Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

[Richca]

The first few chapters of Genesis are so very interesting and enlightening. The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil are also very interesting subjects and they are a part of the Genesis story of Adam and Eve for obviously a good reason as the writer of Genesis was working under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
A good study of the meaning of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil should include not only modern biblical exegesis but especially what the early fathers of the church had to say about it as a number of them were outstanding in their knowledge of Holy Scripture and of the catholic faith. We could also include here doctors of the church such as St Thomas Aquinas in whom the gift of wisdom of the Holy Spirit is so manifest and who had such a great knowledge of the teaching of the fathers of the church, the Holy Scriptures, as well as philosophy.

I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is so called because by eating of its fruit against God’s command, Adam and Eve then knew sin or moral evil first hand or by experience. The knowledge of sin or moral evil by experience is not the kind of knowledge God wants us to have, indeed, He commands us not to sin.
Where it is written that Eve saw the tree as desirable for gaining wisdom, this was a deception by the devil when he said “God knows well that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, who know good and evil.” Aquinas says that the tree of knowledge of good and evil did not have the power to cause knowledge. As human beings naturally desire to know, the devil lied and tempted Eve that by eating of the fruit of the forbidden tree, she would gain the perfection or totality of knowledge which the scripture refers to as the knowledge of good and evil. The only knowledge Adam and Eve came to know from eating of the forbidden tree was the knowledge of sin or moral evil and disobedience and the good of obedience from experience.

Where it is written, “Then the LORD God said: See! The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil!” Biblical exegetes say this is like an ironic statement from God and I think it can mean either of two things. First, God does not know moral evil or sin firsthand nor can He, so its like an ironic statement alluding to the devil’s deception to Eve of knowing good and evil and becoming like gods. Or two, if God’s statement alludes to the perfection or totality of knowledge, this is also ironic, as creatures cannot attain to the perfection or totality of knowledge as God.

In the Douay-Rheims Bible at the Annunciation of the birth of Jesus from Mary in the first chapter of the gospel of Luke, verse 34 reads “And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?” The word “know” here means Mary has had no sexual relations with a man, she was a virgin. In the same way, our Blessed Lady does not know sin or moral evil as she is sinless. However, nobody can say that our Blessed Lady does not know the difference between good and evil or the good of obedience to God’s command and the evil of disobedience or sin for a reading of just the fall of Adam and Eve, not to mention the history of the Israelite nation, can give a person a knowledge of the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience. Our Blessed Mother’s knowledge and wisdom far surpasses any other human or angel yet she is without sin. In the same way I think, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden is so called because God gave Adam and Eve a command not to eat of it and by eating of it, Adam and Eve became to know sin; a knowledge God does not wish us to have. For sinning does not perfect our nature and love for God, but corrupts it. However, because of God’s love for human beings and because of His infinite mercy and power, He is able to draw good out of evil.

Correction to above “she [Eve] would gain the perfection or totality of knowledge which the scripture refers to as the knowledge of good and evil.”

Should read: she [Eve] would gain the perfection or totality of knowledge which the **devil **refers to as the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[grannymh]

Quick note to fhansen.

Somewhere back you asked me something about Adam growing in knowledge. A common sense approach to human nature would say yes. Where I and everyone else differ is the meaning of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil according to Catholic teachings …

I spotted some other differences in other posts.

 

[fhansen]

Quick note to fhansen.

Somewhere back you asked me something about Adam growing in knowledge. A common sense approach to human nature would say yes. Where I and everyone else differ is the meaning of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil according to Catholic teachings …

I spotted some other differences in other posts.

Yes, according to Catholic teachings. One problem is that, in Catholic teachings, little elaboration is made on the meaning of the name. The mere existence of the tree, itself, signifies, in simplest terms, that man must obey God, as the tree poses an either/or situation for man: eat the fruit (disobey) and die, don’t eat and remain alive. But none of that directly sheds a great deal of light on the meaning of the name. I’d like to hear more on the Catholic teachings that you’re aware of.

