Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

[fhansen]

If they were innocent then they would not have knowledge of evil until they ate. If they had the knowledge of evil then they were not innocent.

innocent (ˈɪnəsənt)
adj

1. not corrupted or tainted with evil or unpleasant emotion; sinless; pure
2. (Law) not guilty of a particular crime; blameless
3. (foll by: of) free (of); lacking: innocent of all knowledge of history.

a. harmless or innocuous: an innocent game.

b. not cancerous: an innocent tumour.

1. credulous, naive, or artless
2. simple-minded; slow-witted

n
7. an innocent person, esp a young child or an ingenuous adult

1. a simple-minded person; simpleton

Correction to # 8 Simpleton = Simpleas

So God created non-innocent people? Do you really think Adam & Eve would’ve known -or had reason to know-all the evils that would come to transpire if they disoebeyed God? That they lived with that knoweldge- in Eden? That’s conjecture, specualtion. We read in Genesis that they were simply told not to disobey by eating of the fruit-and that in so doing they would die. Only afterwards were their eyes opened-they had changed. And more consequences were related to them at that time-immediately after the Fall.

Don’t you think that A&E lost something they previously had, including an original innocence, by directly experiencing evil in a manner they never before conceived that it could be known? Don’t you think they may’ve* learned* something in the ensuing years-that would’ve taught them of the perfection of God’s will-and the foolishness of disobeying it? What might’ve they learned? What did they come to know, that God already knew?

Innocence is not a bad word; naivete regarding evil should be prized; the pride of fallen man may make us repulesd by innocence in some way but in God’s will we’re to come to Him like little children. The experience of evil may play its part in robbing us of our innocence but also, hopefully, it can play its role in making us covet it again, and with the help of grace we can ultimately regain it.

 

[fhansen]

So the whole story is just a lesson of how we as humans will be inclined to do our own thing (be gods of our own making) and that two fully adult human and spiritual beings, ordered in goodness, never experiencing separation from God (until they sinned) need not be our first parents, but only an example of what we could be as complete humans if we will to do only Gods will and not our own?

We are talking about our first parents, not humans as they came to be, the first two were without sin…their offspring did not possess the original holiness and justice, because they lost it.

I really doubt that’s how rinnie meant it-the story isn’t either/or but both/and. If we look we can see echoes of A&E’s very real first sin in our own behavior and mentailties. And so we can relate to and identify with OS, experiencing it within our own beings.

The blaming I can see, but with repentance, there is no mention of God giving that as an option (that I can see, corrections welcome) in the first three chapters of Genesis.
But if A&E knew all about what it would mean to be separated from God, and after the sin, actually felt this (death of the soul) then they most likely would have begged forgiveness.

Salvation requires time, time spent in the pigsty like the Prodigal-that’s what we’re here for-to learn of our need for the Father.

They blame one another, but they don’t deny it. They didn’t try to say they never ate from the tree, the blame points at the tempter. We don’t get an account of if God asks them to repent and they refuse, we just know that they disobey the one command through temptation of the devil and then what God says will be the consequence for all three of them.

It’s interesting that Aquinas and Augustine agree that the devil has very little to do with it all in the end. Sin is in the will; man is finally carried away by his own lusts.

 

[simpleas]

So God created non-innocent people? Do you really think Adam & Eve would’ve known -or had reason to know-all the evils that would come to transpire if they disoebeyed God? That they lived with that knoweldge- in Eden? That’s conjecture, specualtion. We read in Genesis that they were simply told not to disobey by eating of the fruit-and that in so doing they would die. Only afterwards were their eyes opened-they had changed. And more consequences were related to them at that time-immediately after the Fall.

Don’t you think that A&E lost something they previously had, including an original innocence, by directly experiencing evil in a manner they never before conceived that it could be known? Don’t you think they may’ve* learned* something in the ensuing years-that would’ve taught them of the perfection of God’s will-and the foolishness of disobeying it? What might’ve they learned? What did they come to know, that God already knew?

