Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

[simpleas]

It’s like saying, “We should brush our teeth.” It wasn’t intended to be taken personally or as a chastisement. A simple statement of fact - that in addition to saving and redeeming us through His death and resurrection, the Word was made flesh to establish His Holy Church as the truest, quickest and surest way to know God.

I agree with what you go on to say, but feeling ornery, I’ve got to top it.
While it seems I’ve arrived at a certain amount of what is truth, I keep sinning. It’s in my nature and it keeps me humble, I guess.
I’m trying though. I keep telling myself that the quest for perfection is in the service of pride and it is only through Jesus Christ that it is truly attained.

So thinking this out, it turns out that I agree with you completely. I would capitalize the “T” as Truth describes a person.

Thanks for clarifying that

Yeah, I think of it now more than ever as a journey, like we can’t grab hold of faith and just have it and become completely perfect, we instead grow in faith, step by step, the door opens slowly when we are ready to accept the Truth.

 

[fhansen]

Thanks for clarifying that

Yeah, I think of it now more than ever as a journey, like we can’t grab hold of faith and just have it and become completely perfect, we instead grow in faith, step by step, the door opens slowly when we are ready to accept the Truth.

Yep, I think it’s appropriate to cite the catechism again regarding this journey, which was begun for the human race with Adam & Eve.

**302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:

By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, "reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well". For "all are open and laid bare to his eyes", even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.**

 

[Aloysium]

Yep, I think it’s appropriate to cite the catechism again regarding this journey, which was begun for the human race with Adam & Eve.

**302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:

By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, "reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well". For "all are open and laid bare to his eyes", even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.**

Referenced/reproduced your post on another thread regarding “Why doesn’t God just not create the bad people . . .” as it seemed relevant to the issues of time, eternity, free will and the existence of evil. Thx.

 

[fhansen]

I think the only command Adam needed to hear-and the only one he heard-was “Thou Shalt Obey Me, the Lord your God”, the directive represented by the command not to eat of the fruit of the Tree. Any other laws would be unnecessary, superfluous, because as long as Adam remained connected to, subjugated to, in relationship with God, he wouldn’t need commands against adultery, theft, murder, etc-these things would be foreign to him; they wouldn’t even occur to him. Had he witnessed these sins he would’ve immediately recognized them as wrong but up to that point he’d never even imagined, much less experienced, such anomalies. Only later, after the original sin had been committed and when the time was ripe, this most basic command to obey would be complimented by various other, specific, commands against the many sins that flourished as a result of that first sin, of that initial refusal to simply obey.

Later yet all commands would be superseded by an even greater and better one, the greatest commandment, in fact, which didn’t abrogate the first: “Thou Shalt Love Me, the Lord your God”. Because with this later command all the others are fulfilled, including obedience to Him. In fact, this is the only authentic way for obedience to be realized at all because we can’t sufficiently or permanently or consistently obey by sheer* will*power, good as our intentions may be (this was proven by the experience of God’s chosen people in their attempts to fulfill the Old Covenant). We’re drawn to that which we honestly perceive to be good. As we grow in knoweldge of God we come to recognize that goodness in Him. As we recognize that goodness in Him, we come to love Him. As we come to love Him we begin to obey, willingly-something Adam couldn’t bring himself to do. This is the journey humankind is on as it follows its Shepherd: the journey towards perfection.

“Thou shalt obey” vs.“Thou shalt love”. The first is only fulfilled in the second. The second is what Adam, and all of us, need to learn, to strive for.

The Greatest Commandment wasn’t a new command; it was just given new impetus and understanding and glory by the New Covenant which was ushered into existence by Jesus’ blood, shed while demonstrating His own act of uncompromised love, itself a supreme act of obedience to the Father.

 

[grannymh]

Pardon me. Satan existed before Adam.

Regradless of all the comments about the dumb idiot Adam – He did have to obey the moral code given to creature humans by the Creator.

Is it possible that smart Satan would ignore the so-called dumb Adam? Of course, Satan would seize any opporunity to entice Adam to sin, any sin. It is only the original major, mortal, sin which shattered humanity’s relationship with Divinity.

It is my humble observation, that Catholic logic needs to be applied to the life of Adam. Catholic, because we are not teaching the teachings of other regligions. Nor are we teaching the attempts of some, not all, Catholics who want to change Divine Revelation, that is, to update Catholicism.