My point about Adam’s ability to grow in knowledge or wisdom has to do with how this fact affects him before and after the Fall. While he was equipped with all the knowledge that he should have required in order to remain in obedience to God, could he nonetheless have gained by experience the understanding that the knowledge he was already given was right and true-that God was worthy of his obedience, not to mention his love, like the Prodigal learning the hard way of his own father’s goodness? Man, IOW, must make a conscious decision to obey God-and, incidentally, the decision becomes easier as he comes to know and love God, as man comes to appreciate and embrace the goodness that is God. Adam wanted to be God rather than love God. In so doing he simply refused to acknowledge God as God, and he was immediately lost as a result.

To put it slightly differently, could humanity gain anything, regardless of whether or not this “thing” should’ve been necessary, by being cast into this world, and if so what did they gain, and how might it be put to use or employed for their benefit? Could it ultimately contribute to their perfecting, perhaps by adding nothing more than the impetus or reason for them to will rightly? By experiencing something negative, something outside God’s will, something they should never have had to experience, could they nevertheless thereby come to gain insight into, to know, the perfection of His will? Disobedience of God’s will cast them into darkness, into the state of being outside of His will, an unjust state of “apartness” from Him . This is the state we’re all born into. And Jesus, of course, tells us what we all need to learn, “Apart from Me you can do nothing”. John 15:5

 

[grannymh]

The first few chapters of Genesis are so very interesting and enlightening. The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil are also very interesting subjects and they are a part of the Genesis story of Adam and Eve for obviously a good reason as the writer of Genesis was working under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
A good study of the meaning of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil should include not only modern biblical exegesis but especially what the early fathers of the church had to say about it as a number of them were outstanding in their knowledge of Holy Scripture and of the catholic faith. We could also include here doctors of the church such as St Thomas Aquinas in whom the gift of wisdom of the Holy Spirit is so manifest and who had such a great knowledge of the teaching of the fathers of the church, the Holy Scriptures, as well as philosophy.

I am sure you will agree that not every Catholic doctrine appears in the first three chapters of |Genesis.

The fastest way to find out what all of the above sources contributed to the Catholic Faith is to use the Index of Citations found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. Be sure to read CCC 20-22 first.

This universal Catechism has the supplementary teachings which are directly connected to human nature which of course refers to our first human parents Adam and Eve. A good starting place is CCC paragraphs 355-421. In addition, *CCC *1730-1732 is key.

One of the major paragraphs to explain the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil could be* CCC* 386. I am traveling and using a hotel computer which has a different browser, etc., and for some reason my favorites are not available. And, my cranky brain has not figured out how to have multiple screens so I can search without losing this post.

I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is so called because by eating of its fruit against God’s command, Adam and Eve then knew sin or moral evil first hand or by experience.

Correct regarding God expressed His command. I am not sure about experiencing moral evil first hand since there were only two people in the Garden. Could you elaborate?

The knowledge of sin or moral evil by experience is not the kind of knowledge God wants us to have, indeed, He commands us not to sin.
Where it is written that Eve saw the tree as desirable for gaining wisdom, this was a deception by the devil when he said “God knows well that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, who know good and evil.” Aquinas says that the tree of knowledge of good and evil did not have the power to cause knowledge. As human beings naturally desire to know, the devil lied and tempted Eve that by eating of the fruit of the forbidden tree, she would gain the perfection or totality of knowledge which the scripture refers to as the knowledge of good and evil.

I would love to have the citation for the Aquinas reference.

The only knowledge Adam and Eve came to know from eating of the forbidden tree was the knowledge of sin or moral evil and disobedience and the good of obedience from experience.

There is an ongoing discussion of this …

Where it is written, “Then the LORD God said: See! The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil!” Biblical exegetes say this is like an ironic statement from God and I think it can mean either of two things. First, God does not know moral evil or sin firsthand nor can He, so its like an ironic statement alluding to the devil’s deception to Eve of knowing good and evil and becoming like gods. Or two, if God’s statement alludes to the perfection or totality of knowledge, this is also ironic, as creatures cannot attain to the perfection or totality of knowledge as God.

This has to refer back to a correct understanding of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Once that understanding is obtained, you may or may not want to modify this.