Innocence is not a bad word; naivete regarding evil should be prized; the pride of fallen man may make us repulesd by innocence in some way but in God’s will we’re to come to Him like little children. The experience of evil may play its part in robbing us of our innocence but also, hopefully, it can play its role in making us covet it again, and with the help of grace we can ultimately regain it.

So God created non-innocent people? Maybe, I have never met a person who is free of sin.

*Do you really think Adam & Eve would’ve known -or had reason to know-all the evils that would come to transpire if they disoebeyed God? *

Maybe not all the evils, but didn’t they have knowledge of what it would be like to be separate from God? So to me, if they had this knowledge and still went ahead with disobedience they could not be innocent. If they did not know what separation from God meant, then God just allows two purely innocent humans to be tested in a way that would be very unfair. To eat or not to eat, that was a choice, there is no choice if they didn’t have an understanding of what death meant.
So God places a tree in the garden, knowing they will eat of it, but he must have given them a understanding of what would happen should they eat, they still desired to eat of it anyway.

Don’t you think that A&E lost something they previously had, including an original innocence, by directly experiencing evil in a manner they never before conceived that it could be known?

No, because I’m working through how O.S is past onto all from the disobedience of the first two humans. How they lost everyones connection with God. All they seem to loose for the human race was immortality, they corrupted their own spiritual soul. They gained a knowledge of good and evil. By this knowledge they then learned or relearned what they already knew to be truth, that they couldn’t do anything without God.

 

[simpleas]

I really doubt that’s how rinnie meant it-the story isn’t either/or but both/and. If we look we can see echoes of A&E’s very real first sin in our own behavior and mentailties. And so we can relate to and identify with OS, experiencing it within our own beings.

Salvation requires time, time spent in the pigsty like the Prodigal-that’s what we’re here for-to learn of our need for the Father.

It’s interesting that Aquinas and Augustine agree that the devil has very little to do with it all in the end. Sin is in the will; man is finally carried away by his own lusts.

Well rinnie can clarify

How can we not see echoes of A&E’s first sin, we are told we reject Gods will every time we seek something our church tells us is mortal sin. We must separate ourself from God everytime we engage our freewill. Even being baptised, O.S is wiped away, but the effects remain. So we are no longer separated from God because of baptism, but sooner or later we will disobey God as did A&E. So we loose our innocences, making A&E no different from us, yet they were created with O.H and O.J, but having those gifts they still choose their will not Gods.

The devil tempted them. You say, sin is in the will, so if they were free of sin wouldn’t their will have been Gods and not their own, as they were sinless to begin with?

 

[fhansen]

The devil tempted them. You say, sin is in the will, so if they were free of sin wouldn’t their will have been Gods and not their own, as they were sinless to begin with?

Our wills are our own, that’s what makes them free-and that’s the only reason sin is even possible at all. We decide whether or not we’ll align with God’s will, or the devil’s or whoever’s.

The real questions comes down to, how cuplable was Adam? If God made him with some kind of total knowledge, perfect in that sense, and yet man still fell, who’s responsible? Weren’t the angels held to a higher accountability for their own rebellion due to being in possession of a greater or more perfect knowledge? The point is that any created being’s knowledge will be non-absolute, it will be relative in comparison to God’s perfect knowledge-and yet still sufficient to make the creature morally responsible. And yet, in the case of man’s knowledge, still able to grow, which makes our wills malleable.

 

[fhansen]

So God created non-innocent people? Maybe, I have never met a person who is free of sin.

But then, again, you never met A&E. The problem is that, if God made non-innocent people, people for whom sin was inevitable IOW, then He’s the author of sin; God would be responsible for it, not them. Sin was an option for them, as it was for Mary, who remained sinless.

 

[simpleas]

Our wills are our own, that’s what makes them free-and that’s the only reason sin is even possible at all. We decide whether or not we’ll align with God’s will, or the devil’s or whoever’s.

