Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

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One reason the doctrine of original sin makes sense to me is that I’m continuously witness to, in myself as well as in the world around me, an unreasonable behavior, the ability of people to not only act selfishly but to justify selfish acts by twisting the truth to be what they prefer it to be: to play God IOW. This can be subtle until we’re sensitive to it, but we’re all affected by it in any case. It’s simply human self-righteousness, a “righteousness” or moral position not necessarily based on truth but rather on my desires, not on God’s righteousness IOW, thinking of Phil 3. This means that the world of human affairs, unlike the rest of creation, isn’t necessarily aligned with God’s will, aligned with Reality. as our newspapers should attest to daily. And this unreasonableness manifests itself in everyone eventually, and is known as “sin”, or “moral evil”. The universality of this apparent anomaly-and the pain and harm it causes- brings me to the conclusion me that there would’ve originally been a “better way”, a time where truth was abided by, even if it may not as yet have been consciously valued. The doctrine of OS, where a single set of parents committed the first breach with Reality, stepping away from Truth, causing all of the humanity that followed to likewise fall from a greater height, makes sense to me in light of the crazy world I find myself in, filled with both good and evil, truth and untruth. Here I can experience both the need for love, and the lack of that very virtue that results when humans run the show, when we are effectively in control of our own morality.
This is an excellent response for many reasons. I am still chewing on it. And I am still testing it. Note: While we refer to the philosophical method and the scientific method, the reality is that when we are searching for truth, both methods can be appropriately useful.

Clarification needed. It looks like this sentence was truncated. “It’s simply human self-righteousness, a “righteousness” or moral position not necessarily based on truth but rather on my desires, not on God’s righteousness IOW, thinking of Phil 3.” What does Phil 3 refer to?

At this point in time, the reference to *unreasonable behavior *appears to be a key element which has universal implications; therefore it can be used as a true axiom in the deductive method. Adam, being human, would understand unreasonable behavior.(Information source. CCC 1730-1732) In my humble opinion, understanding unreasonable behavior (Adam has a rational spiritual soul) is more comprehensive than having to experience evil before knowing what evil was. Comprehensive in the sense of Adam using the intellective reasoning skills of human nature per se. All of us should be able to recognize forms of unreasonable behavior. Obviously, there are times when individual humans cannot do this. This handicap is due to some kind of impediment and not because the person’s human nature is inherently different from others.
 
Clarification needed. It looks like this sentence was truncated. “It’s simply human self-righteousness, a “righteousness” or moral position not necessarily based on truth but rather on my desires, not on God’s righteousness IOW, thinking of Phil 3.” What does Phil 3 refer to?
Yes, I was trying to keep the word count down a bit. 🙂 The first part of Phil 3 basically speaks of the difference between the old and new covenants. St Paul tells us that, as a Pharisee in good standing, he* excelled* in obedience to the Law. And yet he counts it all as garbage compared to knowing Christ. He goes on to say that, beforehand, his “righteousness” was his own, even as it was based on the Law. But that now he’s found another righteousness-the true righteousness, the righteousness of God-which is based on faith. This faith is a coming-to-know-God: reference the most important New Covenant prophecy, Jer 31, verse 34 in this case:
"No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,
declares the Lord. ”