There is a danger in trying to undermine the human nature of Adam. If we are able to alter some common sense observations about the events (plural intended) which happened during the time period of the Garden, then it is possible for others to alter human nature so that the Catholic doctrine of monogenism is damaged beyond repair.

One Adam and one spouse Eve logically insures our own relationship with God.

Note: I am traveling and am depending on hotel guest computers. Thus, there will be times when I cannot access CAF.

 

[fhansen]

Pardon me. Satan existed before Adam.

Regradless of all the comments about the dumb idiot Adam – He did have to obey the moral code given to creature humans by the Creator.

Not dumb, not idiotic, but definitely innocent, however you wish to define that term but in any case innocence is no way the equivalent of dumb or idiotic and I haven’t heard anyone describe Adam in that way. And God didn’t create either Satan or Adam to know the things they’d later come to know as a result of their own rebellions.

It is my humble observation, that Catholic logic needs to be applied to the life of Adam. Catholic, because we are not teaching the teachings of other regligions. Nor are we teaching the attempts of some, not all, Catholics who want to change Divine Revelation, that is, to update Catholicism.

Yes, logic helps us to understand the faith better, not change or update it-or simply remain locked in our own private, myopic, traditional beliefs either.

 

[grannymh]

Not dumb, not idiotic, but definitely innocent, however you wish to define that term but in any case innocence is no way the equivalent of dumb or idiotic and I haven’t heard anyone describe Adam in that way. And God didn’t create either Satan or Adam to know the things they’d later come to know as a result of their own rebellions.

Yes, logic helps us to understand the faith better, not change or update it-or simply remain locked in our own private, myopic, traditional beliefs either.

Sadly, within the many thousands of posts on Adam, there is a large number which do equate “innocence” with a defective human nature which in practical terminology leads to the conclusion that Adam was dumb, an idiot who could not understand the difference between being in a friendship relationship with God and no relationship with God, unless …

Thankfully, there are posts which explain that “innocence” can mean without sin.
However, Adam being without sin does not mean that Adam did not understand what sin is, especially the original major, mortal sin.

 

[fhansen]

Sadly, within the many thousands of posts on Adam, there is a large number which do equate “innocence” with a defective human nature which in practical terminology leads to the conclusion that Adam was dumb, an idiot who could not understand the difference between being in a friendship relationship with God and no relationship with God, unless …

Thankfully, there are posts which explain that “innocence” can mean without sin.
However, Adam being without sin does not mean that Adam did not understand what sin is, especially the original major, mortal sin.

Yes, but I’d bet Adam knew even better yet what a shattered relationship with God means after he fell. More than likely a far better persective, based on experience unfortunately or otherwise.

God knows in absolute terms; man knows by degrees.

 

[rinnie]

What ??? Emphasis mine.
“SO God said Go for it. You are on your own, if you think you can do better, you fend for yourself. Its an EYEOPENER if you truly think about it.”

Thank heavens that is **not **Catholic teaching.

Why would you say that. Is it not Catholic teaching that we have free will to obey God and his commands, or choose to disobey God and choose self over God and sin?

Although I put it into my own words where does what I say disagree with Catholic teaching?

You don’t believe that God gives us the choice to reject him, and live our life without him?

 

[simpleas]

Adam wasn’t a dumb idiot, he along with Eve were the first to be in the “presence” of God, have ordered wills etc. He clearly understood what was Good and proper and obeyed God. He also clearly understood what would happen to his, eve’s and every being created in the image of God, soul on disobeying Gods one command.

Just one temptation from the father of lies, the murderer, the accuser, the snake, was far to much to resist, even for A&E, who were ordered in goodness because evil did not yet exist. They wanted to be like God, to know all.

So how are A&E innocent? If we believe they knew all in terms of the out come if you like, they can not be innocent. They would know full well what they would do would be to bring death upon themselves bodily and spiritually, and bring evil into the world for the rest of man kind.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Although I put it into my own words where does what I say disagree with Catholic teaching? . . .

:twocents:

The problem is the angry, rejecting tone of the imagined reply. It isn’t in keeping with what a loving parent would do. Also, He didn’t sit back, but sent is Son to save and redeem us through His sacrifice on the cross and resurrection. Although we reject Him, He makes it possible to return to Him.

 

[rinnie]

I think I’ve missed more than the whole point…

We aren’t talking about people today, we are talking about the first two humans who knew only Good, they had never sinned, so were in friendship with God.