The real questions comes down to, how cuplable was Adam? If God made him with some kind of total knowledge, perfect in that sense, and yet man still fell, who’s responsible? Weren’t the angels held to a higher accountability for their own rebellion due to being in possession of a greater or more perfect knowledge? The point is that any created being’s knowledge will be non-absolute, it will be relative in comparison to God’s perfect knowledge-and yet still sufficient to make the creature morally responsible. And yet, in the case of man’s knowledge, still able to grow, which makes our wills malleable.

Yes our wills are our own, but they seem to be only free when they are ordered towards Gods will not our own. (thy will be done) God gives freewill so we can choose his will or our own, obviously Gods will is better than ours, if we choose our will then we choose evil, although I could be wrong. But that evil may bring about a greater good, in some cases, not all.

Man would still be responsible, because he thought he would be like God, he trusted the snakes words, he wanted to grow in knowledge and power regardless of what might be the out come.

or

The devil is responsible because he tricked man into believing he would not die.

 

[simpleas]

But then, again, you never met A&E. The problem is that, if God made non-innocent people, people for whom sin was inevitable IOW, then He’s the author of sin; God would be responsible for it, not them. Sin was an option for them, as it was for Mary, who remained sinless.

Exactly, never met A&E

God already knew what evil was, if the angel of light fell by his rebellion against God and there was a war in heaven, he still went ahead with his creation of humans, knowing they too would fall.
I don’t believe God is responsible for any of the evil in which man creates.

 

[fhansen]

**“The tree was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not because it had the power to cause knowledge, but because of the sequel: by eating of it man learned by experience the difference between the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience.”
**
Any thoughts on this Aquinas quote from his “Compendium of Theology”? It appears that, for him, the name of the tree speaks of learning by experience that which God had already commanded, experience that would follow from his sin.

 

[fhansen]

IMO this is very important. Because it tells us a great deal about ourselves and why we’re here. We have much in common with Adam. With him all of humanity is here to learn something. This explains why God would allow Adam to fall knowing full well it would happen.

We’re here to do more than be baptized, receive the sacraments, refrain from mortal sin and confess/repent if we don’t. We’re here to fall in love with God, as we come to learn of His goodness and wisdom and therefore why obedience of Him is good. We’re to come to know and fall in love with good, as we also experience its opposite, evil. This is how the divine Potter molds us. This is how He writes His laws in our minds. This is how sin is excluded within us. And this is the purpose of the Church, her message and ministry.

 

[rinnie]

So the whole story is just a lesson of how we as humans will be inclined to do our own thing (be gods of our own making) and that two fully adult human and spiritual beings, ordered in goodness, never experiencing separation from God (until they sinned) need not be our first parents, but only an example of what we could be as complete humans if we will to do only Gods will and not our own?

We are talking about our first parents, not humans as they came to be, the first two were without sin…their offspring did not possess the original holiness and justice, because they lost it.

Adam never said God I am sorry I disobeyed you, Eve never said God I am sorry I disobeyed you. They both tried to put the blame on someone else

The blaming I can see, but with repentance, there is no mention of God giving that as an option (that I can see, corrections welcome) in the first three chapters of Genesis.
But if A&E knew all about what it would mean to be separated from God, and after the sin, actually felt this (death of the soul) then they most likely would have begged forgiveness.

People miss much of the true understanding of this story. Its not just that we sin, its when we deny our sin that we will be forever separated from God. When you deny sin, you will not repent.

They blame one another, but they don’t deny it. They didn’t try to say they never ate from the tree, the blame points at the tempter. We don’t get an account of if God asks them to repent and they refuse, we just know that they disobey the one command through temptation of the devil and then what God says will be the consequence for all three of them.

Really, Can you show me the scripture when Adam said Yes God I disobeyed you and ate the Apple knowing quite clear that I would disobey you but I did it anyway, And I am sorry, I was wrong to disobey you. Please forgive me for what I have done.

You claim if they felt the (death of the soul, separation from God) that they would have repented. So what do you call the I heard you, but I was afraid, because I was naked. Did Adam wear clothes before?? Don’t you agree that being afraid would indeed be a separation from God, If not why did they not hide from him before they ate, Why were they not afraid from God before they ate?

No, that is not at all what happened.