Jesus came to usher in this covenant, reconciling man with God so that they may authentically commune again, as was always intended, as justice/order demands. Even while “under the Law”, as Scripture puts it, even while bound by the Old Covenant, man can’t be righteous, even if he could obey perfectly, because* God* must do the writing of the Law on our hearts (Jer 31:33); righteousness comes from God alone. Adam had departed from God, in favor of his own “righteousness”, determining right and wrong for himself. But Jesus informs us in John 15:5 that,** “Apart from Me you can do nothing”**. So just hearing and knowing the Law is insufficient, even after God gave it to Moses. “God wrote on tables of the Law what men did not read in their hearts”, St Augustine tells us. God wants us to clearly read it in our hearts again, but this is a matter of grace, of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, initiated by God and received by faith. Mere external obedience of the law does not effect this communion, it cannot justify us because it’s only a show of holiness; it’s not based on faith-it’s still me, trying to achieve or demonstrate righteousness on my own, as if I already possessed that righteousness for and within myself. But that, self-righteousness, is actually the problem with man, not the solution. So, good as it is as a reflection of God’s eternal law, the revealed Law, as both Scripture and the Catechism tell us, was meant to be a teacher, teaching us that *we cannot obey it, *sufficiently, properly, as intended. Man must be in communion with God first, then *He *does the justifying: we’re not already just, apart from Him, much as we naturally like to suppose we are. Again, self-righteousness is man’s ugliness, it’s our unrighteousness, it’s the cause of all the moral evil in the world: man wanting to be God and ending up a foolish little “god”, sometimes dangerously so.
At this point in time, the reference to *unreasonable behavior *appears to be a key element which has universal implications; therefore it can be used as a true axiom in the deductive method. Adam, being human, would understand unreasonable behavior.(Information source. CCC 1730-1732) In my humble opinion, understanding unreasonable behavior (Adam has a rational spiritual soul) is more comprehensive than having to experience evil before knowing what evil was. Comprehensive in the sense of Adam using the intellective reasoning skills of human nature per se. All of us should be able to recognize forms of unreasonable behavior. Obviously, there are times when individual humans cannot do this. This handicap is due to some kind of impediment and not because the person’s human nature is inherently different from others.
And yet otherwise “reasonable” humans do unreasonable things all the time. Theologians maintain that sin/moral evil is always an act opposed to the dictates of right reason, as well as opposed to God’s law. Adam’s sin, as well, was extremely unreasonable, considering that by it he defied and scorned God. He swallowed a lie, denying the Truth that was right in front of him. The first step into unrealityville. One seemingly small step for Adam, one giant leap for Adam-kind. Faith is the reversal of this, it’s the beginning of the knowledge of God, a gift, a dim foretaste, as the Church teaches, of that final vision where we’ll see Him “face to face”. 1 Cor 13:12
 
Nothing was missing, that is why they could choose to sin?

Oh, are you saying that because they didn’t possess the beatific vision , that is why they sinned? But that would be like someone saying that because they don’t actually “see” God, they have no need to obey God. This brings me back to They “walked” with God How was that exactly? They were in friendship also. We walk with God, have a friendship to a degree, either the same as they did and use of freewill, or they had a more powerful “walk” and friendship with God, that was “broken” upon sinning.

I know that no mortal can actually “see” the beatific vision, only when we are in the form of our soul, A&E were immortal humans, so perhaps they did “walk” “see” God?
I don’t think our ability to behold the BV has anything to do with our state; we’re never really ready for it anyway as it’s totally a gift, beyond our natural capabilities to obtain. In fact, I believe that some saints we’re given “glimpses” of this vision while on earth.

Either way, as to A&E’s culpability for their sin: It’s sort of a fine line we walk, I think. If we say that Adam & Eve were perfect in some way, in knowledge or wisdom, say, then we still have to ask, ‘Why, then, did they sin?’ Didn’t or couldn’t God make them “perfect enough” after all? Or did He make them sinners, giving them an evil will for some reason along with positive gifts? Or if we say that God purposely withheld enough knowledge for them to make the right choice, then how do we blame Adam & Eve?-God becomes the author of evil either way.

The truth lies somewhere in between IMO. Adam & Eve were given sufficient knowledge and gifts to be capable of refraining from sinning, and yet they possessed the less-than-perfection that all creation possesses in relation to God, who alone is perfect. But then, again, He’s allowing us to participate in our perfecting, in our justification, isn’t He, having created us in a “state of journeying” to perfection?
 
So some people think we came from a tribe of people rather than two individuals, some from evolution, and some believe what the bible says about being formed from the earth.

The second one we are allowed to believe aren’t we?

The first not, but I was thinking alittle about the first the other day. I could imagine God creating more than one set of first parents, only because it would cut out incest…because this became a very bad sin for the jewish people, as though it was something that should never happen, so why would God allow it to happen to his earlier children?

Just some thoughts 😃
Here is my :twocents:

Too many Catholics are stuck in the era of the Piltdown Man. In my humble opinion, it is time to look at what is actually being proposed as the 21st century theory of human origin that is a long-term population of a variety of first parents. Simple logic says that there can only be one set of *first parents. *

Regarding incest. I doubt that today’s science would be uncomfortable with incest because human origins (plural intended) is a breeding population or an interbreeding of various populations – which, by the way, are now being re-evaluated due to recent fossil finds. The days of the blissful Piltdown Man are gone forever. The plus side is that today’s “conclusions” are more demanding in regard to real substantial evidence based on proper methods and materials. In addition, old “conclusions” are being challenged by different disciplines such as archeology. In my humble opinion, the security of two first parents, Adam and Eve, is becoming more inviting each time I open a major science journal.