They didn’t get thrown out because of sin? I think it was because of their disobedience…

Yes they blamed each other, and that makes them sound very childish.

Actually we are speaking of People of today. You have to look at this in a deeper way.

Adam never said God I am sorry I disobeyed you, Eve never said God I am sorry I disobeyed you. They both tried to put the blame on someone else.

Although yes it is true they disobeyed God, you have to think of what sin is. Sin is death. Just like God said, you eat and you will die. But it was not a physical death it was spiritual death.

Just like today if we sin we are dead, not physically but spiritually in the soul. If we refuse to repent and admit that we used our free will to sin and disobey God, then we are the same as Adam and Eve. We will be thrown out also, but instead of the garden as Adam and Eve, its the eternal garden that we call heaven.

People miss much of the true understanding of this story. Its not just that we sin, its when we deny our sin that we will be forever separated from God. When you deny sin, you will not repent.

Look what truly happened, they heard God coming what did they do? They ran and hid, Why? They knew they sinned. But did they say Lord I am sorry for what I have done, I disobeyed you? No.

Adam never said I knew I should not have and I am sorry, first he tried to hide from God, then when that did not work instead of then repenting he tried to turn it around and blame it on God. He said YOU gave me the woman.

Then when it came to Eve she should have said I am sorry, I should have obeyed you, but she did not obey God she obeyed the devil. Again instead of admitting her sin, and guilt, she said the devil tricked me.

The devil never tricked her, she told the devil herself I am not allowed to eat it. She used free will to disobey God and listen to the devil.

This goes back to not just our sin, but our free will to sin and disobey God, and then not repent our sin.

Where in this story do you see Adam and Eve ever showing remorse for what they did?

The bottom line is they wanted to be God. They no longer wanted to obey God and his commands.

This is a great lesson here for all of us.

 

[fhansen]

Why would you say that. Is it not Catholic teaching that we have free will to obey God and his commands, or choose to disobey God and choose self over God and sin?

Although I put it into my own words where does what I say disagree with Catholic teaching?

You don’t believe that God gives us the choice to reject him, and live our life without him?

I’m sure most eveyone knew how you meant it. It just needs to be emphasized that God would never have a cavalier attitude towards A&E’s sinning, a do-as-you-like position, even as He allowed them the freedom to do as they liked.

 

[fhansen]

Adam wasn’t a dumb idiot, he along with Eve were the first to be in the “presence” of God, have ordered wills etc. He clearly understood what was Good and proper and obeyed God. He also clearly understood what would happen to his, eve’s and every being created in the image of God, soul on disobeying Gods one command.

Just one temptation from the father of lies, the murderer, the accuser, the snake, was far to much to resist, even for A&E, who were ordered in goodness because evil did not yet exist. They wanted to be like God, to know all.

So how are A&E innocent? If we believe they knew all in terms of the out come if you like, they can not be innocent. They would know full well what they would do would be to bring death upon themselves bodily and spiritually, and bring evil into the world for the rest of man kind.

They were innocdnt because nothing in God’s creation can be anything but inniocent unless and until they, themselves, participate in evil.

 

[rinnie]

:twocents:

The problem is the angry, rejecting tone of the imagined reply. It isn’t in keeping with what a loving parent would do. Also, He didn’t sit back, but sent is Son to save and redeem us through His sacrifice on the cross and resurrection. Although we reject Him, He makes it possible to return to Him.

It was never meant to be said in a angry and rejecting tone. And it is indeed what a loving parent would do, even today.

If you told your Son that this is the rules of my house and you most obey them. By the way we are not speaking of a child, this was a grown women and man.

Your Son refuses to abide by your rules, so you say then if you want to do things your way, by all means, go. But as long as you live under my roof, you do as I say.

Same with the Prod. Son. The one listened to his Dad, the other did not.

Just because our children disobey us and we refuse to give into their sins, by no means make us unloving parents.

We give them the free will to obey or get out. But just like the garden, Adam and Eve wanted to do what they wanted, not what God said. He said no fruit, they ate it anyway.

So like God, we let our children go, and till the ground and make their own mistakes.

There are laws, and rules that we are to follow.

The point of this whole story is this, Adam made his choice, to Disobey God and obey Eve.

Just like today when we do things our way we pay the dues. When we listen and do things the way God tells us we have a easier life. In this world and the next.

 

[rinnie]

They were innocdnt because nothing in God’s creation can be anything but inniocent unless and until they, themselves, participate in evil.