God said who told you that your were naked? You have eaten, then from the tree which I have forbidden you to eat. (Do you really think God did not know it before he approached Adam?) But he gave him a chance to repent. Why else did he ask who told you that you were naked?

He gave him 2 chances to repent. But how is repenting saying to God, The women YOU put here, she gave me fruit from the tree so I ate it.

So who was a fault God, Adam or Eve? What is your opinion.

Next if you steal from you neighbor with the neighbor kids, and your Dad approaches you because he finds out. And you say it is your fault, because you let me play with the neighbor kids??Really?

God said to Adam because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree which I HAVE forbidden you to eat…

You see God never said, your are right Adam, its my bad, I should not have put her here, its my fault. No God said you listen to your wife and did what I have forbidden you to do. Anotherward God said you will be responsible for your sin, not me, nor Eve, nor the devil.

Just like the Father will tell the child, you know that yu are not to steal, but you choose to do so, it is not my fault or the other children, you know I have forbidden you not to steal.

If the Child would have said Father I am sorry, I knew better but I was wrong and I deserve my punishment, do you not agree the Father would go easier on the Child?

Do you not think God would have accepted the apology of Adam and not gone easier on him?

But we will never know, because it never happened.

But we do know that no matter what sin we do, God will forgive us if we repent.

 

[rinnie]

**“The tree was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not because it had the power to cause knowledge, but because of the sequel: by eating of it man learned by experience the difference between the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience.”
**
Any thoughts on this Aquinas quote from his “Compendium of Theology”? It appears that, for him, the name of the tree speaks of learning by experience that which God had already commanded, experience that would follow from his sin.

Very Very Good! Exactly look at the life they had when they were in a State of Grace. A wonderful life. No hard work to do. Paradise.

But they wanted to be gods. Is that not what we become or try to become when we refuse to obey God. Because you either obey God or yourself.

The tree of life is when you choose God and are in a state of grace. The tree of knowledge of good and bad. Is just what it says, you experience good and bad.

Face forward to today. Do you choose the Tree of Life, do you believe in God and obey his commands.

Or do you choose the bad, do you choose to disobey God? Which indeed is the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.

But God came in Human form and fixed all that. He took away Original Sin, He died so we could live.

Now we have a fresh start. At our Baptism, we are new, Free from all sin.

But now because of the grace of God, we no longer HAVE to stay in sin, we can repent and be free from sin, But how many people today STILL refuse to repent? God did all he could possibly do for us, We must do the rest for ourself.

He made everything possible. When he said it is finished he meant it, He made it possible for all of us to be free from sin. But if we refuse to confess, repent, and obey we become like Adam and Eve, and will be thrown out of the Garden of Eden, which for us will be heaven.

 

[grannymh]

:twocents:

The problem is the angry, rejecting tone of the imagined reply. It isn’t in keeping with what a loving parent would do. Also, He didn’t sit back, but sent is Son to save and redeem us through His sacrifice on the cross and resurrection. Although we reject Him, He makes it possible to return to Him.

This reply is far better than the one I almost posted.

 

[rinnie]

Yes our wills are our own, but they seem to be only free when they are ordered towards Gods will not our own. (thy will be done) God gives freewill so we can choose his will or our own, obviously Gods will is better than ours, if we choose our will then we choose evil, although I could be wrong. But that evil may bring about a greater good, in some cases, not all.

Man would still be responsible, because he thought he would be like God, he trusted the snakes words, he wanted to grow in knowledge and power regardless of what might be the out come.

or

The devil is responsible because he tricked man into believing he would not die.

I have to disagree with you here. Sorry We cannot have free will only when we obey God, not ourself. If so it could not be free will.

And disobeying the will of God and doing evil can never be a greater good.

But only God can take that evil and use it to create a good. He can seem to clean up all of our messes, for the good of mankind.

The reason we choose good over evil is up to us. But we know that we should choose good because we want to be good and like God. WE want to imitate him because we love him.

The reason we choose evil is because we don’t care about the evil it creates, because we are only thinking our ourselves not others.

Jesus never said just look out for number 1. He said do unto others as you want them to do to you.