The practical issues of incest lie in the difference between the population in pre-Fall Garden of Eden and the Hebrew population. Here is an excellent CAF post with a practical approach.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11804019&postcount=346
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I don’t think our ability to behold the BV has anything to do with our state; we’re never really ready for it anyway as it’s totally a gift, beyond our natural capabilities to obtain. In fact, I believe that some saints we’re given “glimpses” of this vision while on earth.

Either way, as to A&E’s culpability for their sin: It’s sort of a fine line we walk, I think. If we say that Adam & Eve were perfect in some way, in knowledge or wisdom, say, then we still have to ask, ‘Why, then, did they sin?’ Didn’t or couldn’t God make them “perfect enough” after all? Or did He make them sinners, giving them an evil will for some reason along with positive gifts? Or if we say that God purposely withheld enough knowledge for them to make the right choice, then how do we blame Adam & Eve?-God becomes the author of evil either way.

The truth lies somewhere in between IMO. Adam & Eve were given sufficient knowledge and gifts to be capable of refraining from sinning, and yet they possessed the less-than-perfection that all creation possesses in relation to God, who alone is perfect. But then, again, He’s allowing us to participate in our perfecting, in our justification, isn’t He, having created us in a “state of journeying” to perfection?
If A&E were on a journey to perfection also, why say the had O.H and O.J. Why believe that the garden was a “heavenly” place, and the first people were in fact holy to begin with?
Why say that the first man committed the first ever sin that resulted in death of body and soul, and all the upheavel of all creation?
 
If A&E were on a journey to perfection also, why say the had O.H and O.J. Why believe that the garden was a “heavenly” place, and the first people were in fact holy to begin with?
Why say that the first man committed the first ever sin that resulted in death of body and soul, and all the upheavel of all creation?
Adam’s Original Holiness and Justice, aka Sanctifying Grace post-Fall, is the very means which enables Adam and ourselves to reach the perfect perfection of being in the presence of the Beatific Vision.

As for the garden being a “heavenly” place – no way according to Genesis 2:15.

As for the first sin ever, aka Original Sin, it was so extreme that it broke apart humanity’s (Adam and ourselves) relationship with our Creator. It is both the extreme act *and *extreme results which necessitates that only one person would be capable of committing Original Sin.
 
If A&E were on a journey to perfection also, why say the had O.H and O.J. Why believe that the garden was a “heavenly” place, and the first people were in fact holy to begin with?
Why say that the first man committed the first ever sin that resulted in death of body and soul, and all the upheavel of all creation?
Because God created His universe in a state of journeying, for one thing. If Adam & Eve possessed absolutely everything that they needed to possess in order to refrain from sin, perhaps they’d already be “like God”, which is something, the Church teaches, hadn’t yet occurred, prior to the OS; God intended to “divinize” them, Himself, at some point. But apparently this would require man’s cooperation, not his disobedience. He left the matter up to us; obedience is a matter of the will, informed by truth, truth that Adam wouldn’t yet accept apparently. Our wills, by being rightly aligned, IOW, contribute to our holiness, our perfection, simply because that’s how God set things up.

In any case, the catechism doesn’t teach that God created His world in a “state of journeying” to perfection only after Adam & Eve fell:
**310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection….

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it….**

Knowing the beginning from the end, God incorporated man’s fall into the perfecting of His creation.

I think a good question would be, Why didn’t God simply give the Beatific Vision, the immediate knowledge of Himself, to A & E from the get-go? The only answer that makes sense to me is that 1) He did give them enough knowledge to make the right choice, and 2) He wanted it nevertheless to be a highly esteemed goal, a struggle within ourselves to desire and strive for the “right thing”: He wants us to value the right thing as much as He does; He wants us to want it, and not simply be forced to take it. Our experience here on earth is meant to heighten that struggle, to develop our thirst for God as we experience the opposite, within our own members, as we directly come to know the consequences of separation from Him and all that entails: pain, suffering, and death: evil.
 
Adam’s Original Holiness and Justice, aka Sanctifying Grace post-Fall, is the very means which enables Adam and ourselves to reach the perfect perfection of being in the presence of the Beatific Vision.

As for the garden being a “heavenly” place – no way according to Genesis 2:15.

As for the first sin ever, aka Original Sin, it was so extreme that it broke apart humanity’s (Adam and ourselves) relationship with our Creator. It is both the extreme act *and *extreme results which necessitates that only one person would be capable of committing Original Sin.
Ok, so Adam was in the presence of the BV as he had O.H/O.J then, he already had it, he didn’t need to reach it like we do?

