about good and evil. Another error is the avoidance of Adam’s status.

Regarding your comment.
“Sin came after the conversation with the serpent. The conversation with the serpent involved Disobedience to God, self serving attitudes and probably other things as well.”

Catholicism goes into those “other things”.
For example, Catholicism verifies St. Paul’s teaching on the reality of Jesus’ connection with Adam. Romans 5:12-21. In addition, Catholicism includes the state of Adam’s soul before he yielded to temptation. Genesis 1: 27. After the Fall, the state of Adam’s soul changed. Genesis 3: 23. Unfortunately, one does not hear much about Adam’s soul.

Obviously, the original status of Adam’s nature before the Fall would include his soul in its possible perfection before he was a citizen of heaven. (possible is the operative word)

Please allow me to change my opening question to:

What all do you include when describing Adam without sin, that is, before the Fall?

Before the fall of man, Adam was a creature, created in the image of God.

Now, does that necessarily mean that he was automatically perfect?

That is slightly tricky.

I would say that Adam, in the beginning, may have been able to be listed as part of the animal kingdom.

I thank God for changing that for all of us.

 

[BobCatholic]

Sin made Adam and Eve imperfect.

and that’s all I have to say about that.

God created Adam and Eve imperfect.

Sin made them MORE imperfect.

And Disobedience requires pride, which is an imperfection. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would have dismissed the serpent’s idiocy.

 

[fhansen]

God created Adam and Eve imperfect.

Sin made them MORE imperfect.

And Disobedience requires pride, which is an imperfection. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would have dismissed the serpent’s idiocy.

I don’t think that it’s possible for any being-except God-to possess free will and be guaranteed to always make the perfect choice. Such a guarantee would necessarily oppose free will, in fact.

 

[BobCatholic]

I don’t think that it’s possible for any being-except God-to possess free will and be guaranteed to always make the perfect choice. Such a guarantee would necessarily oppose free will, in fact.

If we have no choice but to sin, then why are we punished?

God the Great Developer in the Sky writes buggy programs and then punishes them for crashing?

 

[fhansen]

If we have no choice but to sin, then why are we punished?

God the Great Developer in the Sky writes buggy programs and then punishes them for crashing?

I didn’t say we had no choice; I affirmed the opposite, in fact. Only if we’re ensured by God to never make a wrong choice, to never sin, IOW, would our free will be compromised.

 

[grannymh]

If we have no choice but to sin, then why are we punished?

God the Great Developer in the Sky writes buggy programs and then punishes them for crashing?

Please treat God with respect…even when you disagree. An ad hominem argument is a known fallacy.

 

[BobCatholic]

Please treat God with respect…even when you disagree. An ad hominem argument is a known fallacy.

I’m treating God with respect. He knows how to write quality software. Look at Momma Mary. Look at all the saints.

He chose not to do so with me.

 

[grannymh]

I’m treating God with respect. He knows how to write quality software. Look at Momma Mary. Look at all the saints.

He chose not to do so with me.

What about the saints who were tortured to death? Is their existence a reason for describing God as the Great Developer in the Sky who writes buggy programs and then punishes them for crashing? Of course not.

And what is meant by quality software? Humans definitely have quality. The Catholic Church, not some mega company, teaches that a human person, not some software program, is loved by God the Creator – a Real Creator Who is extremely different from some kind of Great Developer in the Sky.

Perhaps, it would be best to skip the failed symbolism and start over with a realistic view of humans, sinners and saints. Humans are called to eternal joy as they share in God’s life on earth and in heaven. Being in the image of God, the human being possess the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone.

Jesus hung bleeding on a cross for each and every human person, you and me.

 

[Ridgerunner]

We all suffer the consequences because we do the same thing Adam and Eve did.

If we were all fully accepting of God’s will, would we even consider what we go through 'suffering"?

 

[grannymh]

We all suffer the consequences because we do the same thing Adam and Eve did.

If we were all fully accepting of God’s will, would we even consider what we go through 'suffering"?

We suffer the consequences of the one and only Original Sin because the whole human race was in Adam “as one body of one man.”

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 404-405.

 

[fhansen]

Now take this parable to temporal life: I cannot commit suicide. I have to figure out how to survive until I die. Yes, God took care of the spiritual part (the mansion and paradise) but I still got to figure out how to survive without being able to raise money or have a career.

I don’t know what situation you’re facing Bob, and to be honest I don’t know if I’d react any differently than yourself, but in any case it appears that you’ve drawn a line in the sand that you’re requiring God to step over, and, if He won’t come over to your side and to your way of seeing things, He cannot be trusted as doing His job. But we just don’t make the rules-and that may be the most important lesson to learn.

