Adam and Eve

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ckempston said:
Oh, so children who are not baptized are in a state of Grace. Is that what you’re saying? Because if so, then we’re in perfect agreement. Of course, that’s not what you’re saying. You’re just using some theological double-speak to say one thing when you really mean another.
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No, I actually mean what I say, because that is what the Church teaches. As for unbaptized children, I do not know if they are in a state of grace - I think that might involve a separate question. I will be sure to look this up for you, but last I heard, unbaptized children who die as infants do go to heaven, and I suppose this may have implications for the question.
 
ckempston said:
This type of rhetoric is hilarious. If you have a quote that, beyond any doubt, proves that the early church universally believed in Original Sin as Catholics understand it today, feel free to provide them.
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Could you please be a bit more charitable. Your derision of the Church is really not helping your case.
 
ckempston said:
This type of rhetoric is hilarious. If you have a quote that, beyond any doubt, proves that the early church universally believed in Original Sin as Catholics understand it today, feel free to provide them.
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Hi,

You have not yet replied to my answer to you in post #131. I assume you agree with me then that we should turn to Tradition?

So now, hoping that your quest for the truth is genuine, I direct you to here

newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm

There is enough information on Tradition, Scripture and other theological understandings on the question as the Roman Catholic church teaches.

I hope this will deepen your understanding of the Roman Catholic Church as well and help see the incorrect position you assign to it.

God Bless 🙂
 
Windfish said:
No, I actually mean what I say, because that is what the Church teaches. As for unbaptized children, I do not know if they are in a state of grace - I think that might involve a separate question. I will be sure to look this up for you, but last I heard, unbaptized children who die as infants do go to heaven, and I suppose this may have implications for the question.
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AFAIK, they go to Limbo, where they are not punished, per se, but are denied the beatific vision. I don’t think there is an actual official teaching on this, but many teachers in church history have differed signifantly from they go to hell to they live in a state of natural happiness to they go to heaven.
 
StTommyMore said:
Could you please be a bit more charitable. Your derision of the Church is really not helping your case.
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That was not aimed at the church, but the type of response you gave - “read the Fathers.” This seems like nothing more than a copout. If you have proof from the Fathers, feel free to provide it.

Although I have substantive differences with RC doctrine, I have significant areas where I agree, and believe there is much that is honorable and praiseworthy of the church. Obviously when discussing differences this isn’t going to come across, which is why I’ve explicitly stated it here.
 
ddarko said:
Hi,

You have not yet replied to my answer to you in post #131. I assume you agree with me then that we should turn to Tradition?

So now, hoping that your quest for the truth is genuine, I direct you to here

newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm

There is enough information on Tradition, Scripture and other theological understandings on the question as the Roman Catholic church teaches.

I hope this will deepen your understanding of the Roman Catholic Church as well and help see the incorrect position you assign to it.

God Bless 🙂
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Yes, we should turn to Tradition. I don’t disagree. I may disagree with how much weight we should give Tradition, and there are certainly times when Tradition is nothing more than majority rules, but I do not discount it out of hand like many Protestants.
 
ckempston said:
AFAIK, they go to Limbo, where they are not punished, per se, but are denied the beatific vision. I don’t think there is an actual official teaching on this, but many teachers in church history have differed signifantly from they go to hell to they live in a state of natural happiness to they go to heaven.
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Strickly for Information

While the idea of Limbo has been a speculation, it is not a doctrine of the Catholic Church. One should not underestimate the power of God to touch a soul at any time.
 
Historicity said:
I understand that a real- life counterpart is not needed for stories to reveal a moral truth, yet I see so much of the church doctrine based on the the idea of original sin (which you’re saying itself isn’t doctrine), but maybe I’m not informed enough on the actual teaching of original sin in the church.
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Historicity: if original sin is not true and didn’t start with Adam and Eve; then who is spoken of in Roman’s 5:19 : For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners? And who does it talk about in the following statement; so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Sin originated with Lucifer; Isaiah 14:12: Ezekiel 28:15, but Adam was the fountain head of the Human Race. Genesis 2:17; God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil otherwise, he would die. This was before God caused the deep sleep and tok his rib and made eve. Adam was made from dust but, Eve was from his rib not dust. So even though sinned first man was under the curse of sin and death because of God’s command to Adam and when we die we go back to dust. Genesis 3:19; dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return.
Original sin came into the world by satan as far as origin. As far as original sin to the human race Adam as the fountain head of our race is where it began. This is why Christ is called the 2nd Adam. So how does one answer to Romans 5:19 which talks about Adam and jesus in the same verse? Jerry Kelso
 
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