Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

[grannymh]

What’s the point of having freewill then? I mean if one can not use their freewill, meaning their own will in order to grow, they wouldn’t be able to recognise the need to do God’s will in order to find peace/happiness etc.

Each time you attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass – that is exactly using your free will in order to grow in your relationship with God. When you looked at your clock, you made a free will choice between going to Church or going somewhere else. Being at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is God’s will. When you choose, with your free will, to receive Jesus in Holy Communion, there is peace in addition to pouring one’s heart out to Jesus Himself.

 

[grannymh]

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Cristo_crucificado.jpg/300px-Cristo_crucificado.jpg

For God so loved the world …
John 3: 16-17

Painting by Diego Velazquez
1632

 

[simpleas]

My point was that there’s *nothing *wrong with using free will; it’s not the use, but the abuse, that gets us into trouble. Other than that, Adam’s sin was not the end of the world for man anyway. He just needed to find out, the hard way, that God is unfathomably good and trustworthy and worthy of our obedience, so that he, Adam, as well as ourselves, may choose rightly

I think we can know that God is good and trustworthy, without having to endure our human suffering. I suppose this doesn’t make sense…

 

[simpleas]

Each time you attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass – that is exactly using your free will in order to grow in your relationship with God. When you looked at your clock, you made a free will choice between going to Church or going somewhere else. Being at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is God’s will. When you choose, with your free will, to receive Jesus in Holy Communion, there is peace in addition to pouring one’s heart out to Jesus Himself.

Thank you grannymh for this little reminder.

 

[fhansen]

I think we can know that God is good and trustworthy, without having to endure our human suffering. I suppose this doesn’t make sense…

Then why, would you suppose, that Adam didn’t trust God’s word? Do you think he truly grasped God’s glory, His wisdom, His perfect, incomparable goodness? Do you think he understood his need for God? Did Adam understand all of that perfectly and yet want to die, want to disassociate himself from the order of the universe, want to suffer the consequences that an all-wise, all-knowing God forewarned him about?

 

[Beircheart]

I think we can know that God is good and trustworthy, without having to endure our human suffering. I suppose this doesn’t make sense…

The human condition, which includes our sufferings, is an inherent part of this world. It is what it is and it is what God created it to be. Part of trusting in God is trusting that the struggles and strife humanity has to cope with in this life contribute to our benefit.

 

[grannymh]

The human condition, which includes our sufferings, is an inherent part of this world. It is what it is and it is what God created it to be.

I agree with one exception. Even though the first chapter of Genesis is not a scientific textbook, these words are used to describe God’s initial creation. “God looked at everything He had made, and He found it very good.” Genesis 1: 31. Adam chose to shatter his intimate relationship with his Creator. That despicable act also affected the harmony originally in creation.

Part of trusting in God is trusting that the struggles and strife humanity has to cope with in this life contribute to our benefit.

 

[simpleas]

Then why, would you suppose, that Adam didn’t trust God’s word? Do you think he truly grasped God’s glory, His wisdom, His perfect, incomparable goodness? Do you think he understood his need for God? Did Adam understand all of that perfectly and yet want to die, want to disassociate himself from the order of the universe, want to suffer the consequences that an all-wise, all-knowing God forewarned him about?

Wow, plenty of questions!

I have no idea, like we said once before in this thread, none of us personally knew the first two humans.

But this part of the above question is interesting :

want to disassociate himself from the order of the universe

In what way do you mean disassociate himself from the order of the universe? Humans are part of creation from the moment they existed . Part of the planet and the surrounding endless universe. We can not disassociate ourselves from the world, ok many have tried, but for the first two humans, before and after their choice, they are very much associated with this world.

 

[simpleas]

The human condition, which includes our sufferings, is an inherent part of this world. It is what it is and it is what God created it to be. Part of trusting in God is trusting that the struggles and strife humanity has to cope with in this life contribute to our benefit.

I would have to agree.

 

[Beircheart]

I agree with one exception. Even though the first chapter of Genesis is not a scientific textbook, these words are used to describe God’s initial creation. “God looked at everything He had made, and He found it very good.” Genesis 1: 31. Adam chose to shatter his intimate relationship with his Creator. That despicable act also affected the harmony originally in creation.

Absolutely true! God’s creation was, and still is “very good”. However, very good is a very far cry from perfection. I don’t think we, as a species, are able to cope with perfection and we’d find some way to muddle it. If, as many believe, there ever was an existence for us in some state of perfection, then I have Adam and Eve to point to as evidence.

And, the begged question is “good for what?” If, as I believe, Creation exists to be an aid in the salvation of mankind and furthermore, suffering and distress have salvific value difficult to find elsewhere, then I see no reason not to answer, “good for our own benefit.” Certainly, Adam’s transgression changed the nature of humanities relationship with God and in consequence our harmony with the Creator. I’m a bit less convinced all of creation was stained by the effect. Given our perception of everything was altered fundamentally, how would we ever know?

 

[fhansen]

Wow, plenty of questions!