Genesis 2:15? God places Adam in the garden to keep it, when he was in a state of grace this was not hard work, I’ll assume he took pleasure in his work!
 
378 The sign of man’s familiarity with God is that God places him in the garden.255 There he lives “to till it and keep it”. Work is not yet a burden,256 but rather the collaboration of man and woman with God in perfecting the visible creation.

384 Revelation makes known to us the state of original holiness and justice of man and woman before sin: from their friendship with God flowed the happiness of their existence in paradise.
 
Because God created His universe in a state of journeying, for one thing. If Adam & Eve possessed absolutely everything that they needed to possess in order to refrain from sin, perhaps they’d already be “like God”, which is something, the Church teaches, hadn’t yet occurred, prior to the OS; God intended to “divinize” them, Himself, at some point. But apparently this would require man’s cooperation, not his disobedience. He left the matter up to us; obedience is a matter of the will, informed by truth, truth that Adam wouldn’t yet accept apparently. Our wills, by being rightly aligned, IOW, contribute to our holiness, our perfection, simply because that’s how God set things up.

In any case, the catechism doesn’t teach that God created His world in a “state of journeying” to perfection only after Adam & Eve fell:
**310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection….

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it….**

Knowing the beginning from the end, God incorporated man’s fall into the perfecting of His creation.

I think a good question would be, Why didn’t God simply give the Beatific Vision, the immediate knowledge of Himself, to A & E from the get-go? The only answer that makes sense to me is that 1) He did give them enough knowledge to make the right choice, and 2) He wanted it nevertheless to be a highly esteemed goal, a struggle within ourselves to desire and strive for the “right thing”: He wants us to value the right thing as much as He does; He wants us to want it, and not simply be forced to take it. Our experience here on earth is meant to heighten that struggle, to develop our thirst for God as we experience the opposite, within our own members, as we directly come to know the consequences of separation from Him and all that entails: pain, suffering, and death: evil.
That God created the universe, earth, creatures and humans in a state of journey I realise, what I stumble on is teaching the first two humans were created in O.H and O.J. If they were on a journey why give them all they had first, wouldn’t it make sense that they had to learn first what would be known as good and bad?

Learning this would seem proper to them, that they would understand, know and will what is Good for God and themselves, rather than having knowledge of all that is Good and then, without experience of bad, they go ahead and choose it.

The Angels fell before man was created, evil existed in the universe, maybe before the earth was created, I have been searching for info on the war in heaven before man ever came to be.

So evil was always going to be there, yet God knowing everything, still creates a creature with a soul and we know that God would still love these spiritual creatures, even when they disobey him, as long as they seek forgiveness for being as he allowed to be created (without O.H/O.J) which he had intended all to have. I’m not trying to blame God for Adam’s choice, but I see it as we can’t do anything without God, evil was placed in the garden by God, (the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the serpent was present) The tree and serpent could only be there if God willed them there in the first place.

Your question : Why didn’t God simply give the Beatific Vision, the immediate knowledge of Himself, to A & E from the get-go?

You see this is what I thought was the case in the beginning, that A&E did see God, know him and love him, and what they did was so very evil that they lost grace and fell with satan out of “heaven”.

When they sinned they not only wounded their nature, but all of creation. Their disobedience effected the whole earth, not just humans. Yet they were just creatures,made in the image of God, without any “power”.

Thanks for your post, it is interesting to ponder on this. 🙂
 
Gentle Readers,

The Beatific Vision was not present in the Garden of Eden because the Garden of Eden did not constitute Heaven. The Beatific Vision is God in His Heavenly glory.

Perhaps there is confusion because Adam’s human nature is an unique unification of the material world (decomposing anatomy) and the spiritual world (in the image of God). Perhaps there is confusion because it is difficult to understand God’s generous gift of immortality to Adam – an unearned gift which solely depended on Adam’s free decision to remain in friendship with God.

Perhaps confusion occurs because Adam had received Original Holiness and Justice for all human nature. If Adam had joyfully chosen to observe the requirements of his creaturely status – we do not know exactly how he and his descendants would enter heaven and thus see God face to face, aka Beatific Vision.

However, the logic of Adam does not include speculations which cannot be verified. In other words, we need to buckle down and do our homework.