In the Douay-Rheims Bible at the Annunciation of the birth of Jesus from Mary in the first chapter of the gospel of Luke, verse 34 reads “And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?” The word “know” here means Mary has had no sexual relations with a man, she was a virgin. In the same way, our Blessed Lady does not know sin or moral evil as she is sinless. However, nobody can say that our Blessed Lady does not know the difference between good and evil or the good of obedience to God’s command and the evil of disobedience or sin for a reading of just the fall of Adam and Eve, not to mention the history of the Israelite nation, can give a person a knowledge of the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience. Our Blessed Mother’s knowledge and wisdom far surpasses any other human or angel yet she is without sin. In the same way I think, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden is so called because God gave Adam and Eve a command not to eat of it and by eating of it, Adam and Eve became to know sin; a knowledge God does not wish us to have. For sinning does not perfect our nature and love for God, but corrupts it. However, because of God’s love for human beings and because of His infinite mercy and power, He is able to draw good out of evil.

This is good. Yet, because many people today do not fully understand related Catholic doctrines, one cannot omit Original Sin by using the generic to know sin.

**** I just found the important paragraph – CCC 396
**396 **The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

 

[grannymh]

Yes, according to Catholic teachings. One problem is that, in Catholic teachings, little elaboration is made on the meaning of the name. The mere existence of the tree, itself, signifies, in simplest terms, that man must obey God, as the tree poses an either/or situation for man: eat the fruit (disobey) and die, don’t eat and remain alive. But none of that directly sheds a great deal of light on the meaning of the name. I’d like to hear more on the Catholic teachings that you’re aware of.

This is from the *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

*The emphasis is mine.
**396 **God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: “for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.” The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.
From here one has to read and understand the *CCC *section 351-421 plus CCC 1730-32 and other related information paragraphs such as those on conscience, requirements for serious sin such as Mortal Sin, attributes of God, Original Sin and the necessity for a Divine Redeemer. You know all this – it is just a matter of relating key points to the name of the Tree. Actually, a better, quicker way to find out about the Tree is to go directly to the purpose of the Tree.

What follows is very useful and important information which can also be used.
In my opinion, there is a lot we can learn from Adam’s experience. Going backwards thousands of years means we do have to guess a bit about Adam’s thought process. Again, in my own personal opinion, we can mentally explore different scenarios, as long as we do not loose sight of Adam’s true human nature and the true Original Sin.

My point about Adam’s ability to grow in knowledge or wisdom has to do with how this fact affects him before and after the Fall. While he was equipped with all the knowledge that he should have required in order to remain in obedience to God, could he nonetheless have gained by experience the understanding that the knowledge he was already given was right and true-that God was worthy of his obedience, not to mention his love, like the Prodigal learning the hard way of his own father’s goodness? Man, IOW, must make a conscious decision to obey God-and, incidentally, the decision becomes easier as he comes to know and love God, as man comes to appreciate and embrace the goodness that is God. Adam wanted to be God rather than love God. In so doing he simply refused to acknowledge God as God, and he was immediately lost as a result.

To put it slightly differently, could humanity gain anything, regardless of whether or not this “thing” should’ve been necessary, by being cast into this world, and if so what did they gain, and how might it be put to use or employed for their benefit? Could it ultimately contribute to their perfecting, perhaps by adding nothing more than the impetus or reason for them to will rightly? By experiencing something negative, something outside God’s will, something they should never have had to experience, could they nevertheless thereby come to gain insight into, to know, the perfection of His will? Disobedience of God’s will cast them into darkness, into the state of being outside of His will, an unjust state of “apartness” from Him . This is the state we’re all born into. And Jesus, of course, tells us what we all need to learn, “Apart from Me you can do nothing”. John 15:5

 

[fhansen]

This is from the *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

*The emphasis is mine.
**396 **God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: “for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.” The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.
From here one has to read and understand the *CCC *section 351-421 plus CCC 1730-32 and other related information paragraphs such as those on conscience, requirements for serious sin such as Mortal Sin, attributes of God, Original Sin and the necessity for a Divine Redeemer. You know all this – it is just a matter of relating key points to the name of the Tree. Actually, a better, quicker way to find out about the Tree is to go directly to the purpose of the Tree.