I have no idea, like we said once before in this thread, none of us personally knew the first two humans.

But this part of the above question is interesting :

want to disassociate himself from the order of the universe

In what way do you mean disassociate himself from the order of the universe? Humans are part of creation from the moment they existed . Part of the planet and the surrounding endless universe. We can not disassociate ourselves from the world, ok many have tried, but for the first two humans, before and after their choice, they are very much associated with this world.

Somehow I think you ask the most questions of all simpleas -but are never satisfied with the answers (you should at least be able to take a stab at answering the ones I posed, BTW). If man has not in some way dissociated himself from the order of the universe, from the justice, the wisdom and will of God, then many of the things that we seem to almost take for granted as normal human behavior-things we should not take for granted-must be perfectly right and natural for man after all: rape, torture, murder, lies, theft, etc, etc, etc. How can we live with such contradiction, with such anomalies, with these aberrations, without distinguishing an awful brokenness in man??

 

[grannymh]

Perfection according to whose standards ???

Adam and Eve were not in the presence of the Beatific Vision. (CCC Glossary, Beatific Vision, page 867)

Another Catholic technically. Original Sin did not simply “change” the nature of humanity’s relationship with God, Original Sin destroyed that relationship.

Seems to me that with all the CAF speculations about the dawn of human history, it makes sense that there was only one real first human who had the power to remain in “friendship” with the Original Creator.

 

[grannymh]

Then why, would you suppose, that Adam didn’t trust God’s word? Do you think he truly grasped God’s glory, His wisdom, His perfect, incomparable goodness? Do you think he understood his need for God?

Obviously, Adam knew all that.

Did Adam understand all of that perfectly and yet want to die, …

Obviously, Adam understood all that within the limits of his earthly being. Adam was not in heaven in the Presence of the Beatific Vision.

Another Catholic technicality. There is nothing in the first three chapters of Genesis which states that Adam wanted to die etc., etc.

Perhaps, it would be a good idea to study the events in the first three chapters of Genesis, especially the pre-Fall events starting with Genesis 1: 26. Notice the Catholic technicality that there is only one first human and his spouse at the dawn of human history. It is not a group of humans like us who have different opinions about stuff.

 

[grannymh]

Another thought.

Going back to post 765, last sentence, what are the positive powers of Adam?

 

[fhansen]

Obviously, Adam knew all that.

If Adam truly grasped all that, if he truly comprehended the awesomeness and wonder and beauty and glory of God, and of God’s unquestionable superiority to himself, would’ve he-could’ve he- taken it upon himself to act in such a way as to basically elevate himself to a level equal to God? Isn’t this the very essence of dumb pride that shattered the relationship to begin with? And don’t you think that Adam’s exile from Eden may’ve ultimately helped him in arriving at his own metanoia?

I ask these -obvious???- questions because the story of creation and the Fall is meant for a purpose, to resonate with us-to explain us to ourselves because of the commonality that exists between Adam, Eve, and all humanity, their descendants-to us. Humanity, in Adam, fell. Adam, in humanity, or with humanity, is meant to rise again as we come to truly learn who’s Boss, why He deserves the title, why we need Him. Adam had to learn of the “value” of God. To the extent that we all come to truly grasp these things, order becomes restored to God’s universe, things are in their proper places; the King reigns as our own justice is restored at the same time.

Obviously, Adam understood all that within the limits of his earthly being. Adam was not in heaven in the Presence of the Beatific Vision.

Yes, Adam’s knowledge of God was limited compared to those in heaven, but in any case we know that his failure to acknowledge God as God was devastating. God seems to want to draw faith, hope, and love out of us, to challenge and draw and expand justice in us, beginning with Adam, without the benefit of full exposure to His glory. That apparently becomes the prize or reward, in fact, to our responding rightly to His grace, to Him.

Another Catholic technicality. There is nothing in the first three chapters of Genesis which states that Adam wanted to die etc., etc.

And yet you seem to say that Adam understood everything, he had a fully mature understanding of the Being who addressed and commanded him, and of the consequences of his disobedience. But does it make sense that perhaps Adam could’ve had to* taste* death in order to really know what death was, what it meant, in order to know that God was telling him the truth after all? And that as hard as that lesson is, it’s good in the end, as long as truth is the ultimate victor?

 

[fhansen]

Perfection according to whose standards ???

Adam and Eve were not in the presence of the Beatific Vision. (CCC Glossary, Beatific Vision, page 867)

Another Catholic technically. Original Sin did not simply “change” the nature of humanity’s relationship with God, Original Sin destroyed that relationship.

Seems to me that with all the CAF speculations about the dawn of human history, it makes sense that there was only one real first human who had the power to remain in “friendship” with the Original Creator.

Adam had the power to make that friendship even stronger, more solid. He had the opportunity to grow closer to God, more intimate. Ongoing divinization, becoming more like God, would’ve been the result.

 

[grannymh]

If Adam truly grasped all that, if he truly comprehended the awesomeness and wonder and beauty and glory of God, and of God’s unquestionable superiority to himself, would’ve he-could’ve he- taken it upon himself to act in such a way as to basically elevate himself to a level equal to God?

