Adam and Eve

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That is exactly what you’re saying. When I was born, I had not sinned personally. I was in a state of Grace, as are all children, until I sinned personally. Adam’s sin may have made it more likely that I would sin, but it did not make me guilty, or separate me from God (until I had sinned personally). Catholic teaching says the exact opposite of Ezekiel 18:20.
Not according to the Catholic Church ckempston, In case another has not corrected you. Only after baptism do you enter the state of grace. In the traditional baptism - EXORCISM is performed to purges the DEVIL out of a child, hardly the state of grace. After baptism the child remains in the state of grace until he or she sins, that is, they have reached the stage where they can chose right or wrong, and chose wrong.
 
Considering that Jesus is a Jew, and His Kingdom is the Davidic Kingdom, and the Church is the temporal manifestation of that kingdom, then it could be said that Catholicism is the the fullest representation of Judaism. The Church is what the previous covenants were preparing us for. So yes, I think it could be argued that Catholics are spiritual Jews.
I actually agree with this, but my point was with regard to who has been around longer. It does not follow that because a group has been around longer than any other, that it has a corner on truth. In any case, there is more than one contender for “oldest Christian denomination” in the Orthodox and they have substantive disagreements with Roman Catholics on foundational issues.
 
Not according to the Catholic Church ckempston, In case another has not corrected you. Only after baptism do you enter the state of grace. In the traditional baptism - EXORCISM is performed to purges the DEVIL out of a child, hardly the state of grace. After baptism the child remains in the state of grace until he or she sins, that is, they have reached the stage where they can chose right or wrong, and chose wrong.
I am well aware that this is the position of the Roman Catholic church. It is simply wrong. Children are born in a state of Grace. It is only after they personally sin that they “inherit” the punishment given to Adam.
 
I am well aware that this is the position of the Roman Catholic church. It is simply wrong. Children are born in a state of Grace. It is only after they personally sin that they “inherit” the punishment given to Adam.
By thins reasoning, children should never die, because the “wages of sin is death.” If suffering and death are the consequences of sin, and children are pure and completely without sin, then why do children suffer and die?
 
I actually agree with this, but my point was with regard to who has been around longer. It does not follow that because a group has been around longer than any other, that it has a corner on truth. In any case, there is more than one contender for “oldest Christian denomination” in the Orthodox and they have substantive disagreements with Roman Catholics on foundational issues.
Except for the whole rejection of the authority of the Pope, bestowed upon Peter by Christ.
 
Yes, man was created to fall. God intended everything that happened to happen. This is why the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
I disagree. God created humanity and empowered them with a direct connection to Himself. Without that direct connection and protection, humanity began to experience painful childbirth, physical hardships, and death. Humanity’s protective status also changed amoung animals and the earth itself.

God established free will with humanity and a protective family relationship. He gave the appropriate instruction. Our first parents choose their own path. The effect of our first parents’ lack of discernment, created lasting earthly consequences. Our bodies die and decompose. Our soul (and the condition of it) returns to God.

Baptism in the Catholic Church acknowledges the original sin or our first parents, the effect it produced upon humanity, it acknowledges the enticement of Evil, and it reinforces the importance of reconnecting each day with the Trinity for a continual inflow of grace.

The Trinity is the spiritual generator, we are on the receiving end. If we choose to break the connection, it’s our loss.
 
So you’re calling faith only people idiots? No, I’m not, but this is a clear violation of forum rules. You can feel free to apologize if you feel so moved.
Not to get in to a conversation again but this is worth replying.

I said I am sorry if you are a faith only person. Not about what I said. I firmly believe that the people who go faith alone have no logical basis or just do not understand the inherent contradictions involved in such a position. So I only know one word to describe such people and I used it.

You describe a mentally insane person a certain way and you attribute certain actions to them. I simply stated such a scenario. Now if the Hat fits you too, that is not my problem because it was never targeted at you. I can only be sorry that it fits you in the first place.
Everybody has an epistemological problem. This is a problem common to man, and all religions. At some point, all arguments are based on unproven assumptions or circular reasoning. I’m more than willing to admit that. Roman Catholics believe the RCC to be the one true church. Why do they believe that? Because the Roman Catholic church says it.
No. It’s because that is the only possibility.

If Christ did indeed exist and his apostles formed a church. That church cannot be lead astray. Simple as that. If it was lead astray, then God has let down his people. Christ can’t even keep his teachings preserved.
I’ve already explained to you that I accept the canon for the same reason the early church did. They looked at the evidence, which included personal testimony, physical evidence, written records, and oral tradition. They made inferences based on this evidence and came to the most reasonable conclusion that they could. You act like it was magic or something.
No, not magic, I am simply pointing out that they accepted those sources as authority. You are the person that wants to pick and choose. You want to take ONLY the part about the canon of Scripture from "personal testimony, physical evidence, written records, and oral tradition" and discard the rest. That obviously is a double standard.

Finally, the bible can be interpreted in a million ways while having your interpretation logically consistent with themselves BUT contradicting others. You do not seem to have understood that yet.

The church simply takes the interpretations consistent with Tradition. Because that would say how the Apostles who preached meant scripture to be understood. What you’ve done here is throw away Tradition and then start interpreting yourself. So yes, you most likely have a 100% logically consistent interpretation of the Bible. I commend your hard work for it.