Granny, I’d ask you to consider the comments of Aquinas from his Compendium of Theology that I quoted in post #216.

 

[simpleas]

Briefly. Knowing good and evil is part of human nature. Adam knew the goodness of God and because he has a rational soul, he can figure out what the absence of God would be like.

To assure that all humankind could know the difference between good and evil – there is only one Adam and only one first family, Adam and Eve.

God’s command was not against knowing good and evil.

God’s command involved the impossibility of two equal Gods.

So how did Adam know what it would be like not to be “with” God?

 

[grannymh]

Granny, I’d ask you to consider the comments of Aquinas from his Compendium of Theology that I quoted in post #216.

From post 216.

Hence eating of the fruit of this tree was evil because it was forbidden. The tree was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not because it had the power to cause knowledge, but because of the sequel: by eating of it man learned by experience the difference between the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience.

Here are the words which must be carefully considered. but because of the sequel
Not previous. Not during. It is a sequel following the action. The last words of Genesis 2: 15-17 could be considered the sequel which would follow the forbidden action.

St. Thomas probably assumed that readers would be reading pages before and pages after an intriguing statement. Thus, he may have assumed that readers knew the nature of the evil which was forbidden, that is, for Adam to shatter the relationship between humanity and Divinity would be intrinsically evil. This evil can be learned when the first sentence in* CCC* 396 is studied. By eating, not before eating, this Original Sin severed the relationship between Creator and creature. Immediately, following Adam’s free action, Adam and Eve lost their original State of Holiness and Justice.

 

[simpleas]

The first few chapters of Genesis are so very interesting and enlightening. The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil are also very interesting subjects and they are a part of the Genesis story of Adam and Eve for obviously a good reason as the writer of Genesis was working under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
A good study of the meaning of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil should include not only modern biblical exegesis but especially what the early fathers of the church had to say about it as a number of them were outstanding in their knowledge of Holy Scripture and of the catholic faith. We could also include here doctors of the church such as St Thomas Aquinas in whom the gift of wisdom of the Holy Spirit is so manifest and who had such a great knowledge of the teaching of the fathers of the church, the Holy Scriptures, as well as philosophy.

I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is so called because by eating of its fruit against God’s command, Adam and Eve then knew sin or moral evil first hand or by experience. The knowledge of sin or moral evil by experience is not the kind of knowledge God wants us to have, indeed, He commands us not to sin.
Where it is written that Eve saw the tree as desirable for gaining wisdom, this was a deception by the devil when he said “God knows well that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, who know good and evil.” Aquinas says that the tree of knowledge of good and evil did not have the power to cause knowledge. As human beings naturally desire to know, the devil lied and tempted Eve that by eating of the fruit of the forbidden tree, she would gain the perfection or totality of knowledge which the scripture refers to as the knowledge of good and evil. The only knowledge Adam and Eve came to know from eating of the forbidden tree was the knowledge of sin or moral evil and disobedience and the good of obedience from experience.

Where it is written, “Then the LORD God said: See! The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil!” Biblical exegetes say this is like an ironic statement from God and I think it can mean either of two things. First, God does not know moral evil or sin firsthand nor can He, so its like an ironic statement alluding to the devil’s deception to Eve of knowing good and evil and becoming like gods. Or two, if God’s statement alludes to the perfection or totality of knowledge, this is also ironic, as creatures cannot attain to the perfection or totality of knowledge as God.

In the Douay-Rheims Bible at the Annunciation of the birth of Jesus from Mary in the first chapter of the gospel of Luke, verse 34 reads “And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?” The word “know” here means Mary has had no sexual relations with a man, she was a virgin. In the same way, our Blessed Lady does not know sin or moral evil as she is sinless. However, nobody can say that our Blessed Lady does not know the difference between good and evil or the good of obedience to God’s command and the evil of disobedience or sin for a reading of just the fall of Adam and Eve, not to mention the history of the Israelite nation, can give a person a knowledge of the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience. Our Blessed Mother’s knowledge and wisdom far surpasses any other human or angel yet she is without sin. In the same way I think, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden is so called because God gave Adam and Eve a command not to eat of it and by eating of it, Adam and Eve became to know sin; a knowledge God does not wish us to have. For sinning does not perfect our nature and love for God, but corrupts it. However, because of God’s love for human beings and because of His infinite mercy and power, He is able to draw good out of evil.