Truly comprehended?

What I said was: “Obviously, Adam understood all that within the limits of his earthly being. Adam was not in heaven in the Presence of the Beatific Vision.”

Isn’t this the very essence of dumb pride that shattered the relationship to begin with? And don’t you think that Adam’s exile from Eden may’ve ultimately helped him in arriving at his own metanoia?

Yes, I can consider Adam’s pride as a factor. However, at the moment, I do not have any strong speculations about what Adam did after leaving the Garden. I learned on CAF about the tradition that Adam repented. That is sufficient for me.

I ask these -obvious???- questions because the story of creation and the Fall is meant for a purpose, to resonate with us-to explain us to ourselves because of the commonality that exists between Adam, Eve, and all humanity, their descendants-to us. Humanity, in Adam, fell. Adam, in humanity, or with humanity, is meant to rise again as we come to truly learn who’s Boss, why He deserves the title, why we need Him. Adam had to learn of the “value” of God. To the extent that we all come to truly grasp these things, order becomes restored to God’s universe, things are in their proper places; the King reigns as our own justice is restored at the same time.

Yes, Adam’s knowledge of God was limited compared to those in heaven, but in any case we know that his failure to acknowledge God as God was devastating. God seems to want to draw faith, hope, and love out of us, to challenge and draw and expand justice in us, beginning with Adam, without the benefit of full exposure to His glory. That apparently becomes the prize or reward, in fact, to our responding rightly to His grace, to Him.

And yet you seem to say that Adam understood everything, he had a fully mature understanding of the Being who addressed and commanded him, and of the consequences of his disobedience. But does it make sense that perhaps Adam could’ve had to* taste* death in order to really know what death was, what it meant, in order to know that God was telling him the truth after all? And that as hard as that lesson is, it’s good in the end, as long as truth is the ultimate victor?

Since Adam is a fully-complete human, he could figure out the difference between being in a relationship with God and not being in a relationship with God. There are a few people who prefer to ignore that position. That’s life.

As for the purposes (plural intended) of the story of creation and the Fall, there are as many as the stars in the sky. And I do learn from those. However, I keep referring back to the honest understanding of Original Sin. Honest in the sense that everything is properly included, including the necessity of a Divine Restorer of the shattered relationship.

 

[fhansen]

Truly comprehended?

What I said was: “Obviously, Adam understood all that within the limits of his earthly being. Adam was not in heaven in the Presence of the Beatific Vision.”

Actually you said, “Obviously, Adam knew all that.”, in response to my questions, post #758, "Then why, would you suppose, that Adam didn’t trust God’s word? Do you think he truly grasped God’s glory, His wisdom, His perfect, incomparable goodness? Do you think he understood his need for God?

Since Adam is a fully-complete human, he could figure out the difference between being in a relationship with God and not being in a relationship with God. There are a few people who prefer to ignore that position. That’s life.

So you’re saying he wanted to die? There should be some logic in the answers to such questions-but somehow I’m not hearing it.

As for the purposes (plural intended) of the story of creation and the Fall, there are as many as the stars in the sky. And I do learn from those. However, I keep referring back to the honest understanding of Original Sin. Honest in the sense that everything is properly included, including the necessity of a Divine Restorer of the shattered relationship.

Yes, properly included. Our job is to properly understand.

 

[grannymh]

Actually you said, “Obviously, Adam knew all that.”, in response to my questions, post #758, "Then why, would you suppose, that Adam didn’t trust God’s word? Do you think he truly grasped God’s glory, His wisdom, His perfect, incomparable goodness? Do you think he understood his need for God?

So you’re saying he wanted to die? There should be some logic in the answers to such questions-but somehow I’m not hearing it.

The issue of dying appears in Genesis, chapter 3. At this point, may I respectfully ask you to review Genesis 3: 4.
But the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die!”

 

[simpleas]

Somehow I think you ask the most questions of all simpleas -but are never satisfied with the answers (you should at least be able to take a stab at answering the ones I posed, BTW). If man has not in some way dissociated himself from the order of the universe, from the justice, the wisdom and will of God, then many of the things that we seem to almost take for granted as normal human behavior-things we should not take for granted-must be perfectly right and natural for man after all: rape, torture, murder, lies, theft, etc, etc, etc. How can we live with such contradiction, with such anomalies, with these aberrations, without distinguishing an awful brokenness in man??

Yes it is true I do ask alot of question’s My first thought when I read your question’s was that they may have been covered somewhere on the thread already and I didn’t want to repeat again.

It is true that man can do many evils, but for every bad act I think there are many good acts. So there can be a brokeness in some people which causes them to do what many would see as not very humane.

So we always have a balance of good and evil. (not saying it’s fine for people to do evil) Just that it is reality in a way.

God created humans the way he wanted too. He had the power to give or take away, and he gave.

BTW I enjoy the conversation, not as a pleasure, more an appreciation when I hear how other people understand or question the creation story