Adam and Eve

[ckempston]

Adam and Eve did eventually die, but originally they were not intended to.

God did not want man (after man sinned and pulled away from God) to live forever.

Physical death was on earth before the fall. Unless one thinks, like many young-earth-creationists, that the devil put all those dinosaur bones in the ground to deceive us.

The fall resulted in spiritual corruption, and certainly the effects were widespread. The ONE effect under contention is that every human shares in Adam’s guilt. A boy who comes from an abusive household may be more likely to abuse his own family when he grows up, but he does not share in the guilt of that sin until he does it himself. That is the point of contention. Babies are not born in sin and separated from God because of “Original Sin.”

 

[Barbkw]

Physical death was on earth before the fall. Unless one thinks, like many young-earth-creationists, that the devil put all those dinosaur bones in the ground to deceive us.

The fall resulted in spiritual corruption, and certainly the effects were widespread. The ONE effect under contention is that every human shares in Adam’s guilt. A boy who comes from an abusive household may be more likely to abuse his own family when he grows up, but he does not share in the guilt of that sin until he does it himself. That is the point of contention. Babies are not born in sin and separated from God because of “Original Sin.”

So far, scientific records indicate that humans weren’t created during the age of the dinosaurs.

Original sin produced physical death for humanity. It immediately disconnected humanity from a personal connection to God (Adam and Eve experienced an absence from God that left them “feeling” naked).

Althou naked, they continued to blame each other and God. They were not humbled by their sin, nor did not repent from their actions.

Their “original sin” affected all of humanity. They screwed up, they raised children who continued to screw up.

In humility, we acknowledge their mistake. We acknowledge the importance of being connected to God throughout our lives.

Infant baptism is conducted in the Catholic Church for the benefit of the Church body and for grace to fill the family (the domestic Church). Both to raise the child connected to Christ and to discern where evil can penetrate a family.

 

[davidv]

Physical death was on earth before the fall. Unless one thinks, like many young-earth-creationists, that the devil put all those dinosaur bones in the ground to deceive us.

The fall resulted in spiritual corruption, and certainly the effects were widespread.

It also brought about phyical corruption.

Gen 3:16
To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, …17 And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, `You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you;

The ONE effect under contention is that every human shares in Adam’s guilt.

This is not under contention. The Church does not teach the we inherit the quilt of Adam.

A boy who comes from an abusive household may be more likely to abuse his own family when he grows up, but he does not share in the guilt of that sin until he does it himself. That is the point of contention. Babies are not born in sin and separated from God because of “Original Sin.”

Original sin is a disorder, a separation from God, that is remedied with baptism. Babies have no personal guilt, yet they are suffer the effects of Adam’s sin.

 

[ckempston]

So far, scientific records indicate that humans weren’t created during the age of the dinosaurs.

Sorry, maybe I was unclear because that’s not at all what I was saying, unless you’re intentionally misunderstanding me. The point is that physical death was not introduced to the world by Adam’s sin.

Original sin produced physical death for humanity. It immediately disconnected humanity from a personal connection to God (Adam and Eve experienced an absence from God that left them “feeling” naked).

No, it could not have. God said:

Genesis 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (NASB).

Did Adam die, physically, that day? No, he died spiritually. Were there other consequences, such as corruption, etc.? Yes, I’m not denying that. The point is, when we sin, we die spiritually - we are separated from God.

Althou naked, they continued to blame each other and God. They were not humbled by their sin, nor did not repent from their actions.

Their “original sin” affected all of humanity. They screwed up, they raised children who continued to screw up.

They raised one child, in particular, who screwed up royally. The other was righteous according to Jesus himself - Matt 23:35. Not much is said about Seth.

In humility, we acknowledge their mistake. We acknowledge the importance of being connected to God throughout our lives.

Infant baptism is conducted in the Catholic Church for the benefit of the Church body and for grace to fill the family (the domestic Church). Both to raise the child connected to Christ and to discern where evil can penetrate a family.

Ok.

 

[ckempston]

It also brought about phyical corruption.

This is not under contention. The Church does not teach the we inherit the quilt of Adam.

Original sin is a disorder, a separation from God, that is remedied with baptism. Babies have no personal guilt, yet they are suffer the effects of Adam’s sin.

Then what you are saying is that the soul who has not sinned is the one that dies. This is precisely what you are saying. God says he does not operate in this way. We certainly experience temporal consequences for Adam’s sin, but we are not separated from God until we personally sin.

 

[Barbkw]

“Genesis 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (NASB). Did Adam die, physically, that day? No, he died spiritually.”

Your interpretation is too “fundamental”

Adam and Eve did die physically, years later. As God warned them that they would.

They separated themselves spiritually from God. They also physically separated from God’s protection.