Thanks.

God didn’t want A&E to know what evil was, because he knew what it would do to his children, but he allows it, because he lets A&E have freewill. Still the tree wasn’t just about evil, it was also about good, in which they both already must have known what good was.

 

[grannymh]

So how did Adam know what it would be like not to be “with” God?

The same way a husband would know what life would be without his loving wife.:bigyikes:

 

[simpleas]

The question “did A&E need to grow in knowledge and wisdom?”

I’d say yes, because if they were no different from us in body/soul, then I can relate to them through my need to grow in knowledge and wisdom.
They obviously knew they needed to grow in knowledge, because they trusted the words of another, God had told them not to eat of it, or they would die. Snake tells them they will not die and they will be like God knowing good and evil. So their thirst for knowledge and to be like God leads them down the wrong path. THEN they know what it means to be without God, they have this experiential knowledge that they didn’t have before.

If they had known good and evil, but not experienced it, then I can’t relate to them, because to me, they would be a different type of human being, incapable of rightly choosing good/evil. They would know of it, but not completely because they would not have committed a good act or a evil act. Not because I think they needed this experience as such, but that they wouldn’t seem like your average human being, they would be somehow higher than us…if you get my opinion?

Same with morals, as they were the only Two humans in the garden, they were ordered to be morally good, but how would they know what morals were if their standards would never have dropped?

 

[fhansen]

From post 216.

Hence eating of the fruit of this tree was evil because it was forbidden. The tree was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not because it had the power to cause knowledge, but because of the sequel: by eating of it man learned by experience the difference between the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience.

Here are the words which must be carefully considered. but because of the sequel
Not previous. Not during. It is a sequel following the action. The last words of Genesis 2: 15-17 could be considered the sequel which would follow the forbidden action.

St. Thomas probably assumed that readers would be reading pages before and pages after an intriguing statement. Thus, he may have assumed that readers knew the nature of the evil which was forbidden, that is, for Adam to shatter the relationship between humanity and Divinity would be intrinsically evil. This evil can be learned when the first sentence in* CCC* 396 is studied. By eating, not before eating, this Original Sin severed the relationship between Creator and creature. Immediately, following Adam’s free action, Adam and Eve lost their original State of Holiness and Justice.

I don’t know that I’d disagree with this. The point is that, as a result of eating the fruit, A&E gained experience-and so they knew something in a manner that they hadn’t known it before. Immediately their eyes were opened; the act of disobedience, itself, being the very first evil, the source and epitome of all other evils, that they experienced. More evil would follow, the tree having opened the door to sinfulness and the direct “knowledge” of that sin/evil for all humankind, not to mention the physical evil that also resulted from their departure from the intimate relationship with God and His life/grace within them. Adam and Eve would’ve remained completely innocent to such possibilities as rape, torture, genocide, white lies, etc, while God, OTOH, would always know of those possible evils for His creatures once obedience to His will was breached.

 

[simpleas]

The same way a husband would know what life would be without his loving wife.:bigyikes:

Yes, as all married men know, they shouldn’t disobey their loving wife…

Actually, I am not sure this was a “serious” answer to my question?

 

[Richca]

The question “did A&E need to grow in knowledge and wisdom?”

I’d say yes, because if they were no different from us in body/soul, then I can relate to them through my need to grow in knowledge and wisdom.
They obviously knew they needed to grow in knowledge, because they trusted the words of another, God had told them not to eat of it, or they would die. Snake tells them they will not die and they will be like God knowing good and evil. So their thirst for knowledge and to be like God leads them down the wrong path. THEN they know what it means to be without God, they have this experiential knowledge that they didn’t have before.

If they had known good and evil, but not experienced it, then I can’t relate to them, because to me, they would be a different type of human being, incapable of rightly choosing good/evil. They would know of it, but not completely because they would not have committed a good act or a evil act. Not because I think they needed this experience as such, but that they wouldn’t seem like your average human being, they would be somehow higher than us…if you get my opinion?