Logically, it is safe to say that Adam’s human nature was transmitted by propagation to all humankind. Human nature is the key point way above all the speculations as to why Adam did this or that because this or that was in his nature which would have preserved him from errors. Or, on the other hand, Adam’s nature was deficient. There should be no speculative doubts about Adam’s nature – but these speculative doubts do exist. :o

Information source. CCC 374 -379; CCC 1730-1732; CCC 1023-1029: *CCC *Glossary, Beatific Vision, page 867; CCC Glossary, Heaven, page 881; CCC 404; CCC 355-421; CCC 360))
 
That God created the universe, earth, creatures and humans in a state of journey I realise, what I stumble on is teaching the first two humans were created in O.H and O.J. If they were on a journey why give them all they had first, wouldn’t it make sense that they had to learn first what would be known as good and bad?
But what all does Original Justice and Original Holiness mean? Does it necessary imply some sort of ultimate perfection? We were restored to the state of OH/OJ at baptism, but did that somehow preclude the possibility of our sinning? No, of course not.

And I think that it’s relevant that Trent taught that, even once justified, man can grow in more justice yet. And this makes sense because justification involves our being transformed into the image of God, whose justice knows no limits. And* this*, in my understanding, is because God’s justice is defined by* love*, and so is ours, and love has no limits.

The journey towards perfection might be unending, with humankind, even beginning in Eden, really only on the first stage of this journey, starting out sinless and returning to it by our reconcilation with God at baptism and then continuing to struggle and grow evermore in the justice He has for us.
 
I think we need to keep in mind that as awesome a being as Adam may have been, he was still a creature, still limited, and obliged to recognize those limitations relative to his Creator. And, simple as it sounds, I’d submit that those self-same limitations were also the very source of the possibility of sin, when combined with the gift of free will. In and by not recognizing his own limitations, Adam sinned. And yet, indirectly, only* because of his limitations, his creatureliness, could Adam sin. Presumably, in God’s plan, a perfected* created would recognize his limitations-and not will to disobey Him.
 
But what all does Original Justice and Original Holiness mean? Does it necessary imply some sort of ultimate perfection? We were restored to the state of OH/OJ at baptism, but did that somehow preclude the possibility of our sinning? No, of course not.

And I think that it’s relevant that Trent taught that, even once justified, man can grow in more justice yet. And this makes sense because justification involves our being transformed into the image of God, whose justice knows no limits. And* this*, in my understanding, is because God’s justice is defined by* love*, and so is ours, and love has no limits.

The journey towards perfection might be unending, with humankind, even beginning in Eden, really only on the first stage of this journey, starting out sinless and returning to it by our reconcilation with God at baptism and then continuing to struggle and grow evermore in the justice He has for us.
A&E had O.H/O.J. We are born in a state of O.S, once baptised have O.H/O.J. We all sin, so we are no different and they were no different from us.

Goodness/badness could be said to be part of the human nature God gave us from the beginning.

We were made as creatures, but God gave us a soul to help us become more than a creature.
 
A&E had O.H/O.J. We are born in a state of O.S, once baptised have O.H/O.J. We all sin, so we are no different and they were no different from us.

Goodness/badness could be said to be part of the human nature God gave us from the beginning.

We were made as creatures, but God gave us a soul to help us become more than a creature.
IDK. But in any case God could not have given us badness. There’s nothing bad about human nature, even in the fallen state, because it’s simply lacking something it once had as a result of Adam’s sin rather than having been created with “badness”. We* are* inherently* inferior* to God, however, and in this way we might be considered less good, but only in the relative sense. In any case we were created with sufficient gifts to be able to remain in the righteous state we were created in, but Adam chose otherwise anyway.
 
IDK. But in any case God could not have given us badness. There’s nothing bad about human nature, even in the fallen state, because it’s simply lacking something it once had as a result of Adam’s sin rather than having been created with “badness”. We* are* inherently* inferior* to God, however, and in this way we might be considered less good, but only in the relative sense. In any case we were created with sufficient gifts to be able to remain in the righteous state we were created in, but Adam chose otherwise anyway.
IDK ? :o

So what is that lacking something we once had because of Adam’s choice?

It was O.H/O.J?

I’m not saying humans are bad natured as such, I think most of us are good natured, or else the world would be an even worse place to live.
What my little speculative brain keeps nagging at is how we should believe that the first two humans are the cause of sin in the world.
We need to blame the choice of two first humans for why there are people who choose to do evil, even people who are baptised and claim to be christian.

And I still have trouble thinking that if God gives us a soul at conception, we still receive a fallen nature, when it’s our soul that animates the body. Why not God lets us be born in his O.H/O.J and when we grow and understand the knowledge of good and evil we can be helped by baptism etc. But that would be saying we are sinless until a certain age, when we must accept we are sinners upon birth.
 