Adam and Eve knew right from wrong, just like we do. Eves exact words were only the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said you shall NOT eat, or even TOUCH IT!!

 

[rinnie]

The question “did A&E need to grow in knowledge and wisdom?”

I’d say yes, because if they were no different from us in body/soul, then I can relate to them through my need to grow in knowledge and wisdom.
They obviously knew they needed to grow in knowledge, because they trusted the words of another, God had told them not to eat of it, or they would die. Snake tells them they will not die and they will be like God knowing good and evil. So their thirst for knowledge and to be like God leads them down the wrong path. THEN they know what it means to be without God, they have this experiential knowledge that they didn’t have before.

If they had known good and evil, but not experienced it, then I can’t relate to them, because to me, they would be a different type of human being, incapable of rightly choosing good/evil. They would know of it, but not completely because they would not have committed a good act or a evil act. Not because I think they needed this experience as such, but that they wouldn’t seem like your average human being, they would be somehow higher than us…if you get my opinion?

Same with morals, as they were the only Two humans in the garden, they were ordered to be morally good, but how would they know what morals were if their standards would never have dropped?

Look what you said you said the devil said they would be like God knowing good and evil.

That is not what was said, the devil said No GOD knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and YOU will be gods who know what is good and bad.

We are forbidden to be gods.

 

[grannymh]

Given that the original Adam & Logic thread, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=785994,

was closed due to the 1,000 posts limit, this 2nd Edition will continue exploring some of the original propositions. In addition, we should pay attention to St. Thomas Aquinas’ writings on Adam and relative issues. The ultimate goal is to demonstrate the real existence of Adam and his spouse Eve, which in turn is the foundation for some necessary Catholic doctrines.

I like the Deductive Method of Reasoning because truth follows truth. The key is that the first truths (axioms) need to be accepted as true. Following propositions or hypotheses need to be demonstrated as truth either by their logical connection to the initial axioms or by proper demonstrations of their truth. While the Deductive Method of Reasoning is my preference, there is a place for the Inductive Method of Reasoning.

Up front, I use the Catholic Church for basic truths. The source is the *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. *
Links. Please read CCC, 18-22 first for the explanation of smaller print.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

General information source is CCC, “The Creator” beginning with paragraph 279; CCC, “Man” beginning with paragraph 355; CCC, “The Fall” beginning with paragraph 385; CCC, 1730-1733; and related cross-references in the margins. Additional information from other sources is appreciated.

Please read and respect the sticky notes at the top of this Forum.

Post 992 in the original Adam & Logic thread gives three working axioms (true statements).
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11805951&postcount=992

1. God as Creator exists.
   Therefore,
2. God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.
   Therefore,
3. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.

A hearty welcome to all future participants.

These words The ultimate goal is to demonstrate the real existence of Adam and his spouse Eve, which in turn is the foundation for some necessary Catholic doctrines. are the heart of this thread.

Shall we return to the topic and discuss the Catholic teachings which can be used to demonstrate the real existence of Adam and his spouse Eve?

 

[simpleas]

Really, Can you show me the scripture when Adam said Yes God I disobeyed you and ate the Apple knowing quite clear that I would disobey you but I did it anyway, And I am sorry, I was wrong to disobey you. Please forgive me for what I have done.

You claim if they felt the (death of the soul, separation from God) that they would have repented. So what do you call the I heard you, but I was afraid, because I was naked. Did Adam wear clothes before?? Don’t you agree that being afraid would indeed be a separation from God, If not why did they not hide from him before they ate, Why were they not afraid from God before they ate?

No, that is not at all what happened.

God said who told you that your were naked? You have eaten, then from the tree which I have forbidden you to eat. (Do you really think God did not know it before he approached Adam?) But he gave him a chance to repent. Why else did he ask who told you that you were naked?

He gave him 2 chances to repent. But how is repenting saying to God, The women YOU put here, she gave me fruit from the tree so I ate it.

So who was a fault God, Adam or Eve? What is your opinion.