 

[Barbkw]

Perhaps this website will help explain the Catholic Rite of Baptism:

parishofstluke.net/sacraments/baptism/rite/index.htm

Words of the priest celebrant:

Celebrant: You have asked to have your child baptised. In doing so you are accepting the responsibility of training him (her) in the practise of the faith. It will be your duty to bring him (her) up to keep God’s commandments as Christ taught us, by loving God and our neighbour. Do you clearly understand what you are undertaking?

Celbrant: Are you ready to help the parents of this child in their duty as Christian parents?

Celebrant: N., the Christian community welcomes you with great joy. In its name I claim you for Christ our Saviour by the sign of the cross. I now trace the cross on your forehead, and invite your parents (and godparents) to do the same.

Celebrant: A Reading from the Holy Gospel according to John (3:1-6)

Celebrant: My brothers and sisters, let us ask our Lord Jesus Christ to look lovingly on this child who is to be baptized, on his (her) parents and godparents, and on all the baptized.

#1: By the mystery of your death and resurrection, bathe this child in light, give him (her) the new life of baptism and welcome him (her) into your holy Church. Lord hear us.

Prayer of Exorcism and Anointing Before Baptism

Celebrant: We anoint you with the oil of salvation in the name of Christ our Saviour; may he strengthen you with his power, who lives and reigns for ever and ever.

Blessing and Invocation of God over Baptismal Water

Celebrant: Father, you give us grace through sacramental signs, which tells us the wonders of your unseen power.

In Baptism we use your gift of water, which you have made a rich symbol of the grace you give us in this sacrament.

At the very dawn of creation your Spirit breathed on the waters, making them the wellspring of all holiness.

The waters of the great flood you made a sign of the waters of Baptism, that make an end of sin and a new beginning of goodness.

Through the waters of the Red Sea you led Israel out of slavery, to be an image of God’s holy people, set free from sin by Baptism. In the waters of the Jordan your Son was baptized by John and anointed with the Spirit. Your Son willed that water and blood should flow from his side as he hung upon the cross. After his resurrection he told his disciples: “Go out and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” Father, look now with love upon your Church, and unseal for her the fountain of Baptism. By the power of the Spirit give to the water of this font the grace of your Son. You created man in your own likeness: cleanse him from sin in a new birth to innocence by water and the Spirit.

The celebrant touches the water with his right hand and continues:

Celebrant: We ask you, Father, with your Son to send the Holy Spirit upon the water of this font. May all who are buried with Christ in the death of Baptism rise also with him to newness of life. (We ask this) through Christ our Lord.

Renunciation of Sin and Profession of Faith.

Celebrant: Dear parents and godparents: You have come here to present this child for baptism. By water and the Holy Spirit he (she) is to receive the gift of new life from God, who is love.

On your part, you must make it your constant care to bring him (her) up in the faith. See that the divine life which God gives him (her) is kept safe from poison of sin, to grow always stronger in his (her) heart.

If your faith makes you ready to accept this responsibility, renew now the vows of your baptism. Reject sin; profess your faith in Christ Jesus. This is the faith of the Church. This is the faith in which this child is about to be baptised.

 

[Barbkw]

The celebrant questions the parents and godparents.

Celebrant: Do you reject Satan?

Parents & Godparents: I do.

Celebrant: And all his works?

Parents & Godparents: I do.

Celebrant: And all his empty promises?

Parents & Godparents: I do.

Next the celebrant asks for the threefold profession of faith from the parents and godparents.

Celebrant: Do you believe in the God the Father, almighty, creator of heaven and earth?

Parents & Godparents: I do.

Celebrant: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?

Parents & Godparents: I do.

Celebrant: Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

Parents & Godparents: I do.

The celebrant and the congregation give their assent to this profession of faith:

Celebrant: This is our faith. This is the faith of the Church, we are proud to profess it, in Christ Jesus our Lord.

All: Amen.

Baptism

The celebrant invites the family to the font and questions the parents and godparents:

Celebrant: Is it your will that N. be baptised in the faith of the Church, which we have all professed with you?

Parents: It is.

He baptises the child, saying:

Celebrant: N., I BAPTISE YOU IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER

He immerses the child or pours water upon it.

Celebrant: AND OF THE SON

He immerses the child or pours water upon it a second time.

Celebrant: AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

He immerses the child or pours water upon it a third time.

After the child is baptised, it is appropriate for the people to sing a short acclamation:

This is the fountain of life, water made holy by the suffering of Christ, washing all the world.
You who are washed in this water have hope of heaven’s kingdom.

Anointing After Baptism

Celebrant: God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has freed you from sin, given you a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and welcomed you into his holy people. He now anoints you with the chrism of salvation. As Christ was anointed Priest, Prophet, and King, so may you live always as members of his body, sharing everlasting life.

All: Amen.

Then the celebrant anoints the child on the crown of the head with the sacred chrism, in silence.

Clothing with the White Garment

Celebrant: N., you have become a new creation, and have clothed yourself in Christ. See in this white garment the outward sign of your Christian dignity. With your family and friends to help you by word and example, bring that dignity unstained into the everlasting life of heaven.

