Adam and Eve

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brierpatch1974

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I hope my questions come out clear but its kinda confusing myself thinking about it lol. But here goes…

If Adam and Eve where the first two humans created does it mean they where the only two “created” the same way. Could there have been others created like them at a later date?

And if they where the only two created then wouldn’t this prove God also created the process of evolution? I don’t mean the theory of man came from monkeys. But that people did evolve do to their enviroments. How else could we have the differant races of man? Skin color for example and other physical differances.

I hope this is clear and you understand what I am trying to ask. Thanks again for all the help. Everyone has been very patient and understanding with the many questions I have. lol And I promise there will be many mroe to come as I conitue to search and learn:)

BP
 
brierpatch1974;3933811If Adam and Eve where the first two humans created does it mean they where the only two “created” the same way. Could there have been others created like them at a later date? said:
A Catholic must hold two things regarding creation:

God created everything that is from nothing-- ex nihilo
God specially creates each human soul

Regarding our first parents, monogenesis is required belief. Catholics may not hold the belief in multiple sets of “first parents”, polygenesis.

See the encyclical of Pope Pius XII-- Humani Generis.
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1ke said:
Regarding our first parents, monogenesis is required belief. Catholics may not hold the belief in multiple sets of “first parents”, polygenesis.

See the encyclical of Pope Pius XII-- Humani Generis.
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Whatever the encyclical and the Church say, the facts are that the population of existing humans does not derive from just two parents. So how does one force oneself to believe in something that is plainly not so?

Alec
evolutionpages.com/Mitochondrial%20Eve.htm
 
hecd2 said:
the facts are that the population of existing humans does not derive from just two parents.
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There is no “fact” supporting this. There are many competing theories.
hecd2 said:
So how does one force oneself to believe in something that is plainly not so?
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There is no need to “force” oneself to believe what the Church teaches. The Church cannot err regarding faith and morals.
 
1ke said:
There is no “fact” supporting this. There are many competing theories.
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Really? So let’s have a reference to the respectable scientific theory that supports the idea that the entire extant human population derives from just two parents. I won’t hold my breath.

The facts are common alleles in highly polymorphic loci in human and chimpanzee which exclude the possibility that humans derive from just two parents - would you like me to provide references to these facts?
There is no need to “force” oneself to believe what the Church teaches. The Church cannot err regarding faith and morals.
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Well, some would say that this is not a question of faith or morals. But whether it is or not, the Church is clearly wrong about this, your belief in Her inerrancy notwithstanding.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
1ke said:
The Church cannot be wrong.
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She has been wrong about many things and she is wrong about this. You seem to have created a new cult for the infallibility of the Church as defined by a papal encyclical (which infallibility, by the way, is not claimed by the Church Herself). Anyone with the least superficial knowledge of history can point to things that the Church (as represented by the opinions and teaching of a pope) has been wrong about. This is one of them. The Church makes pronouncements about matters that impinge on science (ie matters that can be settled be reference to physical evidence) at Her peril. You would think that She would have learned better by now.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
The Church and Pope Benedict already know we don’t go back biologically to two people, but to a population of early humans. Although the Catechism itself is certainly not very clear on this point (it uses the simple traditional language of “our first parents” and equates those with two people “Adam and Eve”), the International Theological Commission concedes the science:

“While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.” (From ITC statement "Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God", published July 2004)

Cardinal Schonborn also concedes mainstream science for human evolution in his book Chance or Purpose (Ignatius Press, 2007) and Pope Benedict XVI in his student circle book Creation and Evolution (Ignatius Press, 2008).

There can be theological monogenism with physical or biological polygenism according to "The Credo of Paul VI: Theology of Original Sin and the Scientific Theory of Evolution" by Fr. Roberto Masi in the Vatican newpaper for 17 April 1969.

Difficult to reconcile “traditional Catholic [or Christian] dogma” with science, and the new book by Giberson Saving Darwin: How to be a Christian and Believe in Evolution (HarperOne, 2008) doesn’t answer this well enough. I’m looking for Lamoureux’s book, maybe he will address this. Two other attempts are Origin of the Human Species by Bonnette (Catholic philosopher), and Adam, Apes, and Anthropology self-published by Glenn Morton (former young-earther, oil geologist). You can look these up online.

Phil P
 
Sigh. If God could create the entire universe out of nothing, and if God could make human beings with souls, do you really think that God could not mutate the children of Adam and Eve to have different alleles?

Or if Adam and Eve’s children were marrying Neanderthals or aliens or what have you, how would this change Adam and Eve being the first true human beings, or make them not the parents of all living humans?

I could go on, but I see no point. It’s sad, but most people lack the imagination and the inquiring scientific mind to come to grips with all the possibilities. It’s a lot faster to assume that the Church is wrong. But if a comicbook or Battlestar Galactica sets up a universe with certain absolutes, they are perfectly willing to figure out how seeming inconsistencies could really be consistent. Heh.
 