But salvation-wise, that is not correct. The Roman Catholic Church teaching, which is from Tradition, contradicts what you are saying. So you want to hold a view that is contrary to what the apostles intended when they wrote Scripture.

That is your problem.

Now I would like to continue this discussion but I do have a very low tolerance when it comes to not so honest discussions. In your case, you are a big fan of using non-sequitor. If you don’t understand what is being said, then obviously everything feels non-sequitor. Even what I said in the previous line probably sounds non-sequitor to you. That is exactly your problem.

God Bless 🙂
 
I am well aware that this is the position of the Roman Catholic church. It is simply wrong. Children are born in a state of Grace. It is only after they personally sin that they “inherit” the punishment given to Adam.
You’re confusing two issues, grace and original sin.

A child is born both with grace from God and the original sin of our first parents. Proof of that original sin is our physical death.

Baptism is “insurance” against our soul’s spiritual death. It is a Sacrament (like Reconciliation and Eucharist) that infills a soul (and a family) with the Trinity.
 
By thins reasoning, children should never die, because the “wages of sin is death.” If suffering and death are the consequences of sin, and children are pure and completely without sin, then why do children suffer and die?
Spiritual death, not physical death. God told Adam that on the very day he sinned, he would die. As he did not die a physical death, God was either talking about spiritual death, or he lied. Man was not made immortal, as is evidenced by God saying that he did not want man to eat the fruit from the tree of life, lest he live forever.
 
You’re confusing two issues, grace and original sin.

A child is born both with grace from God and the original sin of our first parents. Proof of that original sin is our physical death.

Baptism is “insurance” against our soul’s spiritual death. It is a Sacrament (like Reconciliation and Eucharist) that infills a soul (and a family) with the Trinity.
There’s no confusing of issues going on here. IF we inherit Original Sin, we are not in a state of Grace at birth, but under condemnation. IF we are under condemnation from birth, then the soul who DID NOT sin is the soul who DOES die. God says he doesn’t do this.
 
Spiritual death, not physical death. God told Adam that on the very day he sinned, he would die. As he did not die a physical death, God was either talking about spiritual death, or he lied. Man was not made immortal, as is evidenced by God saying that he did not want man to eat the fruit from the tree of life, lest he live forever.
Your exegesis is lacking. Adam’s sin was such that all of creation became cursed because of it. The very ground became cursed, as did the animals, not due to their sin, but to the sin of Adam. Furthermore, your interpretation implies that a human could feasibly work his way into heaven without divine graces by simply not sinning. The Church teaches that the only way to be sinless (as with Mary) can only be through direct intervention from God.
 
Spiritual death, not physical death. God told Adam that on the very day he sinned, he would die. As he did not die a physical death, God was either talking about spiritual death, or he lied. Man was not made immortal, as is evidenced by God saying that he did not want man to eat the fruit from the tree of life, lest he live forever.
Adam and Eve did eventually die, but originally they were not intended to.

God did not want man (after man sinned and pulled away from God) to live forever.
 
There’s no confusing of issues going on here. IF we inherit Original Sin, we are not in a state of Grace at birth, but under condemnation. IF we are under condemnation from birth, then the soul who DID NOT sin is the soul who DOES die. God says he doesn’t do this.
Aborted fetuses and babies are not under condemnation should they die prior to receiving baptism.

It’s from the grace of God that these children are conceived.
 
That is the big one. Even in recent dialogs, that is the major sticking point.
Their views on purgatory, original sin, the immaculate conception, the filioque, and many other beliefs are quite different. I actually find most of Orthodoxy not that disagreeable.
 
Their views on purgatory, original sin, the immaculate conception, the filioque, and many other beliefs are quite different. I actually find most of Orthodoxy not that disagreeable.
Their’s is a logically consistent interpretation with Scripture same as the one you have. The problem is, there are millions of such possible interpretations. albeit, theirs is pretty close to ours.

But what you should want is the interpretation that conveys exactly what the apostles intended when they preached.

For more information, this might help better understand what I mean

youtube.com/watch?v=SNqBMz8ThFI

God Bless 🙂
 
Their views on purgatory, original sin, the immaculate conception, the filioque, and many other beliefs are quite different. I actually find most of Orthodoxy not that disagreeable.
Actually great strides have been made in all of these areas. All I am getting form you is a hatred of Catholicism. I think the your behavior has been very rude. You say what you think the Church teaches, and when you are corrected, by Catholics, you refuse the correction. I suggest you change your tactic from attacking the Church to one of genuinely trying to learn what the Church teaches.
 
😃

Good question, how is it that our 2,000 year old Sacramental belief system so negatively affects other denominations?
 
Hi just a question I’m hoping some people can answer

I’m assuming there are some non-fundamentalist Catholics here and since a non-fundamentalist Catholic will likely not believe that Adam and Eve actually existed, I’m wondering what the response would be to the question of if Adam and Eve didn’t exist, there would be no origin of original sin, and therefore no reason for salvation from original sin/the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross?

Someone please clarify this for me.
You say “non-fundamentalist” as though the word fundamentalist means “extremist”. It doesn’t.

The people to whom you refer are “orthodox” – which means they accept and believe that which the Church teaches in her infallible capacity as the vessel of Christ’s truth. One of those things is that there were, in fact, an Adam and Eve.

Please refrain from insinuating that people who obey the Church are somehow misguided in their faith.

Peace,
Dante
 
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