 

[Ridgerunner]

We suffer the consequences of the one and only Original Sin because the whole human race was in Adam “as one body of one man.”

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 404-405.

Good enough. Still, it does not really define what the sin was, other than that it was a desire to “know good and evil”, which we all do, perhaps because we have free will. We do not know why, exactly, Adam and Eve did not sin before they did or why they were capable of sinning (and thus having consequences) even before their sin. If they didn’t have the capacity, they couldn’t have done it.

 

[fhansen]

Good enough. Still, it does not really define what the sin was, other than that it was a desire to “know good and evil”, which we all do, perhaps because we have free will. We do not know why, exactly, Adam and Eve did not sin before they did or why they were capable of sinning (and thus having consequences) even before their sin. If they didn’t have the capacity, they couldn’t have done it.

The sin, itself, was simply disobedience of God. Their capacity to sin-or culpability for sinning- depended on their possession of free will combined with their knowledge of God’s will.

 

[grannymh]

Good enough. Still, it does not really define what the sin was, other than that it was a desire to “know good and evil”, which we all do, perhaps because we have free will. We do not know why, exactly, Adam and Eve did not sin before they did or why they were capable of sinning (and thus having consequences) even before their sin. If they didn’t have the capacity, they couldn’t have done it.

Adam had a rational, spiritual soul with intellect and will.

The opportunity to be like a god knowing all things from good to evil was Satan’s temptation. The universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition explains Original Sin in paragraphs 396-409. CCC 396 explains the tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Adam chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. As a creature, the only way Adam could live in friendship with God (state of sanctifying grace) was to live in free submission to his Creator. In other words, Adam needed to choose obedience to God. Adam scorned his Creator and abusing his freedom, he disobeyed God’s command. This act shattered the relationship between humanity and divinity.

 

[Aloysium]

I’m treating God with respect. He knows how to write quality software. Look at Momma Mary. Look at all the saints.

He chose not to do so with me.

Your existence demonstrates that He knows far more than “how to write quality software.”
Wherever did you get the idea that He did not do so?
I don’t mean this superficially; seriously dude, you are amazing!

 

[BobCatholic]

What about the saints who were tortured to death?

And God loves them more than me, and that’s fine, they’re better than me.

And what is meant by quality software?

God creating people perfect. I think you took my comparison and stretched the metaphor too far.

My question was: Why didn’t God create us perfect so we can please him (and know it is only because of him we can please him, because that’s part of perfection)

Perhaps, it would be best to skip the failed symbolism and start over with a realistic view of humans, sinners and saints.

We’re created imperfect and need God’s help to become perfect. That is, if it is God’s will. And only if God’s will.

Jesus hung bleeding on a cross for each and every human person, you and me.

And he took care of the spiritual. The temporal…we’re still not in the Garden of Eden. So he didn’t take care of that.

We all suffer the consequences because we do the same thing Adam and Eve did.

If we were all fully accepting of God’s will, would we even consider what we go through 'suffering"?

I was never in the Garden of Eden. If I were, I promise I would never touch that tree. And if you want, I’d use a stick to beat snakes into the ground if they try talking to me.

it appears that you’ve drawn a line in the sand that you’re requiring God to step over,

You mean that God should tell me what his will is? Or help me get out of the vicious circle I’m in?

So it is fair for God to hold me to a standard he won’t tell me what it is. Then punish me when I don’t do the thing.

Also, what about having a relationship with God? I’d like to have one. But hard to do so when he won’t talk to me. Prayer is not supposed to be a monologue, but a conversation.

Which one of these things crossed the line into evil if this is something I’d like from God?

 

[grannymh]

My question was: Why didn’t God create us perfect so we can please him (and know it is only because of him we can please him, because that’s part of perfection)

Going to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass on Sunday in addition to the Sacrament of Reconciliation is an excellent way of getting rid of the compulsive “perfect”.
Instead of looking backward, look forward to being in the presence of the Beatific Vision.

Forget the hang up on the word “perfect” and you will soon realize that you can please God in your obedience to Him. You have a rational soul with intellective powers and a will which makes it possible to personally choose obedience. You are not a resident of a zoo.

 

[BobCatholic]

Going to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass on Sunday in addition to the Sacrament of Reconciliation is an excellent way of getting rid of the compulsive “perfect”.
Instead of looking backward, look forward to being in the presence of the Beatific Vision.

Forget the hang up on the word “perfect” and you will soon realize that you can please God in your obedience to Him. You have a rational soul with intellective powers and a will which makes it possible to personally choose obedience. You are not a resident of a zoo.

I have to be perfect. God requires it.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 5:48[/BIBLEDRB]

This is not a compulsion. This is a command from the Lord.