All: Amen.

The white garment is put on the child. A different colour is not permitted unless demanded by local custom. It is desirable that the family provide the garment.

 

[ckempston]

“Genesis 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (NASB). Did Adam die, physically, that day? No, he died spiritually.”

Your interpretation is too “fundamental”

Adam and Eve did die physically, years later. As God warned them that they would.

They separated themselves spiritually from God. They also physically separated from God’s protection.

Ok, if you want to believe that, or your Catholic faith requires it of you, that’s fine. I’m not willing to perform the mental gymnastics required to say “that day” was 800 years later.

 

[ddarko]

Ok, if you want to believe that, or your Catholic faith requires it of you, that’s fine. I’m not willing to perform the mental gymnastics required to say “that day” was 800 years later.

How much time is it going to take for you to understand that there are million possible logically self consistent interpretations and yours is just one of them?

The right thing to do is to accept the one that holds the interpretation closest to what the apostles preached. Not avoid it because you are unable to do ‘mental gymnastics’.

God Bless

 

[ckempston]

How much time is it going to take for you to understand that there are million possible logically self consistent interpretations and yours is just one of them?

The right thing to do is to accept the one that holds the interpretation closest to what the apostles preached. Not avoid it because you are unable to do ‘mental gymnastics’.

God Bless

How do we determine which one is closest to what the Apostles preached?

 

[ddarko]

How do we determine which one is closest to what the Apostles preached?

You have to go to Tradition.

Take the case about original sin for an example. You have to look in to what was said in Tradition about it.

I think I should clarify what Tradition means here. I will take the example from that video I posted before. So lets say the apostles writes down or preaches ‘unless you eat and drink the body and blood of Christ…’. Now obviously there are many ways we can interpret this. We can take the symbolic route, literal etc. However what we want is to know what exactly the apostles meant. Now there would have obviously been someone who went to the Apostles and said, ‘‘hey what did you mean by that? was it symbolic? literal?’’ and then the apostles would have clarified to him. Now when this other person preaches, he passes down this meaning and so on. Now this data that gets passed down is what we refer to as Tradition.

Now as you can see from that example, we can look to Tradition to see what is really meant by ‘‘unless you eat the body and blood of Christ’’. So Tradition is what tells you which interpretation is closest to the Apostles teachings. The Church just uses it’s authority to designate it or give the final word if you will on that matter to the followers.

So in this case even, thats why I suggested that we should go to Tradition to see what their view was.

Otherwise trying to prove that the Roman Catholic interpretation is logically inconsistent or your view is logically inconsistent is futile. Most likely, both have 100% self-consistent interpretations.

God Bless

 

[grannymh]

Basic Catholic teaching **regarding Adam and Original Sin ** is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and its number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Entering topics, like Adam, is also very useful.

When you enter a paragraph number, like “paragraph 355”, and then click on the opening line, CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 355 you will see the following under the paragraph:

»
»Table of Contents
»
»

 

[Windfish]

This is what I have said many times in this thread, but he has not acknowledged it.

 

[StTommyMore]

How do we determine which one is closest to what the Apostles preached?

Read the Fathers. I mean they actually HEARD the Apostles preach after all.

 

[Donald_Herring]

I believe that mankind as we know it today started with one man and one woman. They chose to disobey God and that allowed for the first time for them to know sin. 6,000 years latter God decided to place His spirit into a human body and pay the debt for sin. Not His sin but yours, mine and all mankinds sin. I am sorry for my sins and I accept He paid the price to wipe my slate clean. I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus is the God/man that did this. I think if you and your science doesn’t accept this then you probably won’t be happy to part of the Catholic Church. The Church and the Bible is where I get this understanding. By the way I’m not interested in any other ideas!

 

[ckempston]

This is what I have said many times in this thread, but he has not acknowledged it.

Continually repeating something does not make it true. Does Original Sin result in spirtual death, or in other words, separation from God?

 

[ckempston]

Read the Fathers. I mean they actually HEARD the Apostles preach after all.

This type of rhetoric is hilarious. If you have a quote that, beyond any doubt, proves that the early church universally believed in Original Sin as Catholics understand it today, feel free to provide them.

 

[Windfish]

Continually repeating something does not make it true. Does Original Sin result in spirtual death, or in other words, separation from God?

No. Apparently, you did not read the Catechism quotes I posted. It is only “sin” in analogical sense, so we have no personal sin to account for. Original Sin merely refers to the sin of Adam that resulted in our fallen natures.

 

[ckempston]

No. Apparently, you did not read the Catechism quotes I posted. It is only “sin” in analogical sense, so we have no personal sin to account for. Original Sin merely refers to the sin of Adam that resulted in our fallen natures.

Oh, so children who are not baptized are in a state of Grace. Is that what you’re saying? Because if so, then we’re in perfect agreement. Of course, that’s not what you’re saying. You’re just using some theological double-speak to say one thing when you really mean another.