Next if you steal from you neighbor with the neighbor kids, and your Dad approaches you because he finds out. And you say it is your fault, because you let me play with the neighbor kids??Really?

God said to Adam because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree which I HAVE forbidden you to eat…

You see God never said, your are right Adam, its my bad, I should not have put her here, its my fault. No God said you listen to your wife and did what I have forbidden you to do. Anotherward God said you will be responsible for your sin, not me, nor Eve, nor the devil.

Just like the Father will tell the child, you know that yu are not to steal, but you choose to do so, it is not my fault or the other children, you know I have forbidden you not to steal.

If the Child would have said Father I am sorry, I knew better but I was wrong and I deserve my punishment, do you not agree the Father would go easier on the Child?

Do you not think God would have accepted the apology of Adam and not gone easier on him?

But we will never know, because it never happened.

But we do know that no matter what sin we do, God will forgive us if we repent.

I said* if* A&E knew what it would be like to be separated from God, then they would have repented.

From Grannymh’s post 211

Adam knew the goodness of God and because he has a rational soul, he can figure out what the absence of God would be like.

So if he could figure this out, he would have known, but until he acted upon it he never felt by the experience what Evil was.

I asked how would Adam have known what separation from God would be like, the answer I got in post 226 made me think that as I know what most things in life may feel like, that I don’t need to experience because I know they are evil, but it seems Adam’s rational soul was very different from mine.

I can see the being afraid could be a separation from God yes. But I read it only as fear of God, because on eating of the tree they know what is good and what is evil.

 

[simpleas]

I have to disagree with you here. Sorry We cannot have free will only when we obey God, not ourself. If so it could not be free will.

And disobeying the will of God and doing evil can never be a greater good.

But only God can take that evil and use it to create a good. He can seem to clean up all of our messes, for the good of mankind.

The reason we choose good over evil is up to us. But we know that we should choose good because we want to be good and like God. WE want to imitate him because we love him.

The reason we choose evil is because we don’t care about the evil it creates, because we are only thinking our ourselves not others.

Jesus never said just look out for number 1. He said do unto others as you want them to do to you.

Adam and Eve knew right from wrong, just like we do. Eves exact words were only the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said you shall NOT eat, or even TOUCH IT!!

I said :

Yes our wills are our own, but they seem to be only free when they are ordered towards Gods will not our own. (thy will be done) God gives freewill so we can choose his will or our own, obviously Gods will is better than ours,

Meaning we are to find freedom in doing the will of God, not what we will.

Yep, A&E knew right from wrong, choose wrong and passed it on to us

 

[simpleas]

Look what you said you said the devil said they would be like God knowing good and evil.

That is not what was said, the devil said No GOD knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and YOU will be gods who know what is good and bad.

We are forbidden to be gods.

Ok thankyou for the correction of God to Gods.

I think its when I read :

*And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. *

Which sounds like he became like God, rather than like Gods, because there is only one God. But of course A&E thought they would become Gods themselves.

Thanks for your replies

 

[simpleas]

IMO this is very important. Because it tells us a great deal about ourselves and why we’re here. We have much in common with Adam. With him all of humanity is here to learn something. This explains why God would allow Adam to fall knowing full well it would happen.

We’re here to do more than be baptized, receive the sacraments, refrain from mortal sin and confess/repent if we don’t. We’re here to fall in love with God, as we come to learn of His goodness and wisdom and therefore why obedience of Him is good. We’re to come to know and fall in love with good, as we also experience its opposite, evil. This is how the divine Potter molds us. This is how He writes His laws in our minds. This is how sin is excluded within us. And this is the purpose of the Church, her message and ministry.

I understand what you are saying and agree with much of it. But A&E had the gifts of O.H and O.J. How can we think that, if they “walked with God” they still needed to grow in wisdom etc of God? Thinking they had this, and all the comforts of a peaceful garden, but still desired to be their own God’s is hard.
We have to work very hard in the world we are born into, some people more than others, yes we can do the good that helps one another and ask God always for his help and mercy.
To think that the first two humans had it “easy” and lost it all, the way it should have been is like a fairy tale of sorts.