But they did participate in evil, they disobeyed God. And then after they did that instead of standing up to the plate and admitting it, they ran and hid, and they never took responsibility for what they did.

 

[fhansen]

But they did participate in evil, they disobeyed God. And then after they did that instead of standing up to the plate and admitting it, they ran and hid, and they never took responsibility for what they did.

That’s true. I think it was the “Go for it” statement that could’ve taken wrong. No big deal.

 

[rinnie]

That’s true. I think it was the “Go for it” statement that could’ve taken wrong. No big deal.

No problem dear. There is so many things God shows us and tells us. Amazing how much teaching we can get out of one scripture. And the lessons we learn.

 

[simpleas]

Actually we are speaking of People of today. You have to look at this in a deeper way.

Adam never said God I am sorry I disobeyed you, Eve never said God I am sorry I disobeyed you. They both tried to put the blame on someone else.

Although yes it is true they disobeyed God, you have to think of what sin is. Sin is death. Just like God said, you eat and you will die. But it was not a physical death it was spiritual death.

Just like today if we sin we are dead, not physically but spiritually in the soul. If we refuse to repent and admit that we used our free will to sin and disobey God, then we are the same as Adam and Eve. We will be thrown out also, but instead of the garden as Adam and Eve, its the eternal garden that we call heaven.

People miss much of the true understanding of this story. Its not just that we sin, its when we deny our sin that we will be forever separated from God. When you deny sin, you will not repent.

Look what truly happened, they heard God coming what did they do? They ran and hid, Why? They knew they sinned. But did they say Lord I am sorry for what I have done, I disobeyed you? No.

Adam never said I knew I should not have and I am sorry, first he tried to hide from God, then when that did not work instead of then repenting he tried to turn it around and blame it on God. He said YOU gave me the woman.

Then when it came to Eve she should have said I am sorry, I should have obeyed you, but she did not obey God she obeyed the devil. Again instead of admitting her sin, and guilt, she said the devil tricked me.

The devil never tricked her, she told the devil herself I am not allowed to eat it. She used free will to disobey God and listen to the devil.

This goes back to not just our sin, but our free will to sin and disobey God, and then not repent our sin.

Where in this story do you see Adam and Eve ever showing remorse for what they did?

The bottom line is they wanted to be God. They no longer wanted to obey God and his commands.

This is a great lesson here for all of us.

So the whole story is just a lesson of how we as humans will be inclined to do our own thing (be gods of our own making) and that two fully adult human and spiritual beings, ordered in goodness, never experiencing separation from God (until they sinned) need not be our first parents, but only an example of what we could be as complete humans if we will to do only Gods will and not our own?

We are talking about our first parents, not humans as they came to be, the first two were without sin…their offspring did not possess the original holiness and justice, because they lost it.

Adam never said God I am sorry I disobeyed you, Eve never said God I am sorry I disobeyed you. They both tried to put the blame on someone else

The blaming I can see, but with repentance, there is no mention of God giving that as an option (that I can see, corrections welcome) in the first three chapters of Genesis.
But if A&E knew all about what it would mean to be separated from God, and after the sin, actually felt this (death of the soul) then they most likely would have begged forgiveness.

People miss much of the true understanding of this story. Its not just that we sin, its when we deny our sin that we will be forever separated from God. When you deny sin, you will not repent.

They blame one another, but they don’t deny it. They didn’t try to say they never ate from the tree, the blame points at the tempter. We don’t get an account of if God asks them to repent and they refuse, we just know that they disobey the one command through temptation of the devil and then what God says will be the consequence for all three of them.

 

[simpleas]

They were innocdnt because nothing in God’s creation can be anything but inniocent unless and until they, themselves, participate in evil.

If they were innocent then they would not have knowledge of evil until they ate. If they had the knowledge of evil then they were not innocent.

innocent (ˈɪnəsənt)
adj

1. not corrupted or tainted with evil or unpleasant emotion; sinless; pure
2. (Law) not guilty of a particular crime; blameless
3. (foll by: of) free (of); lacking: innocent of all knowledge of history.

a. harmless or innocuous: an innocent game.

b. not cancerous: an innocent tumour.

1. credulous, naive, or artless
2. simple-minded; slow-witted

n
7. an innocent person, esp a young child or an ingenuous adult

1. a simple-minded person; simpleton

Correction to # 8 Simpleton = Simpleas