PhilVaz said:
The Church and Pope Benedict already know we don’t go back biologically to two people, but to a population of early humans. Although the Catechism itself is certainly not very clear on this point (it uses the simple traditional language of “our first parents” and equates those with two people “Adam and Eve”), the International Theological Commission concedes the science:

“While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.” (From ITC statement "Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God", published July 2004)

Cardinal Schonborn also concedes mainstream science for human evolution in his book Chance or Purpose (Ignatius Press, 2007) and Pope Benedict XVI in his student circle book Creation and Evolution (Ignatius Press, 2008).

There can be theological monogenism with physical or biological polygenism according to "The Credo of Paul VI: Theology of Original Sin and the Scientific Theory of Evolution" by Fr. Roberto Masi in the Vatican newpaper for 17 April 1969.

Difficult to reconcile “traditional Catholic [or Christian] dogma” with science, and the new book by Giberson Saving Darwin: How to be a Christian and Believe in Evolution (HarperOne, 2008) doesn’t answer this well enough. I’m looking for Lamoureux’s book, maybe he will address this. Two other attempts are Origin of the Human Species by Bonnette (Catholic philosopher), and Adam, Apes, and Anthropology self-published by Glenn Morton (former young-earther, oil geologist). You can look these up online.

Phil P
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Phil, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I’m not sure this will get much acceptance from our literal friends.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
PhilVaz said:
The Church and Pope Benedict already know we don’t go back biologically to two people, but to a population of early humans. Although the Catechism itself is certainly not very clear on this point (it uses the simple traditional language of “our first parents” and equates those with two people “Adam and Eve”), the International Theological Commission concedes the science:

“While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.” (From ITC statement "Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God", published July 2004)

Cardinal Schonborn also concedes mainstream science for human evolution in his book Chance or Purpose (Ignatius Press, 2007) and Pope Benedict XVI in his student circle book Creation and Evolution (Ignatius Press, 2008).

There can be theological monogenism with physical or biological polygenism according to "The Credo of Paul VI: Theology of Original Sin and the Scientific Theory of Evolution" by Fr. Roberto Masi in the Vatican newpaper for 17 April 1969.

Difficult to reconcile “traditional Catholic [or Christian] dogma” with science, and the new book by Giberson Saving Darwin: How to be a Christian and Believe in Evolution (HarperOne, 2008) doesn’t answer this well enough. I’m looking for Lamoureux’s book, maybe he will address this. Two other attempts are Origin of the Human Species by Bonnette (Catholic philosopher), and Adam, Apes, and Anthropology self-published by Glenn Morton (former young-earther, oil geologist). You can look these up online.

Phil P
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I’m very grateful to hear this (or read it, in this case). But the greater question in my own personal case is the “when” of Adam and Eve.
 
Mintaka said:
Sigh. If God could create the entire universe out of nothing, and if God could make human beings with souls, do you really think that God could not mutate the children of Adam and Eve to have different alleles?

Or if Adam and Eve’s children were marrying Neanderthals or aliens or what have you, how would this change Adam and Eve being the first true human beings, or make them not the parents of all living humans?

I could go on, but I see no point. It’s sad, but most people lack the imagination and the inquiring scientific mind to come to grips with all the possibilities. It’s a lot faster to assume that the Church is wrong. But if a comicbook or Battlestar Galactica sets up a universe with certain absolutes, they are perfectly willing to figure out how seeming inconsistencies could really be consistent. Heh.
Click to expand...
Yeah, God can create the universe, but He cannot perform miracles, or even specially create Adam and Eve. Hmmmmmmmm!:hmmm:
 
Mintaka said:
Sigh. If God could create the entire universe out of nothing, and if God could make human beings with souls, do you really think that God could not mutate the children of Adam and Eve to have different alleles?
Click to expand...
So your hypothesis is that not only did God create the first humans in Adam and Eve, but that He also miraculously mutated the genomes of their offspring to make it appear that they arose from a population with a bottleneck of 10,000 individuals. Well, I can’t argue against that.

But then I can’t argue against the proposition that God created the universe last Tuesday at 3.23 pm, with all of us in it and a complete memory of our past non-existent lives, a complete fossil record and “light in transit” from stars 12 billion light years away.

I think I’d rather rely on the evidence - succumbing to belief in arbitrary miracle making is not a good way to discern reality.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
hecd2 said:
So your hypothesis is that not only did God create the first humans in Adam and Eve, but that He also miraculously mutated the genomes of their offspring to make it appear that they arose from a population with a bottleneck of 10,000 individuals. Well, I can’t argue against that.

But then I can’t argue against the proposition that God created the universe last Tuesday at 3.23 pm, with all of us in it and a complete memory of our past non-existent lives, a complete fossil record and “light in transit” from stars 12 billion light years away.

I think I’d rather rely on the evidence - succumbing to belief in arbitrary miracle making is not a good way to discern reality.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Click to expand...
You have a strong faith!
 
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