Same with morals, as they were the only Two humans in the garden, they were ordered to be morally good, but how would they know what morals were if their standards would never have dropped?

The disobedience of Adam and Eve to God’s command did not make them better off but worse off as a reading of their fall in Genesis 3 plainly shows. Disobedience to God and sinning is not knowledge and wisdom or truth but is opposed to truth and wisdom.

 

[simpleas]

The disobedience of Adam and Eve to God’s command did not make them better off but worse off as a reading of their fall in Genesis 3 plainly shows. Disobedience to God and sinning is not knowledge and wisdom or truth but is opposed to truth and wisdom.

The way I see it, is we learn from our mistakes, A&E were allowed freewill and so made their choice. Sure they lost when they sinned, but then they and the rest of humanity would grow in knowledge and wisdom of God, and we still are learning.

 

[Aloysium]

The way I see it, is we learn from our mistakes, A&E were allowed freewill and so made their choice. Sure they lost when they sinned, but then they and the rest of humanity would grow in knowledge and wisdom of God, and we still are learning.

I don’t agree.
The prodigal son learned what from his mistake? - that he was a foolish sinner.
It is by repenting, through the sacrifice of the Son and thereby returning to the Father, that we grow.
Mistakes are just as likely (more so ?) to make one a shrewder villain.
One grows in wisdom, knowledge and understanding through the grace of the Holy Spirit.
Participate in God’s Holy Church and pray; ask and it will be given.

 

[simpleas]

I don’t agree.
The prodigal son learned what from his mistake? - that he was a foolish sinner.
It is by repenting, through the sacrifice of the Son and thereby returning to the Father, that we grow.
Mistakes are just as likely (more so ?) to make one a shrewder villain.
One grows in wisdom, knowledge and understanding through the grace of the Holy Spirit.
Participate in God’s Holy Church and pray; ask and it will be given.

Yes he learned he was a foolish sinner by first being a sinner, repenting and being forgiven.
Its evident to me that this is the same for A&E, although their sin was not forgiven straight away, they sinned and suffered the consequences, and so does all humanity.

They are very different from the prodigal son, they had no sin in them, where as the PS was born as a sinner.
They had the gift of grace, knowledge of what would happen to all humans as a result of disobeying God, and they still went ahead and sinned.

To me we learn from our mistakes, most all the time, I don’t mean that we need not ask forgiveness, usually we learn not to make the same mistake twice (although none of us are perfect, so the same mistake is likely)

So A&E didn’t need to learn from their sin? It seems they did need to learn or they wouldn’t have sinned…

To your last sentence, is that your advice to me?

 

[Aloysium]

. . .To your last sentence, is that your advice to me?

Advice for all. Developing a dialogue with God, the Truth, is not going to happen through sin, but as shown by Christ, in loving obedience of the Father.

 

[simpleas]

Advice for all. Developing a dialogue with God, the Truth, is not going to happen through sin, but as shown by Christ, in loving obedience of the Father.

I wondered how you could know how I or anyone else may participate in the church from that statement.

As I may have said before, we don’t need to sin in order to know it is sin, but we may be experiencing a sinful life, until we arrive at the truth.

 

[Aloysium]

I wondered how you could know how I or anyone else may participate in the church from that statement.

As I may have said before, we don’t need to sin in order to know it is sin, but we may be experiencing a sinful life, until we arrive at the truth.

It’s like saying, “We should brush our teeth.” It wasn’t intended to be taken personally or as a chastisement. A simple statement of fact - that in addition to saving and redeeming us through His death and resurrection, the Word was made flesh to establish His Holy Church as the truest, quickest and surest way to know God.

I agree with what you go on to say, but feeling ornery, I’ve got to top it.
While it seems I’ve arrived at a certain amount of what is truth, I keep sinning. It’s in my nature and it keeps me humble, I guess.
I’m trying though. I keep telling myself that the quest for perfection is in the service of pride and it is only through Jesus Christ that it is truly attained.

So thinking this out, it turns out that I agree with you completely. I would capitalize the “T” as Truth describes a person.