IDK=I don’t know
So what is that lacking something we once had because of Adam’s choice?

It was O.H/O.J?

I’m not saying humans are bad natured as such, I think most of us are good natured, or else the world would be an even worse place to live.
What my little speculative brain keeps nagging at is how we should believe that the first two humans are the cause of sin in the world.
We need to blame the choice of two first humans for why there are people who choose to do evil, even people who are baptised and claim to be christian.

And I still have trouble thinking that if God gives us a soul at conception, we still receive a fallen nature, when it’s our soul that animates the body. Why not God lets us be born in his O.H/O.J and when we grow and understand the knowledge of good and evil we can be helped by baptism etc. But that would be saying we are sinless until a certain age, when we must accept we are sinners upon birth.
And yet isn’t it obvious that we don’t walk with God now, that we must learn of Him via revelation, even though He’s as close to us our own souls? And does it make sense that we should walk with Him, that we need to, that moral “badness” would disappear from the world if man knew, trusted, and loved God?
 
IDK ? :o

. . . What my little speculative brain keeps nagging at is how we should believe that the first two humans are the cause of sin in the world.
We need to blame the choice of two first humans for why there are people who choose to do evil, even people who are baptised and claim to be christian.

And I still have trouble thinking that if God gives us a soul at conception, we still receive a fallen nature, when it’s our soul that animates the body. Why not God lets us be born in his O.H/O.J and when we grow and understand the knowledge of good and evil we can be helped by baptism etc. But that would be saying we are sinless until a certain age, when we must accept we are sinners upon birth.
I don’t see the same issues.
Adam is not the cause of sin so much as it is that through him, sin entered the world.
Scripture, in addition to describing how the Word has manifested Himself in history, describes how His enemy - sin proliferated in the world, sort of like a viral contagion, but generated by ourselves.
I sin through my own human will.
We are not angels, each a species in itself. We are described as being one body in Adam and in Christ.
 
IDK ? :o

So what is that lacking something we once had because of Adam’s choice?

It was O.H/O.J?

I’m not saying humans are bad natured as such, I think most of us are good natured, or else the world would be an even worse place to live.
What my little speculative brain keeps nagging at is how we should believe that the first two humans are the cause of sin in the world.
We need to blame the choice of two first humans for why there are people who choose to do evil, even people who are baptised and claim to be christian.

And I still have trouble thinking that if God gives us a soul at conception, we still receive a fallen nature, when it’s our soul that animates the body. Why not God lets us be born in his O.H/O.J and when we grow and understand the knowledge of good and evil we can be helped by baptism etc. But that would be saying we are sinless until a certain age, when we must accept we are sinners upon birth.
Please accept my sincere apology regarding your recent posts.

It would take me hours to figure out what exactly is being said and what exactly is being questioned and what exactly Catholicism teaches and what exactly are the basic truths which are being explained or are being questioned. And by that time, we would be close to the 1,000 post limit and I would be six feet under.
:o

Seriously,
If you are willing, I am willing to start with one or three basic truths which you totally understand as being taught by the Catholic Church. In my personal opinion, one is always free to believe or not believe as long as the teaching is understood correctly.

Once we have a proper understanding of some basic Catholic truths, we can continue, along the line of deductive reasoning, to more truths which may be questionable. Picture a wonderful tree growing strong from firm roots.

Years ago, I landed on CAF and found out that Adam and Eve were not real according to some, not all, people. Since then, I have been studying how to establish Adam’s reality. In order to do that, I find that there are all kinds of Catholic doctrines related to Adam. That can be overwhelming. Consequently, if we start with some solid basic truths and branch out (pun intended), I believe we can answer most, maybe not all, questions.
 
IDK=I don’t know

And yet isn’t it obvious that we don’t walk with God now, that we must learn of Him via revelation, even though He’s as close to us our own souls? And does it make sense that we should walk with Him, that we need to, that moral “badness” would disappear from the world if man knew, trusted, and loved God?
Ok, I’m not really talking about walking or not walking with God, but of course we must learn about God. I’m thinking more on the separation from God because of a choice the two first parents made. That separation happened and Christ restores that separation. What doesn’t make clear sense to me yet, is from the O.T God talks to many people (prophets) so through them they helped the people remain aware of God, yet the way I have come to think of God is that we all are his children, he gave us all an individual soul, Christ taught that the kingdom of God is inside of us, so how are we separated from God before baptism?
 
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